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#1175333 - 04/06/09 06:34 AM Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
I'm following up on a suggestion made to me by ChrisH. in the Piano Teachers Forum. I'm the OP of that long thread I began with this question.

So: how many of the excellent pianists here practice mainly on a DP and don't have a grand piano? Does/did it limit your progress?

I'm not sure that is really the question I want to ask here, because of the amazing improvements in DPs in recent years. (BTW have you seen the demos of the soon-to-be-released Roland V-Piano?)

Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


Edited by pianozuki (04/06/09 06:36 AM)
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Kawai RX-2

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#1175343 - 04/06/09 06:51 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
There are things that don't work nearly so well on DPs as on the real McCoy such as rapid repeated notes and subtle pedal effects. However, coming from a far-from wealthy family, the first piano I had to learn on was a poor old thing with a range that stopped at top A; I think the best DPs that are available today are far preferable to that.
I do a lot of practising on my DP so as not to disturb neighbours. I can easily adapt to pianos outside which I meet , some of which are so poor I would prefer to have A good DP to play by the way, but, of course,being over 60 means that for most of my life I have not used DPs. Also, I don't own a grand piano as my house is too small to accommodate one comfortably, but I've played on enough over the years to be able to cope with them when I have to.

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#1175345 - 04/06/09 06:55 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I really don't play post 1800 music at home anymore, it's too noisy. Instead I use a square piano (quite cheap over here) or a clavichord.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1175353 - 04/06/09 07:19 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1175354 - 04/06/09 07:20 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keyboardklutz]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Pianozuki, I'm just a beginner so I can't answer the question you are asking, but being one of the 'troublemakers' in the other thread I'm very interested in hearing the responses. Thanks for following up on this.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1175369 - 04/06/09 07:54 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
appleman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 188
When I left my parents, I purchased a used Roland KR-103, because it was cheapish and I knew I was going to move at least twice, which is something I couldn't have done easily with an acoustic. My playing has improved quite a bit since then, since I've gained a lot more practice time and getting a new piano is always inspiring.

My dynamics are now behind compared to the rest of my abilities, so I would like a real piano again, but I couldn't see myself where I am WITHOUT a digital piano.
_________________________
Dr. Appleman, former NASA engineer, Empire of Earth and B.S. of Ninjutsu at MIT.

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#1175383 - 04/06/09 08:30 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: appleman]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there. The subtlety of the acoustic piano does allow me to play more expressively on it than on the DP.

But the ability to practice virtually anytime I want on the DP certainly makes up for what little it lacks.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1175397 - 04/06/09 09:07 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: epf
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there.
Ed


Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.

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#1175398 - 04/06/09 09:10 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
I'm the OP.

If you mention a DP, please give its make and model.

Thanks
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175416 - 04/06/09 09:37 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Originally Posted By: epf
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there.
Ed


Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.


Do you think a good Kawai DP might meet your test? Listen to these demos:
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/sound_demos/ca_demos/CA%20Concert%20Grand.wma

And

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/sound_demos/cp_demos/CP%20Concert%20Grand.wma

(Sorry, I can't figure out which DPs these come from)
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175418 - 04/06/09 09:43 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that pianio

i'm a beginner too and i will buy an acoustic soon. the reason is because when i go to classes , the difference of strength needed is dramatic. my hands feel so weak on the acoustic that i really do not want to spend much more time playing on a dp only.

whne i buy the acoustic, it will definitely have a silent system.

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#1175431 - 04/06/09 09:55 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: izaldu]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that piano

If not, wouldn't that constitute fraud?
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175450 - 04/06/09 10:40 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
I guess it would, yes - but i have no idea whether thats the case or not.

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#1175452 - 04/06/09 10:47 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
I'm the OP.

If you mention a DP, please give its make and model.

Thanks
Sure -- I have a Privia PX-800. I selected that based upon the similarity of touch to the M&H. The sound is slightly different -- a richer bass and a much, much thinner treble. Still, I like it.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175463 - 04/06/09 10:58 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.
Haven't played either of those on this particular piano (or, for that matter, on the M&H). I'm not sure my old arthritic fingers will move fast enough to provide sufficient test for that today, but in my younger days I could play nearly fast enough for it. what I have played in terms of repeating notes is Albeniz' Leyenda. I will admit, however, that this latter is allegro ma non troppo and not as fast as the Tarantella so it may not be a reasonable comparison. I have found, however, that unless I'm really sloppy in my fingering I can play repeated notes as fast on the DP as I can on the M&H. But, then again, we have my own physical limitations which seem to be more a limit than the piano itself.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175504 - 04/06/09 11:58 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: epf
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.
Haven't played either of those on this particular piano (or, for that matter, on the M&H). I'm not sure my old arthritic fingers will move fast enough to provide sufficient test for that today, but in my younger days I could play nearly fast enough for it. what I have played in terms of repeating notes is Albeniz' Leyenda. I will admit, however, that this latter is allegro ma non troppo and not as fast as the Tarantella so it may not be a reasonable comparison. I have found, however, that unless I'm really sloppy in my fingering I can play repeated notes as fast on the DP as I can on the M&H. But, then again, we have my own physical limitations which seem to be more a limit than the piano itself.

Ed


Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
The Chopin demos posted elsewhere don't really address the problem which I mentioned.

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#1175513 - 04/06/09 12:17 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
.....

Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
...


That could have to do specifically with the level of polyphony supported. If your fingers are flying fast enough to exceed the level then there certainly could be issues.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1175515 - 04/06/09 12:18 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
you'll be fine..

learning and acquiring skill is what is important..

i think it is easy to quickly acquire the technique to play different keyboards. i regularly play on different organs.. and adjust and learn quickly - how to adapt.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#1175517 - 04/06/09 12:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: apple*]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: apple*
you'll be fine..


Who's the "you"? Me?
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175518 - 04/06/09 12:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
The Chopin demos posted elsewhere don't really address the problem which I mentioned.
I have the score for the Tarantella so I'll give it a try. On the other hand, the Scarlatti K141 does provide some short passages of rapidly repeating notes that require finger shifts to pull off and I used to play that. I'll pull it out and see how the PX-800 responds to those demands.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175522 - 04/06/09 12:25 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
.....

Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
...


That could have to do specifically with the level of polyphony supported. If your fingers are flying fast enough to exceed the level then there certainly could be issues.
I suspect what he is talking about is more the ability of the key to support multiple strikes in a short period of time, not the level of polyphony. In this regard, even an upright loses a little to a grand because of the different orientation of the hammer structure. I suspect the mechanism for most DPs simply wasn't designed to fully duplicate the action of an acoustic piano, but more to duplicate the feel.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175736 - 04/06/09 07:46 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6062
Loc: St. Louis area
I'm not sure where I'd be if I started on a DP (I have a Yamaha P200), but I'm certain Liszt's Tarentella would be out of the question on this instrument. The issue of repeated notes is still not resolved for these beasts. It's also more difficult to play fast passages quietly, but at least that can be done.
I go to the music stores often to see if something new compares and it doesn't.
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It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1175742 - 04/06/09 07:57 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6062
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that piano

If not, wouldn't that constitute fraud?


LOL, I'm sure they covered their butts on that one. I've heard the same demo's on a variety of keyboards over the years. It's often a midi sequence designed only to show off the sonic capabilities of the instrument.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1175825 - 04/06/09 10:38 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Damon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Okay, now that I'm home I've tried my DP with the fastest passages with multiple key strikes -- and I think my fingers are too slow to hit the limit or, perhaps, I'm right at the limit. No matter how fast I was, the key was back and ready for the next note. As I said earlier, I'm getting old and I don't think my fingers are as fast as they once were -- but if that's the case it's not the DP holding me back. As with all comparisons of this nature, YMMV.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175829 - 04/06/09 10:49 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17822
Loc: Victoria, BC
My response is undoubtedly "unfair" because I have had little experience with the latest generation of digital pianos.

I like to think that the repertoire I play requires very subtle nuances in touch, in voicing and in pedaling, and with my limited experience with digital pianos, I nevertheless can not imagine a digital responding to to my musical needs as satisfactorily as a good grand.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1175841 - 04/06/09 11:14 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: BruceD
My response is undoubtedly "unfair" because I have had little experience with the latest generation of digital pianos.

I like to think that the repertoire I play requires very subtle nuances in touch, in voicing and in pedaling, and with my limited experience with digital pianos, I nevertheless can not imagine a digital responding to to my musical needs as satisfactorily as a good grand.
Bruce,

My spinet is not as responsive as a grand and my DP is also not as responsive as a grand. It does have better pedaling than the spinet, but still not quite what a grand offers. From a dynamic standpoint I'm able to get a reasonable pp and a marginally acceptable ppp at the other end of the spectrum the f is good while the ff is acceptable -- the fff just doesn't quite get there.

Still, for what I play these days it's not a limit. In fact, I think I can honestly say that had I had this particular DP from the beginning my skills would not be far off what I have now. I think I'm more limited by my own abilities than by the DP.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175850 - 04/06/09 11:30 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Kreisler]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.

Agreed. My DP (A very nice one; I still have it) got me started, but without my Steinway I would be nowhere near where I am now.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1175879 - 04/07/09 12:41 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17822
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: epf
Bruce,

My spinet is not as responsive as a grand and my DP is also not as responsive as a grand. It does have better pedaling than the spinet, but still not quite what a grand offers. From a dynamic standpoint I'm able to get a reasonable pp and a marginally acceptable ppp at the other end of the spectrum the f is good while the ff is acceptable -- the fff just doesn't quite get there.

Still, for what I play these days it's not a limit. In fact, I think I can honestly say that had I had this particular DP from the beginning my skills would not be far off what I have now. I think I'm more limited by my own abilities than by the DP.

Ed


My concern would be - and I could only allay that concern by having the opportunity to play a quality DP - is whether or not a DP could respond to the very subtle voicing needs of some of my repertoire. I'm working on some transcriptions by Liszt of Lieder of Schubert and one Liszt transcription of a Mendelssohn Lied where, within a given range of two octaves, there are melody notes that pass between the two hands while accompaniment figures move both above and below the melody line. I have a similar challenge in the Op 117, No 1 Intermezzo of Brahms where the melody line has to be brought out in the right hand by the fingers between the thumb and fifth fingers which are playing an octave accompaniment.

So, my concern is not that of the range of dynamics of the instrument - or the limitations of that range - but the ability of the instrument to respond to such subtleties of touch that will bring out two or three levels of sound simultaneously, all within an overall dynamic of between mp and mf .

I would also be concerned about whether or not the digital piano can respond to the needs for half-pedaling, quarter-pedaling and and flutter pedaling.

Can a digital piano respond to such needs?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1175918 - 04/07/09 04:33 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Kreisler]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.


Me neither.

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#1175983 - 04/07/09 08:26 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: BruceD
My concern would be - and I could only allay that concern by having the opportunity to play a quality DP - is whether or not a DP could respond to the very subtle voicing needs of some of my repertoire. I'm working on some transcriptions by Liszt of Lieder of Schubert and one Liszt transcription of a Mendelssohn Lied where, within a given range of two octaves, there are melody notes that pass between the two hands while accompaniment figures move both above and below the melody line. I have a similar challenge in the Op 117, No 1 Intermezzo of Brahms where the melody line has to be brought out in the right hand by the fingers between the thumb and fifth fingers which are playing an octave accompaniment.

So, my concern is not that of the range of dynamics of the instrument - or the limitations of that range - but the ability of the instrument to respond to such subtleties of touch that will bring out two or three levels of sound simultaneously, all within an overall dynamic of between mp and mf .

I would also be concerned about whether or not the digital piano can respond to the needs for half-pedaling, quarter-pedaling and and flutter pedaling.

Can a digital piano respond to such needs?

Regards,
Bruce,

My DP supports half and flutter pedaling. Although it recognizes quarter pedaling (in fact, it's capable or recognizing any position between full up and full down) the sampling did not include a quarter pedal and so it would be simulated via filters and that simulation would be the same as half-pedaling.

I think you'd be pleased at the way you can bring out the various voices in the music. One of the pieces my children used to love hearing me play was the Moonlight Sonata with the melody singing out in the little finger of the right hand -- and this piano is certainly capable of that. One of my friends who is a Bach specialist is able to bring out two and three voices with no effort at all. On that score (no pun intended) the DP would serve well.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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by Delphian2001
07/22/14 04:20 PM
Where is the new blood?
by Markarian
07/22/14 03:53 PM
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