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#117406 - 02/17/02 04:14 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Actually, Pittsburgh was the birthplace of many Carnegie Halls, as well as the seemingly countless Carnegie Libraries.

Dwain

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Hailun / Pearl River Pianos

Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#117407 - 02/17/02 06:02 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Derick's crimes:

1) Suggested an idea to eliminate price from the selection of a dealer. (It was just an idea.)

2) Stated a basic tenet of capitalism to lb which he took as a personal attack. (lb should stop twisting what is written just so he can start an argument and rattle on about how charitable he is.)

3) Recycled a nasty phrase on someone who used it on me first. (Wonder if I'll ever get an apology. Or even THREE like I was required to do. Probably not. I should have never confronted the frequently condescending Mr. Burton.)

4) Stated stealing, as sanctioned under capitalism, is wrong. (This was NEVER addressed by ANY poster. NEVER. God forbid someone should say something bad about capitalism and defend the 10 Commandments.)

If all this puts me on the bad-guy list, so be it.

Derick

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ]
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117408 - 02/17/02 06:35 PM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Derick's crimes:
If all this puts me on the bad-guy list, so be it.

Derick

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ][/b]


For the record, you are on my good-guy list. Let them string us up together (but only if they can sell tickets, and make a profit doing so.)


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#117409 - 02/17/02 07:31 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Derick's crimes:

1) Suggested an idea to eliminate price from the selection of a dealer. (It was just an idea.)[QB][QUOTE]

Which was no crime, and which was disputed relatively civilly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derick:
[QB]
2) Stated a basic tenet of capitalism to lb which he took as a personal attack. (lb should stop twisting what is written just so he can start an argument and rattle on about how charitable he is.) [QB][QUOTE]

Took a swipe an lb that was obvious, and lb and others recognized it for what it was. The "twisting" is what you're doing now to justify your comments. Are you already working on the wording to recast and justify the insulting and demeaning comment you just made to him in this snip? And for the record, lb hardly "started" this; he responded to it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derick:
[QB]
3) Recycled a nasty phrase on someone who used it on me first. (Wonder if I'll ever get an apology. Or even THREE like I was required to do. [QB][QUOTE]

You weren't required to; you chose to. One would have sufficed; the second two merely served to continue the argument.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derick:
[QB]
4) Stated stealing, as sanctioned under capitalism, is wrong. (This was NEVER addressed by ANY poster. NEVER. God forbid someone should say something bad about capitalism and defend the 10 Commandments.) [QB][QUOTE]

No one said anything about it because your point is obvious: stealing, whether "sanctioned" by captialism or not, is wrong. And as to your defense of the faith, I'll respond to that a little later.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derick:
[QB]
If all this puts me on the bad-guy list, so be it. [/b]


Yes, so.

Your "crimes" have nothing to do with stating a piano-related, or even a political or socio-economic belief. Anyone can have differing opinions about these things, and we all discuss these rather frequently around here. But when you take personal swipes at others - and then, try to weasel out of it, saying your (transparent) comments were merely misunderstood - and then to try to take the moral high ground by touting your religious beliefs, standing up on a cyber-soapbox piously offering to pray for people, and proclaiming yourself as the defender of the Ten Commandments - sorry, that's over my personal limit.

Derick's crimes, at least in Dwain's eyes:

1. Presupposing the motives of people he doesn't know.

2. Making insulting comments about people, and then acting shocked, misunderstood, and a victim when he's called for it.

3. Using his apparent faith as some sort of "superiority shield" to justify his presuppositions and slurs. Personally, this is Derick's bigest crime in my eyes.

I'm sure you disagree with my take on all this. Oh well, I suppose you could pray for me.

Dwain

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#117410 - 02/17/02 07:38 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Thank-you Shantinik, I appreciate it. I suspect there are others on this forum who feel the way we do. I just wish they'd come forward...

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117411 - 02/17/02 07:57 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Dwain,

I have ignored your continuous SWIPES at me long enough. I'm now fed up with your lies.

Dwain said:

"1. Presupposing the motives of people he doesn't know.

2. Making insulting comments about people, and then acting shocked, misunderstood, and a victim when he's called for it.

3. Using his apparent faith as some sort of "superiority shield" to justify his presuppositions and slurs."


1) Tell me exactly where I "presupposed" someones motives. Support this Dwain. Quote me, I'm interested in hearing how I presupposed. I presupposed NOTHING.

2) Exactly what insulting comment did I make to lb? I said that when someone gets, something, someone else gives up something. What is insulting? I used the familiar concept of "eating someone else lunch." Have you ever heard "There is no free lunch" Dwain? lb twisted what I said and you jumped on his philanthropic bandwagon to come to his rescue.

3) I don't use my faith as a superiority shield. My comments about CEO's destroying peoples lives and then making huge bonuses in a bad year were never addressed. AND, it happens every day. It's stealing Dwain, sorry to inform you of this. Perhaps I shouldn't say anything religious, in that case I'll remind you that stealing is also against the law - unless you are the CEO of a major corporation.

Perhaps I irk you because I've struck a nerve?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117412 - 02/17/02 08:18 PM Re: King of the Hill
Cork Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Dallas, TX
So . . .

. . . how 'bout them Yamahas?!?

The Barbarian

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#117413 - 02/17/02 08:42 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
All of your own words are on this same board for anyone to see. I'm not going to waste my time cutting and pasting them for you. You can go back and read them all if you'd like.

I stand behind every word I've said to you. I am not going to whine and complain about being misunderstood. You understood my criticisms perfectly.

As far as "striking a nerve," your implication is beneath contempt, and I will not grace it with a detailed defense similar to lb's. I'll just point out that you are mistakenly presupposing again.

In another sense though, you're right. You have struck a nerve, but not the one you think. You struck the mother lode of a nerve of mine when you tried to place yourself above others using a shield of religion. Your very un-religious condescenscion toward others (not your political beliefs), followed by your claim of defending the Ten Commandments, and your offer to pray for others, is what has made my blood boil.

For what it's worth, I've had agreements and disagreements with lb, and with shantinik, in the past. And we probably will in the future. But at least during those disagreements, we've never presupposed the other's motives, nor have we made personal attacks on each other. I'm convinced that even though we have particular disagreements on issues, I'd enjoy meeting and knowing either of them in person.

I don't care one bit whether you and I see eye to eye on issues. My differences with you have nothing to do with pianos, or capitalism, or stealing, or charity, or defending or disputing any other member on this board. But the way you treat other people, then claim to be a misunderstood victim, then try to cloak those actions in religion - that's too much. In plain, clear, unmistakable language, I think it's obnoxious. And I stand behind my criticism of you for it.

Dwain

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#117414 - 02/17/02 08:46 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
...and to everyone else here, I apologize. I don't want Frank to step in and close a record-setting, and generally wonderful thread. Derick can make whatever response he wishes to me. I am done with the issue, and I won't discuss it any further.

Now about those Yamahas...I understand they use the V-Pro process for manufacturing their plates. I understand that that's a superior casting method, no?...... ;\)

Dwain

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#117415 - 02/17/02 08:57 PM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
And I want to make music with everyone!

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#117416 - 02/17/02 09:23 PM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Gee Dwain, you never had problems cutting and pasting my quotes before. What's your problem now?

Perhaps it is because you can't back-up your presuppositions.

Derick

P.S. For the record, that comment about striking a nerve, that was an intentional insult. I'm glad you finally read something I wrote in the way it was intended.
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117417 - 02/17/02 09:26 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14057
Loc: Louisiana
V-pro must be better, I know because I own an inferior Chinese piano. With a wet sand-cast plate. :p :p :p :p
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117418 - 02/17/02 09:52 PM Re: King of the Hill
Cork Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain:
[QBNow about those Yamahas...I understand they use the V-Pro process for manufacturing their plates. I understand that that's a superior casting method, no?[/QB]


Hey, it works for engine blocks, why not piano plates? Besides, it lets them cast in the passages for the coolant for all those hot Yamahama players . . . They be fuel-injected and turbocharged dudes!

Righteous! Gotta get me one! Yee Haw.

Cork

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#117419 - 02/17/02 09:57 PM Re: King of the Hill
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14681
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Sorry...but there are no Chinese made pianos [to the best of my knowledge] that use true wet sand casting.

The issue of wet sand cast vs. V-Pro is a closed issue in manufacturing facts.

Yamaha uses wet sand casting exclusively on their 9' concert grand..and perhaps their higher end S-line.

So do all high end pianos,American and European.

And all...for very good reason!


Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#117420 - 02/17/02 10:25 PM Re: King of the Hill
Wayne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 73
Loc: Houston, Texas
lb[/b]

lb

You have my vote for Man of the Year. I have had an opportunity to visit the eastern block before and after the wall came down. It was like traveling back in time in a time machine. Most Americans do not have a clue about how good we have it here. Our freedoms and way of life is like no place else on earth. My experiences with the former eastern block nationals were very good. They are good hard working people.

I was once a policeman in the military as well as in the civilian sector. I might even have some patches up in my attic. If it can help someone out or brighten up someone’s day with a patch or two just e-mail me your address and I’ll see if I have any left.

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#117421 - 02/18/02 12:57 AM Re: King of the Hill
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
And I just bought an EXTRAORDINARY violin for older daughter from Bulgaria!

(you can actually see it, and its maker holding it at www.get.to/stepan/

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#117422 - 02/18/02 02:16 AM Re: King of the Hill
David Burton Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1759
Loc: Coxsackie, New York
Derick,

Although I didn’t mention you specifically by name, since there might be MANY who share your views, my comments must certainly have hit a few chords, discordant enough that you would mention me in fulminating tones several times after my last post.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
P.S. David Burton, I suggest you READ my posts before shooting your long ingnorant (sic) trap off (I'm using your words which were directed at me, so I'll recycle them and see how they make you feel). I NEVER said I'd make a stink about what Larry paid for the piano. I also NEVER said that I had the right to determine what he could make on a piano. In fact, I'll restate what I've stated at least twice; every dealer is entitled to make a profit and support themselves comfortably.[/b]


As I recall I didn’t identify YOU specifically as interested in what Larry pays for his pianos before he marks them up for sale. However if you had been obtuse enough to ask him and make a big stink about it, then my comments certainly do apply to you.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
You seem to think that because you make a statement, that it is an absolute because you said it. You are stating an opinion as I am stating mine.[/b]


Yes, I am a reasonably comfortable and CONFIDENT man and why shouldn’t that show in what I say? Must I pretend that I feel miserable about myself when I don’t just to fit in with the crowd that is always yelling “unfair?” Well I wont. If you or anyone else has valid information to impart to me I am very quick to change my opinion on a dime and express it just as confidently. I like confidence, joy, courage and optimism. It sure beats their opposites. I like these traits in myself and others who show them. I have an immediate affinity for confident people. Just the other night I stood next to the president of a world renown charitable foundation, responsible for gifts in the tens of millions of dollars per year, and his associate. The president described himself as conceited. His associate claimed to be just as conceited. They were both smiling and laughing about it. “Just the kind of people I most want to meet,” I said, “conceited and entitled to it.” They both laughed. Both are Democrats not Republicans. I met the president in his home, which had been formerly occupied by a famous Democrat president of the United States. You’ll all see how this applies as we continue.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
And in my opinion, CEO's who reap monetary benefits at the expense of employees are guilty of nothing short of armed robbery.[/b]


You are entitled to your opinion but allow me to have mine which is that your view of the “scarcity of benefits” which can be shared by employees in an enterprise clearly stamps you as a Marxist, as your opinion is not a feature of either classical or modern economics. When a CEO reaps monetary benefits it is done at the behest of and usually out of the capital of the board members and ultimately the stockholders. In fact it is the stockholders not the employees who get screwed, if they get screwed.

When the employees hold stock in the company they are wearing two hats and are living under a divided set of interests. Anyone who would take stock from a company they worked for that did not allow them to sell it until they were 55 is charitably speaking making an uneducated decision. It’s THEIR money, they should be more responsible for it.

But you come from the school of thought that thinks someone should take care of them. Who then should take care of them? The government? What price should the government employees ask for the service of taking care of all these private corporate employees? And how should those people get paid? From whom? The rich? Definition of a poor country; one that has few rich people living in it.

In a “for profit” enterprise, employees’ wages and other benefits are paid out of the operating expenses. If the enterprise is not profitable, which implies that it cannot even meet its expenses, the employees as factors of production must be reduced or the company will cease operations, which is something far worse than you can imagine, but which in your ENVY you might prefer to have happen. In bad times, usually the CEO is the first to get sacked. Simply because there is one CEO and perhaps as many as a few hundreds of thousands of employees of a company which generates billions in sales a year, such highly publicized windfalls seem more extravagant than they are, and might I ad, that it is precisely the intent of the political Left to incite such beliefs in people like you.

So, you go right along with the party line…believing that a CEO’s severance is “stealing from the employees” (little guys and gals) who were laid off so you cast about for blame….

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Only it happens to be sanctioned by capitalism. Or, more precisely, Republicans.[/b]


Oh I love it. You wouldn’t believe this if I told you but I will anyway; there are as many Democrat CEO’s as Republican, maybe more. In fact the kinds of companies that can pay people the most money are usually run by Democrat CEO’s. Most GOP types are middle class, increasingly LOWER middle class at that. Conservatives tend to gravitate to the middle income groups, liberals to the outer extremes. But as for the parties themselves, they are pretty much the same. Just go to a fundraiser for either party. The men are always trying to pick up women. There’s no real difference. But getting back to CEO’s and how much they get paid, since you are obviously so ENVIOUS….

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
In my opinion, these people are overpaid. Or, if you rather, we can take all the pressure off of them, and give them a job making minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, is far below what was established in the 1960's. The only problem with that is that we'll have to take away their comprehensive lifetime medical benefits and they'll have to scrape together what little money they have left over to pay health insurance. And, God forbid they get sick, the HMOs will make them get second and third opinions just looking for a way to deny treatment. BTW, the CEO's I know are in perfect health. And their job description basically reads "tell everyone else what to do". Even disgraced CEO's don't have it so bad. [/b]


And like most envious people, you want to see those overpaid bloated CEO’s of your imagination suffer the worst follies that you imagine the poorer orders have to endure. One of the worst features of ENVY, and in my religion it’s a deadly sin, is that one wants REVENGE.

As for Ken Lay (LOL, love the name, Mr. & Mrs. Lay? Boy did she ever have to live up to that!), the man is quite obviously a CROOK and since he has presumably committed criminal acts (why else would he choose to invoke the 5th Amendment?) he will be forced to go to trial for his crimes. One cannot roll up ALL CEO’s in Mr. Lay’s fabric, else we really would be in a lot of trouble. Since Mr. Lay’s alleged crimes amount to matters under Federal jurisdiction, I hope he gets sent to a Federal penitentiary for a good ten years. Maybe you’d prefer a life sentence for Lay, but what he did is certainly no worse than murder, rape or child molesting. He may have stolen millions but he did not as far as I know murder, maim or mutilate anyone.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
the only people I insulted were those who insulted me first; lb andd (sic) David Burton. The new Derick is all about playing nice with those who play nice with me. I may not agree with Larry or Cork, but they were not insulting. I will "play nice" with them.[/b]


Fine, don’t play “nice” with me. I’m not a particularly nice guy anyway. I am however a good man without envy of any kind.

The guiltless man recounts his supposed wrongs:

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Derick's crimes:

Suggested an idea to eliminate price from the selection of a dealer. (It was just an idea.)[/b]


But, you wouldn’t be making anything of it if you weren’t VERY disappointed that your brilliant idea didn’t take root and become the epitome of sound business practice. You got upset about it rather than LEARN from those who are in the business why it simply can’t work as simply as you would like. By the way, your idea and especially your reaction to its rejection marks you as an “idealist.” People who want to “change the world” are idealists. Usually they never bother finding out WHY the world works the way it does before they come up with their brilliant schemes for making a better world. My suggestion, if you’ll take it, is that you stop trying to make the world better in your own eyes and spend some time to find out how the world truly works. You’ll be a lot happier since you wont find your idealism challenged and your feelings hurt at every turn.

By the way pal, I can speak from experience. When I was about 19, I was a raving Trotskyite Socialist, marched in many protests for this or that, and was proud of it. Thought I knew everything and the world sucked and was in need of a big overhaul. Then I GREW UP and “sold out” and chucked all that garbage and with it all those feelings of being victimized by an UNFAIR world. The truth is hard but it IS worth it.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Stated a basic tenet of capitalism to lb which he took as a personal attack. (lb should stop twisting what is written just so he can start an argument and rattle on about how charitable he is.)[/b]


So it’s a basic tenant of capitalism that one who succeeds is to have the attitude that the rest of the world should suffer? I know of no such tenant of capitalism, but again it sure smacks of something a Marxist would say based on a “scarcity of everything” model of the world. According to Marxism, anyone who does better than anyone else, in any way, does so at the expense of everyone else. This is such a blatantly false idea, A BIG LIE, that it’s amazing that anyone would believe it. But they do because they are ENVIOUS and the idea plays right into their feelings. Feelings rather than thinking characterize the political Left, the immature and the ignorant. How old are you anyway? If you say you are 25, then I’d feel more kindly toward you, that you have time to mature. If you are as old as I am (50) or older, well then you are clearly a fool and deserve sterner treatment. Why am I giving it to you? Because you asked for it! I’m perfectly willing to oblige.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Recycled a nasty phrase on someone who used it on me first. (Wonder if I'll ever get an apology. Or even THREE like I was required to do. Probably not. I should have never confronted the frequently condescending Mr. Burton.)[/b]


REVENGE! You enjoyed doing it too. Do unto others as you suppose they have done unto you. Great! Envy always begets revenge and jealousy is always associated with envy which is why you find me “frequently condescending.” To you and others like you, I can’t help but seem like I’m coming from a higher vantage point. Or is it you who have a giant inferiority complex, like ALL social idealists?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Stated stealing, as sanctioned under capitalism, is wrong. (This was NEVER addressed by ANY poster. NEVER. God forbid someone should say something bad about capitalism and defend the 10 Commandments.) [/b]


Stealing is NOT sanctioned under capitalism, it is rather part and parcel of the philosophy of Marxism, communism and socialism; the state steals from those who do better to give to those who do not. You sir, by your words, are at least a socialist. People like Mr. Lay aren’t capitalists, they’re criminals. Capitalism is not a criminal system although we do have to put up with a few criminals from time to time. Socialism of all kinds is criminality at the state level. Corruption, by the way, as a form of buying favors from a state or business, isn’t capitalism either. It’s a moral disease that’s as old as sin itself.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
If all this puts me on the bad-guy list, so be it. [/b]


No Derick, it puts you on the socialist list, that’s all. You’ll be glad to know that there are many very wealthy socialists out there, mostly they work in Hollywood and New York. You really ought to get to know more of them. They’re quite lively people. I should know. I’ve met quite a few of them. By and large they’re far more interested in pianos and serious piano music than their more conservative brethren.

Best of luck,

The ever condescending Mr. David Burton
_________________________
David Burton's Blog
http://dpbmss041010.blogspot.com/

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#117423 - 02/18/02 02:45 AM Re: King of the Hill
jgoo Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/23/01
Posts: 3974
Loc: Seattle, Washington, USA
I haven't been keeping up with this thread at all, nor do I really wish to go through and read all 14 pages and 347 posts that currently make up the thread, but I must ask, IS this some kind of a thread for most posts? Have there ever been any in the past that have run this long? I wish that I just started reading this thread before it really started to pile up in number of posts. Oh yeah, and Jolly: you started this thread. Did you ever think that it would become so popular and set a possible record? (actually, I think that it has definatley set a record. More than one!)

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: jgoo ]
_________________________
For off-topic discussion, please feel free to visit www.coffee-room.com

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#117424 - 02/18/02 04:28 AM Re: King of the Hill
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
David,

I'll make the point again and again and again. Perhaps, someday, someone will understand.

Many US corporations, Ford, GM, Quest, IBM, Boeing, the list goes on and on base their CEO's salary on their company's profitability. Which, by the way, I have no problem with. However, profitability can be achieved thru several means. And sometimes this is accomplished thru what is known as "creative accounting" or "vapor profits".

Vapor profits are when a corporation counts the overfunding from its pension fund as part of its profit. This is perfectly legal, but it should be made illegal. Here's why:

CEO's of many corporations are reducing or eliminating defined benefit pensions and converting pensions to what is now known as cash-balance plans. When the conversion takes place, something known as "wear-away" is built in. Wear-away is the additional number of years an employee will have to work to reach the same retirement income they would have had under the defined benefit plan.

Wear-away has the side-effect of putting more money in the coffer of the corporation's pension fund. Keep in mind, that none of the money in the pension fund belongs to the company. It cannot be touched under current laws. It belongs to the retirees and future retirees.

So along comes the year end report. And low and behold, profits are up 12%. The only problem with that is, 10% came from taking away/changing their employee's pension. The CEO's and Board of Directors reap the benefits. Their bonuses go thru the roof because they, sorry to say it, stole pension money from employees. And did I mention that in the same year they reduced/eliminated employee pensions, they increase their own pensions?

Here's a link you might find interesting:
http://www.businessweek.com:/print/magazine/content/02_05/b3768111.htm?mainwindo

Socialism is capitalism, as it exists today, in reverse. Under a socialist system, if you are weathly your wealth is taken away from you and given to those with less. In capitalism, as it exits today, if you are wealthy, you take from those less fortunate (all sanctioned by the wonderful laws put in place in this country by the rich) and put their money into your pocket.

In my opinion, both systems stink. A few laws preventing corporations from stealing is all that it takes to fix the system. Yet everyone wants to turn a blind eye. The Republican's don't want a ban on soft-money, yet they claim they are not influenced by campaign donations. What is the REAL reason Mr. Cheney refuses to hand over notes on the day he met with Kenneth Lay?

Did you know that if the minimum wage had increased at the same rate the AVERAGE CEO's salary in this country had increased, a minimum wage worker would now be making $25/hour.

There is going to be a huge fall-out from this Enron mess, mark my word. Many companies will be called on the carpet. And to be perfectly honest, I can't wait.

If you and others want to walk around with blinders on, go right ahead. But one day you will discover that your capitalist heros (a.k.a. thiefs) are in some serious hot-water. Your portfolio's are going to shrink. And how I hope Mr. LB is heavily invested in all these wonderful corporations that rape the system. He'll get what he deserves; and it won't be a discount on a new car that he feels so strongly he's entitled to because "he deserves it". Deserves it for WHAT? For being LB? Oh, and Dwain, just for good measure, my prayers are with you.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#117425 - 02/18/02 05:33 AM Re: King of the Hill
freddie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/01
Posts: 185
Loc: Indiana
Question : What do you call a Yamaha vertical in a deep freeze????

Answer : " A Frosted Flake-board".


A yamaha piano gets on the phone and says "I'd like to report a fire in our showroom". The dispatcher answers "Tell us how to get there please". The Yamaha says "DUH, in that big red truck with the flashing red lights on it".

Question : How does a Yamaha salesperson turn on the light after sex???

Answer: He turns up the dimmer switch on the showroom floor.
_________________________
"The best thing about being a bachelor is that you can get into bed from either side" - James Dean

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#117426 - 02/18/02 10:35 AM Re: King of the Hill
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
I have been wondering about something, and I would like to get other opinions.

If I purchased 1000 shares of stock at $5.00 per share in the company I work for and put it in my pension plan. My investment would be $5000.00. If the company matched my investment and gave me an additional 1000 shares, my investment would still be $5000 but I would have 2000 shares with a value of $10,000. Right.

If over time the value of this stock went to $80. Per share the value would be $160,000. Add about 10% for dividends and intrest and you have a value of $176,000. Right.

If the value of this stock suddenly went to $0.00 how much money did I lose? I think that I lost $5000. But someone that this actually happened to claim that they lost $176,000.

Any opinions?

Derick

“ Your portfolio's are going to shrink. And how I hope Mr. LB is heavily invested in all these wonderful corporations that rape the system. He'll get what he deserves; and it won't be a discount on a new car that he feels so strongly he's entitled to because "he deserves it". Deserves it for WHAT? For being LB?
Derick “

I never gamble more than I afford to lose, and I only invest heavily in my own abilities. I get a better return that way. If I lost every dime I have invested today I would still wake up smiling tomorrow, and not miss it. :p :p :p

lb

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#117427 - 02/18/02 11:01 AM Re: King of the Hill
Fritz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Hatfield, PA, USA
There are different contexts in which to answer the question.

According to the IRS? If it is a retirement account, and your $5000 was pre-tax money, you lost nothing because you never had it.

But really the main flaw (IMHO) in your example is that it neglects the "time value of money." How long did you own the stock? If you put in $5000 when you were 30, and just before you retired at 65, the value avaporated, you have certainly lost much more than $5000. You have at least, lost what that $5000 would have been worth if it had been invested "differently."

Bottom line...quantifying "how much you lost" is a little artificial. There is more than one reasonable answer.

IMHO.

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#117428 - 02/18/02 11:14 AM Re: King of the Hill
Cork Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Dallas, TX
Oh, Freddie, you are BAD!

No wonder I enjoy your posts.

Cork

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#117429 - 02/18/02 12:18 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by Friday:
WOW! It took 13 pages for the heat to get turn up; is this some kind of record?

(Not the pages, but for the gloves to come off.)[/b]


Actually, the gloves were off at the beginning, then everyone got chummy (no fish jokes please!), then the gloves came off again. I'm waiting with baited breath (again, no fish jokes please) to see how this turns out! I missed two days of reading, now I'm 4 pages behind in the posts! Man, you folks all need remedial lessons in "succinct" writing!

Dan

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Dan ]

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#117430 - 02/18/02 12:31 PM Re: King of the Hill
Fritz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/12/02
Posts: 68
Loc: Hatfield, PA, USA
I'm succinct. ;-)

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#117431 - 02/18/02 12:36 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
Yes, Fritz you are! And like me, it seems we don't really have anything to say (either useful or even vituperative)...

\:\)

Dan

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#117432 - 02/18/02 12:39 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14057
Loc: Louisiana
Almost.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117433 - 02/18/02 12:51 PM Re: King of the Hill
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
Ah Jolly,

I’m very sorry \:\( to report that your post has crossed that fine line that delineates “succinct” from “obscure”.

(In other words, I’m totally without a clue as to what your “almost” post might mean…)

Dan

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#117434 - 02/18/02 01:07 PM Re: King of the Hill
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14057
Loc: Louisiana
Geez, timing is everything! Here I was trying to sneak in behind Fritz with a funny and ...oh well, better luck next time.

Of paper profits and pianos - what hurts most investors is greed. What hurts many piano companies is greed.

In the case of the investor, most people are always chasing mythical yields. I learned a long time ago, that if I can come somewhere close to a 10% average return, that is about the extent of my risk tolerance. It's all about balance and foresight. A few bonds, a piece of real estate, a few mutual funds, some cash savings, a little invested in my pension plan - returns are never stellar, but I've never had a negative quarter. Never.

Many piano companies are hurt by greed. Baldwin found ways to make its' pianos cheaper to increase profit margins. Their good name suffered, so look where they are at today. Yamaha is starting to live off of its' reputation. Did even the die-hard Yamahites think the company would ever proudly unveil a piano like the GP-1? Look at many of the fine old names sucked up by Aeolian. Think about the quality of the Memphis factory pianos. Where is Aeolian today?
Every company or investor should strive for profit. But excessive greed can financially kill a piano company, an individual investor or Enron. The ability to fail, however, is one of Capitalism's strongest points. How many companies are now checking their accounting practices? How many investors are re-evaluating their portfolios? And how many piano companies are studying the business model of Baldwin?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#117435 - 02/18/02 01:24 PM Re: King of the Hill
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dan:
Yes, Fritz you are! And like me, it seems we don't really have anything to say (either useful or even vituperative)...

\:\)

Dan[/b]



That's great, Dan. Not only do we have to fix the stock market and reconstruct a blended economics system, but now we have to figure out what "vituperative" means...... ;\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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