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#1175333 - 04/06/09 06:34 AM Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
I'm following up on a suggestion made to me by ChrisH. in the Piano Teachers Forum. I'm the OP of that long thread I began with this question.

So: how many of the excellent pianists here practice mainly on a DP and don't have a grand piano? Does/did it limit your progress?

I'm not sure that is really the question I want to ask here, because of the amazing improvements in DPs in recent years. (BTW have you seen the demos of the soon-to-be-released Roland V-Piano?)

Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


Edited by pianozuki (04/06/09 06:36 AM)
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#1175343 - 04/06/09 06:51 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
There are things that don't work nearly so well on DPs as on the real McCoy such as rapid repeated notes and subtle pedal effects. However, coming from a far-from wealthy family, the first piano I had to learn on was a poor old thing with a range that stopped at top A; I think the best DPs that are available today are far preferable to that.
I do a lot of practising on my DP so as not to disturb neighbours. I can easily adapt to pianos outside which I meet , some of which are so poor I would prefer to have A good DP to play by the way, but, of course,being over 60 means that for most of my life I have not used DPs. Also, I don't own a grand piano as my house is too small to accommodate one comfortably, but I've played on enough over the years to be able to cope with them when I have to.

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#1175345 - 04/06/09 06:55 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I really don't play post 1800 music at home anymore, it's too noisy. Instead I use a square piano (quite cheap over here) or a clavichord.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1175353 - 04/06/09 07:19 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13811
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1175354 - 04/06/09 07:20 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keyboardklutz]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Pianozuki, I'm just a beginner so I can't answer the question you are asking, but being one of the 'troublemakers' in the other thread I'm very interested in hearing the responses. Thanks for following up on this.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1175369 - 04/06/09 07:54 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
appleman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 188
When I left my parents, I purchased a used Roland KR-103, because it was cheapish and I knew I was going to move at least twice, which is something I couldn't have done easily with an acoustic. My playing has improved quite a bit since then, since I've gained a lot more practice time and getting a new piano is always inspiring.

My dynamics are now behind compared to the rest of my abilities, so I would like a real piano again, but I couldn't see myself where I am WITHOUT a digital piano.
_________________________
Dr. Appleman, former NASA engineer, Empire of Earth and B.S. of Ninjutsu at MIT.

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#1175383 - 04/06/09 08:30 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: appleman]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there. The subtlety of the acoustic piano does allow me to play more expressively on it than on the DP.

But the ability to practice virtually anytime I want on the DP certainly makes up for what little it lacks.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1175397 - 04/06/09 09:07 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: epf
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there.
Ed


Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.

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#1175398 - 04/06/09 09:10 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
I'm the OP.

If you mention a DP, please give its make and model.

Thanks
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175416 - 04/06/09 09:37 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Originally Posted By: epf
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there.
Ed


Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.


Do you think a good Kawai DP might meet your test? Listen to these demos:
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/sound_demos/ca_demos/CA%20Concert%20Grand.wma

And

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/sound_demos/cp_demos/CP%20Concert%20Grand.wma

(Sorry, I can't figure out which DPs these come from)
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Kawai RX-2

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#1175418 - 04/06/09 09:43 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1255
Loc:
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that pianio

i'm a beginner too and i will buy an acoustic soon. the reason is because when i go to classes , the difference of strength needed is dramatic. my hands feel so weak on the acoustic that i really do not want to spend much more time playing on a dp only.

whne i buy the acoustic, it will definitely have a silent system.

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#1175431 - 04/06/09 09:55 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: izaldu]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that piano

If not, wouldn't that constitute fraud?
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Kawai RX-2

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#1175450 - 04/06/09 10:40 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1255
Loc:
I guess it would, yes - but i have no idea whether thats the case or not.

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#1175452 - 04/06/09 10:47 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
I'm the OP.

If you mention a DP, please give its make and model.

Thanks
Sure -- I have a Privia PX-800. I selected that based upon the similarity of touch to the M&H. The sound is slightly different -- a richer bass and a much, much thinner treble. Still, I like it.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175463 - 04/06/09 10:58 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.
Haven't played either of those on this particular piano (or, for that matter, on the M&H). I'm not sure my old arthritic fingers will move fast enough to provide sufficient test for that today, but in my younger days I could play nearly fast enough for it. what I have played in terms of repeating notes is Albeniz' Leyenda. I will admit, however, that this latter is allegro ma non troppo and not as fast as the Tarantella so it may not be a reasonable comparison. I have found, however, that unless I'm really sloppy in my fingering I can play repeated notes as fast on the DP as I can on the M&H. But, then again, we have my own physical limitations which seem to be more a limit than the piano itself.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175504 - 04/06/09 11:58 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Wood-demon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 607
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: epf
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.
Haven't played either of those on this particular piano (or, for that matter, on the M&H). I'm not sure my old arthritic fingers will move fast enough to provide sufficient test for that today, but in my younger days I could play nearly fast enough for it. what I have played in terms of repeating notes is Albeniz' Leyenda. I will admit, however, that this latter is allegro ma non troppo and not as fast as the Tarantella so it may not be a reasonable comparison. I have found, however, that unless I'm really sloppy in my fingering I can play repeated notes as fast on the DP as I can on the M&H. But, then again, we have my own physical limitations which seem to be more a limit than the piano itself.

Ed


Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
The Chopin demos posted elsewhere don't really address the problem which I mentioned.

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#1175513 - 04/06/09 12:17 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
.....

Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
...


That could have to do specifically with the level of polyphony supported. If your fingers are flying fast enough to exceed the level then there certainly could be issues.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1175515 - 04/06/09 12:18 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
you'll be fine..

learning and acquiring skill is what is important..

i think it is easy to quickly acquire the technique to play different keyboards. i regularly play on different organs.. and adjust and learn quickly - how to adapt.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#1175517 - 04/06/09 12:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: apple*]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: apple*
you'll be fine..


Who's the "you"? Me?
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175518 - 04/06/09 12:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
The Chopin demos posted elsewhere don't really address the problem which I mentioned.
I have the score for the Tarantella so I'll give it a try. On the other hand, the Scarlatti K141 does provide some short passages of rapidly repeating notes that require finger shifts to pull off and I used to play that. I'll pull it out and see how the PX-800 responds to those demands.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1175522 - 04/06/09 12:25 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
.....

Fairly measured repeated notes ore OK but those of the Gatling-gun variety which require rapid changes of fingers to produce, I have found, do not "come-off" on DPs at all reliably.
...


That could have to do specifically with the level of polyphony supported. If your fingers are flying fast enough to exceed the level then there certainly could be issues.
I suspect what he is talking about is more the ability of the key to support multiple strikes in a short period of time, not the level of polyphony. In this regard, even an upright loses a little to a grand because of the different orientation of the hammer structure. I suspect the mechanism for most DPs simply wasn't designed to fully duplicate the action of an acoustic piano, but more to duplicate the feel.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175736 - 04/06/09 07:46 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6222
Loc: St. Louis area
I'm not sure where I'd be if I started on a DP (I have a Yamaha P200), but I'm certain Liszt's Tarentella would be out of the question on this instrument. The issue of repeated notes is still not resolved for these beasts. It's also more difficult to play fast passages quietly, but at least that can be done.
I go to the music stores often to see if something new compares and it doesn't.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1175742 - 04/06/09 07:57 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6222
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
That demo comes in my dp too, the kawai cl30 ... not sure if it was originally performed on that piano

If not, wouldn't that constitute fraud?


LOL, I'm sure they covered their butts on that one. I've heard the same demo's on a variety of keyboards over the years. It's often a midi sequence designed only to show off the sonic capabilities of the instrument.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1175825 - 04/06/09 10:38 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Damon]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Okay, now that I'm home I've tried my DP with the fastest passages with multiple key strikes -- and I think my fingers are too slow to hit the limit or, perhaps, I'm right at the limit. No matter how fast I was, the key was back and ready for the next note. As I said earlier, I'm getting old and I don't think my fingers are as fast as they once were -- but if that's the case it's not the DP holding me back. As with all comparisons of this nature, YMMV.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175829 - 04/06/09 10:49 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18221
Loc: Victoria, BC
My response is undoubtedly "unfair" because I have had little experience with the latest generation of digital pianos.

I like to think that the repertoire I play requires very subtle nuances in touch, in voicing and in pedaling, and with my limited experience with digital pianos, I nevertheless can not imagine a digital responding to to my musical needs as satisfactorily as a good grand.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#1175841 - 04/06/09 11:14 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: BruceD
My response is undoubtedly "unfair" because I have had little experience with the latest generation of digital pianos.

I like to think that the repertoire I play requires very subtle nuances in touch, in voicing and in pedaling, and with my limited experience with digital pianos, I nevertheless can not imagine a digital responding to to my musical needs as satisfactorily as a good grand.
Bruce,

My spinet is not as responsive as a grand and my DP is also not as responsive as a grand. It does have better pedaling than the spinet, but still not quite what a grand offers. From a dynamic standpoint I'm able to get a reasonable pp and a marginally acceptable ppp at the other end of the spectrum the f is good while the ff is acceptable -- the fff just doesn't quite get there.

Still, for what I play these days it's not a limit. In fact, I think I can honestly say that had I had this particular DP from the beginning my skills would not be far off what I have now. I think I'm more limited by my own abilities than by the DP.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175850 - 04/06/09 11:30 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Kreisler]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.

Agreed. My DP (A very nice one; I still have it) got me started, but without my Steinway I would be nowhere near where I am now.
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1175879 - 04/07/09 12:41 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18221
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: epf
Bruce,

My spinet is not as responsive as a grand and my DP is also not as responsive as a grand. It does have better pedaling than the spinet, but still not quite what a grand offers. From a dynamic standpoint I'm able to get a reasonable pp and a marginally acceptable ppp at the other end of the spectrum the f is good while the ff is acceptable -- the fff just doesn't quite get there.

Still, for what I play these days it's not a limit. In fact, I think I can honestly say that had I had this particular DP from the beginning my skills would not be far off what I have now. I think I'm more limited by my own abilities than by the DP.

Ed


My concern would be - and I could only allay that concern by having the opportunity to play a quality DP - is whether or not a DP could respond to the very subtle voicing needs of some of my repertoire. I'm working on some transcriptions by Liszt of Lieder of Schubert and one Liszt transcription of a Mendelssohn Lied where, within a given range of two octaves, there are melody notes that pass between the two hands while accompaniment figures move both above and below the melody line. I have a similar challenge in the Op 117, No 1 Intermezzo of Brahms where the melody line has to be brought out in the right hand by the fingers between the thumb and fifth fingers which are playing an octave accompaniment.

So, my concern is not that of the range of dynamics of the instrument - or the limitations of that range - but the ability of the instrument to respond to such subtleties of touch that will bring out two or three levels of sound simultaneously, all within an overall dynamic of between mp and mf .

I would also be concerned about whether or not the digital piano can respond to the needs for half-pedaling, quarter-pedaling and and flutter pedaling.

Can a digital piano respond to such needs?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1175918 - 04/07/09 04:33 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Kreisler]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7974
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


No.


Me neither.

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#1175983 - 04/07/09 08:26 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
epf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: BruceD
My concern would be - and I could only allay that concern by having the opportunity to play a quality DP - is whether or not a DP could respond to the very subtle voicing needs of some of my repertoire. I'm working on some transcriptions by Liszt of Lieder of Schubert and one Liszt transcription of a Mendelssohn Lied where, within a given range of two octaves, there are melody notes that pass between the two hands while accompaniment figures move both above and below the melody line. I have a similar challenge in the Op 117, No 1 Intermezzo of Brahms where the melody line has to be brought out in the right hand by the fingers between the thumb and fifth fingers which are playing an octave accompaniment.

So, my concern is not that of the range of dynamics of the instrument - or the limitations of that range - but the ability of the instrument to respond to such subtleties of touch that will bring out two or three levels of sound simultaneously, all within an overall dynamic of between mp and mf .

I would also be concerned about whether or not the digital piano can respond to the needs for half-pedaling, quarter-pedaling and and flutter pedaling.

Can a digital piano respond to such needs?

Regards,
Bruce,

My DP supports half and flutter pedaling. Although it recognizes quarter pedaling (in fact, it's capable or recognizing any position between full up and full down) the sampling did not include a quarter pedal and so it would be simulated via filters and that simulation would be the same as half-pedaling.

I think you'd be pleased at the way you can bring out the various voices in the music. One of the pieces my children used to love hearing me play was the Moonlight Sonata with the melody singing out in the little finger of the right hand -- and this piano is certainly capable of that. One of my friends who is a Bach specialist is able to bring out two and three voices with no effort at all. On that score (no pun intended) the DP would serve well.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

YouTube Channel

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#1175986 - 04/07/09 08:41 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
epf, please tell us the make and model of your DP.

(Ah, your profile says it's a Privia PX-800. By Casio.)

Thanks


Edited by pianozuki (04/07/09 08:59 AM)
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1175990 - 04/07/09 08:55 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
(BTW have you seen the demos of the soon-to-be-released Roland V-Piano?)


kennychaffin has just posted this review of the Roland V-Piano in the Piano Teachers Forum.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1176015 - 04/07/09 10:06 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
(BTW have you seen the demos of the soon-to-be-released Roland V-Piano?)


kennychaffin has just posted this review of the Roland V-Piano in the Piano Teachers Forum.


Well, I would call it less of a "review" and more of an opinion/reaction as I didn't really get into any of the technical details. wink



Edited by kennychaffin (04/07/09 10:07 AM)
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#1176318 - 04/07/09 07:42 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
RobKeymar Offline
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I just bought the 340 and couldn't be happier. It is a nice complement to the Mason and Hamlin.

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#1176340 - 04/07/09 08:40 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: RobKeymar]
kennychaffin Offline
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Originally Posted By: RobKeymar
I just bought the 340 and couldn't be happier. It is a nice complement to the Mason and Hamlin.


340?
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#1176411 - 04/07/09 10:08 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
pianozuki Offline
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Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: RobKeymar
I just bought the 340 and couldn't be happier. It is a nice complement to the Mason and Hamlin.


340?



The only 340 I know of is the Yamaha CLP340. See http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/List/ModelSeriesList.html?CTID=203500
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#1176431 - 04/07/09 10:47 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
BruceD Online   content
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With the evolution of computer and electronics technology - and with the modern grand practically rooted in the technology of the late 19th- early 20th-century - I would be concerned that any digital piano I might consider buying would be superceded by a later and better model before I had a chance to get my purchase home.

What's the longevity of a digital piano? How long are parts available?

Regards,
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#1176443 - 04/07/09 11:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
pianozuki Offline
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With the evolution of computer and electronics technology - and with the modern grand practically rooted in the technology of the late 19th- early 20th-century - I would be concerned that any digital piano I might consider buying would be superceded by a later and better model before I had a chance to get my purchase home.

What's the longevity of a digital piano? How long are parts available?


After some substitution we have:

With the evolution of computer and electronics technology - and with the modern typewriter practically rooted in the technology of the late 19th- early 20th-century - I would be concerned that any digital PC I might consider buying would be superceded by a later and better model before I had a chance to get my purchase home.

What's the longevity of a PC? How long are parts available?


My point being that the grand will become obsolete -- and to borrow from the Roland marketing hype of the V-Piano -- it's already happening.
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#1176449 - 04/07/09 11:38 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianozuki
My point being that the grand will become obsolete --

Well, think that if it makes you happy. You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened. I'm not quite sure why you have so much emotion invested in this (here and in the teachers' forum). If you prefer a DP, then play one. If you prefer an acoustic, then play that, like I do. If someone tells you they won't teach you if you have a DP, then find another teacher. You don't have to accurately predict the extinction of the acoustic piano in order to play what you like, do you?

And a random thought, which may or may not be relevant: Electric guitars have been around for a very long time. Acoustics are still being made and played.
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#1176456 - 04/08/09 12:00 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: currawong]
pianozuki Offline
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You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened.

And you can't prove that the sun will set until it's happened. (I'm trying like crazy to put a smiley in here but can't figure out how to :-))
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#1176459 - 04/08/09 12:03 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianozuki
You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened.

And you can't prove that the sun will set until it's happened. (I'm trying like crazy to put a smiley in here but can't figure out how to :-))

Just type a : and then a ) and voila, smile

OK, so delete the sentence about proving it beforehand and address the rest of what I posted.
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#1176465 - 04/08/09 12:25 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
epf Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
With the evolution of computer and electronics technology - and with the modern grand practically rooted in the technology of the late 19th- early 20th-century - I would be concerned that any digital piano I might consider buying would be superceded by a later and better model before I had a chance to get my purchase home.
That's always a possibility, especially with the advent of new methods of generating the "piano sound." Currently most DPs use sampling technology. My Privia PX-800 uses three different levels of sampling (soft, medium and loud) but they did not sample all 88 keys, they used a subset. Notes not sampled are interpolated from the samples they do have. The current technology for software pianos is modeling in which the components of the piano are modeled and the resulting sound is generated in ways that have the potential of being very, very close to the real thing. Neither technology is anywhere near as far as it can go, so there will continue to be improvements. Other areas for improvement are the "mechanical" aspects -- the keys themselves: their feel and responsiveness. It does not appear, however, that there is a "Moore's Law" for digital pianos (Moore's Law deals with the power of the computer based upon the density of the chip).

Originally Posted By: BruceD
What's the longevity of a digital piano? How long are parts available?
I know of some that have lasted for 10 years or more. Mine is over a year old and is still being marketed so I presume that should I need a part it would be available for the foreseeable future.

However, unlike some prognosticators, I don't see the DP replacing the acoustic piano. I think the "real thing" will always have a market, although the market will shrink and the price will, therefore, increase. And, of course, if I had room for a good grand piano I would have one instead of my spinet.

Ed
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#1176472 - 04/08/09 01:07 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
fredericch Offline
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I'm coming to this thread late, but I thought this would be an interesting personal contribution:

I use almost exclusively a Yamaha Grantouch, and have for close to 10 years. I find the action allows me to stay in close touch with the concert grands that I have to perform on, and the sound is quite good.
Of course, I play concert grands regularly and often, and I also have had an S4 at home as well for the past 4 years, but I rarely play it (once a week for an hour?). I never get to practicing until the night, and then everyone is asleep!

I find the Grantouch an incredible practice instrument. I use it with headphones sometimes, especially wearing it only on the left ear or only on the right ear to stimulate left or right brain thinking.
I also use it with volume on very low, which forces me to listen more closely and to play more forcefully, for muscle training.
I have been impressed with the amount of coloring and control I can practice on the Grantouch, and the pedaling is quite sensitive. I miss having a real shift pedal, though. However, not having it makes me really focus on it when I do come to a real piano and a real shift pedal.
I have tried practicing for long periods on clavinovas (at the Newport Festival, for example) and that is SO tiring and unpleasant acoustically. Mostly, the physical effects are terrible.

I recommend the Grantouch for anyone who has any professional experience. The real piano touch makes up for everything else that might be lacking.

Fredericch

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#1176473 - 04/08/09 01:10 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: fredericch]
fredericch Offline
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Also, perhaps we should start a thread on the usefulness of dummy keyboards and even cardboard keyboards. I had people in my workshops work on cardboard keyboards, and the results were fantastic!

Wasn't it Leon Fleisher who was running through a concerto with George Szell, "playing" it on a table because there was no piano. Szell pointed out a mistake that Fleisher made, and Fleisher apologized, saying that he had never played that table before.

Fredericch

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#1176478 - 04/08/09 01:38 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: fredericch]
Andromaque Offline
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Frederic,
You made some pertinent comments, but would you perhaps consider answering the OP's question directly: "Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?".
I don't think anyone here has denied the beneficial aspects of owning a DP, especially for silent practice. But when the would-be pianist is in the beginning or even intermediate stages, would you support their exclusive use of a DP???
I know you are involved in teaching( although probably not beginners), but I am sure you can extrapolate and tell us if you would recommend it to your students.

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#1176479 - 04/08/09 01:40 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: currawong]
pianozuki Offline
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Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened.

And you can't prove that the sun will set until it's happened. (I'm trying like crazy to put a smiley in here but can't figure out how to :-))

Just type a : and then a ) and voila, smile

OK, so delete the sentence about proving it beforehand and address the rest of what I posted.


Hey, thanks for the smiley instruction. smile
So frown is frown
How about mad or laugh?

Yes, I was trying to get back to my "piano" just then, so I neglected your other points. Sorry. OK, FWIW here goes.

Well, think that if it makes you happy. You can't prove it (obviously) until it's happened. I'm not quite sure why you have so much emotion invested in this (here and in the teachers' forum).

I don't know about the amount of emotion, but I sure want to make the right decision about my next DP or AP. Other than my teacher, I have access to no other advice outside of PW.

If you prefer a DP, then play one. If you prefer an acoustic, then play that, like I do.

I am drawn to the DP idea, but that shouldn't be the only factor to consider.

If someone tells you they won't teach you if you have a DP, then find another teacher.

I don't believe I said that that was her position.

You don't have to accurately predict the extinction of the acoustic piano in order to play what you like, do you?

Shall we go around again?

And a random thought, which may or may not be relevant: Electric guitars have been around for a very long time. Acoustics are still being made and played.

I'm not sure the electric guitar analogy works here. The DP is approaching the AP in both touch and tone. The electric guitar's purpose doesn't seem to be to imitate the acoustic guitar--but I sure don't know much about them.
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#1176483 - 04/08/09 01:52 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
Andromaque Offline
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Pianozuki, I may be wrong but it seems to me that you are asking for endorsement of your-already ordered- DP, rather than advice. Enjoy it and best of luck!

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#1176485 - 04/08/09 01:54 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
chihuahua Offline
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Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?

Problem is - I wouldn't want to be where I am today; I would have done better if I were to join a local conservatory. Or perhaps my parents could be rich and get me a concert grand when I was using diapers.

Any thoughts?
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#1176486 - 04/08/09 01:56 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: chihuahua]
chihuahua Offline
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Pianozuki, are you trained in the Suzuki technique? Or is your name -zuki related e.g. Mikazuki etc?

Cheers mate, and have a beer (or cognac, which is better!)
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#1176493 - 04/08/09 02:13 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Andromaque]
pianozuki Offline
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Originally Posted By: Andromaque
Pianozuki, I may be wrong but it seems to me that you are asking for endorsement of your-already ordered- DP, rather than advice. Enjoy it and best of luck!


ohmygod, I forgot to mention that because of the info I was gaining here, I cancelled that Kawai CE200 order.

My apologies to all for not informing the thread sooner.
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#1176498 - 04/08/09 02:29 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: chihuahua]
pianozuki Offline
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Originally Posted By: chihuahua
Pianozuki, are you trained in the Suzuki technique? Or is your name -zuki related e.g. Mikazuki etc?

Cheers mate, and have a beer (or cognac, which is better!)


Ha! I use the -zuki a lot when joining forums. They ask for a unique name, and I find an easy way to create a name that is both meaningful to me and easily remembered, is to pick a word relevant to the forum and add -zuki to it. Almost guaranteed to be unique. -zuki is a Japanese suffix added to nouns to indicate a person who likes that thing. Thus kamerazuki, obamazuki, yamahazuki, pianozuki. Also, "suki" means "to like" So piano+suki phonologically becomes pianozuki.

Now I'll go have that beer.
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#1176510 - 04/08/09 03:35 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: epf]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: epf

However, unlike some prognosticators, I don't see the DP replacing the acoustic piano. I think the "real thing" will always have a market, although the market will shrink and the price will, therefore, increase.


One is the real thing and the other is an imitation of it or a substitute for it. No matter how good the imitation is, I don't see how it could replace the real thing. DISplacing it is a different thing.

It seems a little weird to me that no one in the thread has mentioned what seems to me to be a major difference between the two kinds of instrument, and it is one that just cannot be overcome in any foreseeable future, and that is that the ways the sound is physically produced are so completely different. Loudspeakers or headphones just cannot effectively set the air in motion in the extremely complex way that the big box of wood and strings does. I guess many people are so accustomed to the artificial reproduction of sound that they don't think about it much, but for really advanced players, I would think that should be a big issue.

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#1176542 - 04/08/09 06:45 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: wr]
kennychaffin Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: epf

However, unlike some prognosticators, I don't see the DP replacing the acoustic piano. I think the "real thing" will always have a market, although the market will shrink and the price will, therefore, increase.


One is the real thing and the other is an imitation of it or a substitute for it. No matter how good the imitation is, I don't see how it could replace the real thing. DISplacing it is a different thing.

It seems a little weird to me that no one in the thread has mentioned what seems to me to be a major difference between the two kinds of instrument, and it is one that just cannot be overcome in any foreseeable future, and that is that the ways the sound is physically produced are so completely different. Loudspeakers or headphones just cannot effectively set the air in motion in the extremely complex way that the big box of wood and strings does. I guess many people are so accustomed to the artificial reproduction of sound that they don't think about it much, but for really advanced players, I would think that should be a big issue.



I think the target of much of digital piano research and development is to duplicate the feel and sound of acoustic pianos but remember that there is a wide variety of differences between acoustic models and families and individual pianos but and it's a big but smile the digital piano goes well beyond the capabilities and features of an acoustic piano. I hate it when people say it's ONLY AN IMITATION of an acoustic. The fact is that it's an instrument in it's own right that one of it's features is that it just happens to be able to duplicate the characteristics of an acoustic piano. Perhaps not exactly at this point in time, but the question comes back to which acoustic piano exactly do we want to sound like. I don't think it matters that much because if it is modeled (or sampled) on a popular high end acoustic that's good enough and again it is an instrument on its own it doesn't necessarily have to sound exactly like any particular acoustic piano since most of them have their own sound anyway.

The second part of this is as far as sound production I disagree with completely and that as much a reason it hasn't been brought up as any. The reproduction of sound is quite complex and constantly evolving. Do you listen to the radio? To a CD Player? An IPOD? All these devices are intended to store and reproduce the complex sounds of music and most people seem satisfied with the results. A digital piano has some extremely complex sound modeling and creation software that attempts to duplicate that complex set of sounds generated by an acoustic piano. Is it perfect? (see above)

Sound waves are sound waves - vibrations in the air. If a piece of technology can recreate or reproduce those same vibrations in the air our ears and brains can't tell the difference. A book I'm currently reading gets into a lot of this kind of discussion: "This is your brain on music" by Daniel J. Levitin.

I don't know if this experiment has ever been done, but there is an experiment in the computer artificial intelligence community where a person types questions to be answered by the "person" on the other end and then makes a determination of whether that person is a real person or a computer program. Maybe the manufacturers need to do a similar experiment (and maybe they do) with their high-end digital pianos vs acoustic pianos. Is it real or is it digital?

smile

P.S. I don't see the digital piano replacing acoustic either and actually hope it doesn't they both have their place just as acoustic guitars and electric guitars. etc. etc. etc.






Edited by kennychaffin (04/08/09 06:49 AM)
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#1176641 - 04/08/09 11:22 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: fredericch]
MarkH Offline
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Originally Posted By: fredericch

I find the Grantouch an incredible practice instrument. I use it with headphones sometimes, especially wearing it only on the left ear or only on the right ear to stimulate left or right brain thinking.


Auditory stimulation coming in either ear reaches both hemispheres of your brain unless you have some sort of brain damage in your auditory pathway. However, if you feel this helps your practice sessions, far be it from me to criticize your methods.

If you're curious, see http://instruct.uwo.ca/anatomy/530/530notes.htm and read section VIII, Auditory System. Under points to note about the central auditory connections, see point 2: The ascending pathway from each ear is bilateral.

Regarding the OT, I've played most of my life on a keyboard or DP, and in earlier years it hampered me to some extent. Currently I'm very pleased with my Clavinova CLP-280. It has very fine pedaling gradations that are essentially as good as a grand to my ears, and my ability to voice chords as well as play extreme pianissimo is actually unrealistically good on it compared to a real piano. However, it does not do repeated notes well. I just measured its max repetition rate (cheating by using one finger of each hand to repeat the note so my fingers aren't the limiting factor), and it's approximately 520 notes per minute (4 notes per beat at 130). To me it feels like the limiting factor is not anything to do with the electronics' ability to create that many "layers" of sound, but rather the pure mechanism of the keys not being ready to be struck again as quickly as on a grand. It's frustrating right now for the sake of Chopin Op. 10 No. 4, which I have right about at that speed. But for most repertoire it's not an issue.


Edited by MarkH (04/08/09 11:23 AM)
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#1176709 - 04/08/09 01:19 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: MarkH]
epf Offline
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Now that I've waxed poetic on the wonders of my DP let me tell you where it fails. The DP will produce one and only one basic type of sound -- a copy (suitably modified for pitch and volume) of the sample that was used. No matter what I do I can't change that. I can produce differences in sound on an acoustic piano, but not on a DP. With modeling that is potentially changeable, but not in what I've seen to date.

However, from a technical standpoint that is not a limitation in the development of what little skill I have, nor is it something that would have prevented me from getting to where I am. I've had the joy of playing on literally hundreds of different pianos in different parts of the world and that has contributed to my appreciation for the subtle differences between pianos, but I can's say that it's helped me develop any specific skills (other than listening).

Ed
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#1176714 - 04/08/09 01:25 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keyboardklutz]
John Citron Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
I really don't play post 1800 music at home anymore, it's too noisy. Instead I use a square piano (quite cheap over here) or a clavichord.


I find myself doing the same thing. I've been moving more away from the Romantic period and more and more back in time to the earlier stuff as well. At the same time, I'm also finding my Vogel to now have a very heavy action, which is difficult to control.

John
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#1176719 - 04/08/09 01:27 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: John Citron]
John Citron Offline
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I've seen the demos on the V series by Roland. They look promising. I spent my life practicing and playing on real pianos even though at one time I owned a Kurzweil K-1000 and I still have my Technics SX/PX667. I used the DP for about three years while I saved up for a grand. The DP was okay, but it took some getting used to with the pedal being different, and the touch being a bit odd comapared to the real thing.

Since I've gotten my grand, I've hardly used the DP anymore.

John
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#1176732 - 04/08/09 01:43 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Wood-demon]
jwcolby Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wood-demon
Originally Posted By: epf
I don't have a grand piano I have a Mason & Hamlin spinet that I started learning on in 4th grade. I also have a DP that I do most of my practicing on. I can switch easily between them and find there's no difference. Of course, the DP does support partial pedaling and I find that I can repeat notes as well on both pianos so there's no limitations there.
Ed


Not being awkward, but have you ever tried playing Alborada del Gracioso or Liszt's Tarantella (Venezia e Napoli) on your DP? If yes, and you can perform the repeated notes to tempo on your DP, please let me know the brand and model.


Wood Demon,

You make a good point in that obviously you are quite advanced. I read a lot of people who say that there are advanced things that simply cannot be done on even high end DPS, and who am I to dispute that?

OTOH, what percentage of what you know and can do could you have learned and done on a DP? I think this to be a far more useful question.

From my experience (back in my youth) I had an abysmal "real piano" with an abysmal action and feel, and a cracked soundboard. And yet I learned to sight read, I learned music theory, I learned a whole ton of stuff. It is NOT because I was playing on a "real piano"... any halfway decent DP would have been miles ahead of my instrument back then.

So answer my question as honestly as you are able.
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#1176775 - 04/08/09 02:45 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: jwcolby]
Chris H. Offline
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I started with an old, beat up tiny upright. Can't remember what it was but it did not have 88 keys and the sound must have been very poor. Not that I noticed much at the age of 7. After a couple of years (in which I made good progress) my parents bought me a better, new upright. Nothing amazing but I loved it. When I was 13 I wanted to join a 21 piece big band. I needed a DP because it had to be portable. I got one of the first Clavinovas on the market, CVP-3 I think? Looking back it was rubbish compared to what you can get now but I thought it was great. I never really played grand pianos until I went to college. None of my teachers up to then had a grand. It didn't stop me getting into college though so I obviously didn'y need a grand at home when first starting to play.
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#1176781 - 04/08/09 02:57 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Chris H.]
Chris H. Offline
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Oh, and now I own two uprights and a Technics PC-25 all of which seem to repeat notes just fine.

I wonder if some people are missing the point (as I understood it from the teacher's forum).

The question is not about which is better, acoustic or DP. It isn't about whether or not you can play advanced repertoire on a DP. If you start out on a DP are you risking your chances of ever learning to play the piano?
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#1176805 - 04/08/09 03:31 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: jwcolby]
Horwinkle Offline
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To answer the OP's question ...

Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?
I have gotten this far on a DP. The upright held me back. I've advanced more in 6 months with the DP (CLP240) than in all the prior years on an upright.

Does/did it limit your progress?
No, it enhanced my progress.

Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?
I would be much more advanced if I'd not lost a decade playing on an upright.

I'm delighted by the touch/feel of the DP. The sound is not as rich as the upright. But at least it's always in tune. And, with headphones, I can play much longer than I could with the upgright, at any time of day or night.

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#1176814 - 04/08/09 03:49 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Horwinkle]
BruceD Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Horwinkle
To answer the OP's question ...

Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?
I have gotten this far on a DP. The upright held me back. I've advanced more in 6 months with the DP (CLP240) than in all the prior years on an upright.


Blaming your years of lack of progress on an acoustic piano, saying that the acoustic hindered your musical growth, and crediting your advancement to the digital is stating facts with half-truths. If you had had a good acoustic piano to start with, or if you had exchanged your poor upright for a good one instead of for a digital, you would be crediting your early musical growth or your more recent progress on a better acoustic instrument and not on going from an acoustic to a digital.

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#1176840 - 04/08/09 04:27 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: fredericch]
BruceD Online   content
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Originally Posted By: fredericch
[...]I find the Grantouch an incredible practice instrument. I use it with headphones sometimes, especially wearing it only on the left ear or only on the right ear to stimulate left or right brain thinking.


fredericch ;

You may know more than I about left brain vs. right brain thinking, but I am somewhat nonplussed at your suggestion that either is dependent upon which ear is doing the hearing!

from : www.funderstanding.com/content/right-brain-vs-left-brain
"Experimentation has shown that the two different sides, or hemispheres, of the brain are responsible for different manners of thinking. The following table illustrates the differences between left-brain and right-brain thinking:

Left Brain
Logical
Sequential
Rational
Analytical
Objective
Looks at parts

Right Brain
Random
Intuitive
Holistic
Synthesizing
Subjective
Looks at wholes"

Regards,
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#1176852 - 04/08/09 04:48 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
fredericch Offline
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Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 77
Loc: Westport, CT
Hi BruceD and MarkH,
Thanks for the brain stuff. I'm very curious about it and will probably start a new topic discussion about the effects of left ear/right ear - left brain/right brain.
I have to study the medical document that Mark linked. It is very interesting!

As far as whether I would have gotten as far on a DP, I think not. There is no substitute for knowing the acoustic sound. Digital sound cannot reproduce the complex interactions of harmonics. NOr the complex mechanics of a piano action.
Once you have experienced an acoustic piano, both physically and emotionally (what I consider the listening experience), you can imagine it and fill in the difference, but you can't imagine what you haven't experienced.
Even if your imagination is simply to say "there is an area here that I cannot imagine", you are better off than thinking "this is what a piano sounds like."
Like any strong emotional experience (falling in love?), you don't know what you're missing until you've done it yourself, and then you can recall it without ever having to experience it again.
How much time you need to spend with a real acoustic piano before you emotionally and physically "know" it is the question. How long did it take before you got to a bike-riding skill level that you could not forget? And our emotional reaction to sound is constantly changing and growing with our growing experiences, so our perception of the acoustic piano sound will always be changing and deepening.
So I would not want to have a young student practice exclusively on a DP for any length of time. Once an adult, I think it would be possible to go for a long time on a good, weighted DP without too much physical or emotional damage, as long as there are live piano concerts to attend and the occasional friend's keyboard to keep the experience alive.

Fredericch

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#1176866 - 04/08/09 05:00 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: fredericch]
sotto voce Offline
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Has anybody pointed out that the original question is a logical impossibility that cannot be answered except with a hunch? Given that there's no "control group," there's no basis for responding with either yes or no; one can only speculate.

Steven
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#1176869 - 04/08/09 05:03 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: sotto voce]
kennychaffin Offline
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Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Has anybody pointed out that the original question is a logical impossibility that cannot be answered except with a hunch? Given that there's no "control group," there's no basis for responding with either yes or no; one can only speculate.

Steven


Great point. It's all speculation. ha
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#1176898 - 04/08/09 05:46 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
John Citron Offline
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Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Has anybody pointed out that the original question is a logical impossibility that cannot be answered except with a hunch? Given that there's no "control group," there's no basis for responding with either yes or no; one can only speculate.

Steven


Great point. It's all speculation. ha


Good point, Ken. Until pretty recently, digital pianos didn't exist.

John
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#1176917 - 04/08/09 06:10 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: sotto voce]
pianozuki Offline
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Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Has anybody pointed out that the original question is a logical impossibility that cannot be answered except with a hunch? Given that there's no "control group," there's no basis for responding with either yes or no; one can only speculate.

Steven


Yes, I wanted speculation, and recall that in my original post, I have in the body, "Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?". So in order to even begin to speculate one must have some knowledge of "one of the best DPs available now".
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#1177027 - 04/08/09 09:26 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
rrb Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Bend, USA
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
..there is an experiment in the computer artificial intelligence community where a person types questions to be answered by the "person" on the other end and then makes a determination of whether that person is a real person or a computer program. Maybe the manufacturers need to do a similar experiment (and maybe they do) with their high-end digital pianos vs acoustic pianos. Is it real or is it digital?


It's called the 'Turing Test', after Alan Turing who suggested it, and has been attempted repeatedly. I'm not up on the latest AI literature, but my belief is that no machine has yet 'passed'.

If I understand you correctly, an equivalent test for DP versus Steinway would be irrelevant because you regard these as different instruments. I agree with this view. However, if one wished to make a point, I suppose this would be as good a test as any.

When I was experimenting with synthesizers (pre-history, I know) I concluded that it is not possible to reproduce the wave form of a piano digitally because the number of degrees of freedom is essentially infinite. I suppose the focus of modern modeling is not to attempt this, but to isolate those elements that generate a sound as near to the sound of a piano as the ear can detect (if this is one's aim).

Whether one succeeds is, I suppose, a question of 'whose ear'? Mine has never been able on any CD I've ever heard to recognize a sound that more than roughly resembles that of a live orchestra.

This is all tangential to the OP's question. I hesitated to comment on this since I have not played a modern DP. However, as I understand, speculation is encouraged.

For most of my life I played on a Yamaha which has a bright tone, so it didn't sound much like a Boesendorfer, and surely was far removed from Beethoven's Hammerklavier. What I liked about it (amongst other things) was its sheer physicality. You could really get a nice belt on it, and it always came back for more. Try as I would, I could never reduce it to matchwood smirk This is what I believe I would miss on a DP.

I find it very hard to believe that listening over headphones to one's own rendition of, say, the march from Schumann's Fantasy in C, can send tingles from head to toe, as it does when one lets it rip on a concert grand. But then, I'm an old fart.

If DP's are as good as posters in this thread suggest, then I suppose the physical instrument will die out. Well, if the piano, then why not every other physical instrument as well? None has a wave-form as complex as a piano. Why, for heaven's sake, risk a heart attack trying to make a reed vibrate when one can get the same sound and timbre by pressing a key?
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#1177036 - 04/08/09 09:38 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
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Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
I own/play a Yamaha P-80.
I have a good amplifier, and decent headphones.

When I only play the DP for a while (I don't own an acoustic piano, but that's another story), it sounds fine.

Then when I sit down at a well made grand (Mason & Hamlin, Steinway, Estonia, Bluthner, etc.) I realize once again the severe limitations of the DP.

I'm game to try the newer models (I go back to the days of ARP, Moog, Fairchild, etc.), but for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread, I find it difficult to believe a DP can accurately replace a fine acoustic grand in touch and/or the subtleties of tone (harmonics, overtones, etc.).

But, as I said, point me to the ones you believe are up to it and I'm more than happy to give them a try, and come back to talk about them on PW.
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#1177037 - 04/08/09 09:38 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
kennychaffin Offline
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Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
RRB, you're not understand my intent exactly (and it has nothing to do with what I think), my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.



Edited by kennychaffin (04/08/09 09:41 PM)
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#1177090 - 04/08/09 11:14 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
buck2202 Offline
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Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: rrb
It's called the 'Turing Test', after Alan Turing who suggested it, and has been attempted repeatedly. I'm not up on the latest AI literature, but my belief is that no machine has yet 'passed'.


Not to drift too far off topic, but there have been many agents to pass the Turing test in individual cases. It's largely a function of the person trying to make the decision between AI and human, which is why it's more useful as motivation for AI research than as a concrete measure of AI.

Ironically, you can say the same thing about the "Kenny test" smile

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#1177103 - 04/08/09 11:42 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5958
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Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference...in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

What sort of listener? You can't mean any listener, as that would have to include someone who couldn't distinguish a flute from an oboe. So you must mean an informed, experienced listener. But how experienced? Where does it end?

Or perhaps you meant if a listener can't tell the difference then for that listener there's no difference. I'll grant you that smile. However, that's not the same as saying there IS no difference (implying, none exists, no-one would be able to hear it).
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#1177140 - 04/09/09 01:25 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: buck2202]
rrb Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Bend, USA
Originally Posted By: buck2202
Not to drift too far off topic, but there have been many agents to pass the Turing test in individual cases.


That's a problem I've always had with this 'test'. I've been fooled myself by AI software, for one minute. Where does one draw the line? Who decides how the 'conversation' should proceed?
What the hell is intelligence, anyway? Does the software have to be able to conduct a dialogue on Shakespeare's plays, or the late string quartets of Beethoven?

Sorry guys, really off topic here.
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#1177146 - 04/09/09 01:39 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7974
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
I hate it when people say it's ONLY AN IMITATION of an acoustic. The fact is that it's an instrument in it's own right that one of it's features is that it just happens to be able to duplicate the characteristics of an acoustic piano.



"...just happens..."?!?!? As far as I know, it is the only reason they even exist.


Quote:



The second part of this is as far as sound production I disagree with completely and that as much a reason it hasn't been brought up as any.



Huh?

Quote:


The reproduction of sound is quite complex and constantly evolving. Do you listen to the radio? To a CD Player? An IPOD? All these devices are intended to store and reproduce the complex sounds of music and most people seem satisfied with the results.


Most people aren't classical musicians who work with acoustic instruments. But anyway, people generally don't mistake the real sound of a full orchestra in a concert hall for what comes out of speakers. Or even a pipe organ.

Quote:


A digital piano has some extremely complex sound modeling and creation software that attempts to duplicate that complex set of sounds generated by an acoustic piano. Is it perfect? (see above)

Sound waves are sound waves - vibrations in the air. If a piece of technology can recreate or reproduce those same vibrations in the air our ears and brains can't tell the difference. A book I'm currently reading gets into a lot of this kind of discussion: "This is your brain on music" by Daniel J. Levitin.



There is no piece of technology that can reproduce the sound waves produced by my piano when I play it, in the space in which it is located. That is physically impossible at this point.

Quote:


I don't know if this experiment has ever been done, but there is an experiment in the computer artificial intelligence community where a person types questions to be answered by the "person" on the other end and then makes a determination of whether that person is a real person or a computer program. Maybe the manufacturers need to do a similar experiment (and maybe they do) with their high-end digital pianos vs acoustic pianos. Is it real or is it digital?



I can't imagine why they'd waste the money. It's absurd to think that most classical players who are accustomed to grands wouldn't be able to tell the difference between playing a grand with the lid up and playing a DP.

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#1177165 - 04/09/09 02:44 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
rrb Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Bend, USA
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
RRB, you're not understand my intent exactly (and it has nothing to do with what I think), my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.


I recall a famous response to some question that went something like: "It all depends what you mean by 'is'".

There 'is' no difference for that listener, but who cares unless it's you?

An objective definition of 'is' would involve a study of the time dependent sound spectra of the various instruments playing pieces that cover the range of sounds achievable by a pianist. It's an easy experiment, but rather pointless.

Since I seem to have misunderstood you, let me state my own opinion clearly. This is that, as each piano is an instrument unto itself -- some folk prefer Steinway, others Yamaha, Boesendoefer etc. -- so is each DP. If someone prefers listening to, or playing a DP that's fine with me.

I've stated what I think I would have missed if I'd spent my life playing DP's, and that's all I have to say on the subject.

Just as a matter of interest (I apologize, we are way off topic), I do wish you would not use the phrase 'acoustic piano'. A DP generates sound and so is as 'acoustic' as a piano. So, please, why not just 'piano', and 'digital piano'?
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#1177173 - 04/09/09 03:28 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
izaldu Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
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Loc:
The only thing that in my opinion favours the growth of dp s is price, size, and the possibility of playing it with headphones.
Acoustics are very inconvenient; they're heavy, thus expensive to move around, take up quite a bit of space, and very noisy, out ofthe question if you live in a small apartment.
Silent sysetms i think will eventually be cheaper. I'm in the market for an upright and i don't get why a 4000 eur piano costs an additional 25% with silent included.
Anyway, it's the convenience of a decent reproduction of piano touch and tone in a cheaper , lighter instrument that makes dp s popular. But in terms of sound quality, there is just no discussion. Dp s are not even close to the real thing. Plus they need to be amplified, which an acoustic does not.

It's like comparing a Hyundai and a Ferrari. Both do the job, but they're not quite the same thing , are they.

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#1177190 - 04/09/09 05:54 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: buck2202]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: buck2202
Originally Posted By: rrb
It's called the 'Turing Test', after Alan Turing who suggested it, and has been attempted repeatedly. I'm not up on the latest AI literature, but my belief is that no machine has yet 'passed'.


Not to drift too far off topic, but there have been many agents to pass the Turing test in individual cases. It's largely a function of the person trying to make the decision between AI and human, which is why it's more useful as motivation for AI research than as a concrete measure of AI.

Ironically, you can say the same thing about the "Kenny test" smile


That's the Chaffin Test to you buddy!

whome
_________________________
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#1177193 - 04/09/09 06:04 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

Quick question: Is this a test where a person is in the room listening to a DP and then an AP actually being played? Or are we talking about a recording of each? If the latter, the sound has already been changed.

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#1177199 - 04/09/09 06:23 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
pianozuki Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/09
Posts: 180
Loc: Bellevue WA, USA
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: buck2202
Originally Posted By: rrb
It's called the 'Turing Test', after Alan Turing who suggested it, and has been attempted repeatedly. I'm not up on the latest AI literature, but my belief is that no machine has yet 'passed'.


Not to drift too far off topic, but there have been many agents to pass the Turing test in individual cases. It's largely a function of the person trying to make the decision between AI and human, which is why it's more useful as motivation for AI research than as a concrete measure of AI.

Ironically, you can say the same thing about the "Kenny test" smile


That's the Chaffin Test to you buddy!

whome



Hey, how about the Moores test?:
If at some point blindfolded top-flight pianists can't tell the difference between the best DP and a concert grand by playing them, then we have a difference that is no longer a difference.
(from a post of mine from long ago in a different thread)

Dick Moores


Edited by pianozuki (04/09/09 06:26 AM)
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#1177200 - 04/09/09 06:28 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
kennychaffin Offline
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Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Thought I'd throw out this you-tube link about PianoTeq (a modeling based digital pianos) I was just watching for those that might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTbXnbfymdc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulS-N6PSRuc&feature=related




Edited by kennychaffin (04/09/09 06:29 AM)
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#1177202 - 04/09/09 06:40 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

Quick question: Is this a test where a person is in the room listening to a DP and then an AP actually being played? Or are we talking about a recording of each? If the latter, the sound has already been changed.


However you want to do it in a true scientific type test. Perhaps a curtain across the room or something if you prefer. The point of any scientific experiment is to keep everything constant and modify the control variable and measure the results.
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#1177203 - 04/09/09 06:40 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: buck2202
Originally Posted By: rrb
It's called the 'Turing Test', after Alan Turing who suggested it, and has been attempted repeatedly. I'm not up on the latest AI literature, but my belief is that no machine has yet 'passed'.


Not to drift too far off topic, but there have been many agents to pass the Turing test in individual cases. It's largely a function of the person trying to make the decision between AI and human, which is why it's more useful as motivation for AI research than as a concrete measure of AI.

Ironically, you can say the same thing about the "Kenny test" smile


That's the Chaffin Test to you buddy!

whome



Hey, how about the Moores test?:
If at some point blindfolded top-flight pianists can't tell the difference between the best DP and a concert grand by playing them, then we have a difference that is no longer a difference.
(from a post of mine from long ago in a different thread)

Dick Moores


Damn, scooped again!

smile
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1177256 - 04/09/09 09:11 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

Quick question: Is this a test where a person is in the room listening to a DP and then an AP actually being played? Or are we talking about a recording of each? If the latter, the sound has already been changed.


However you want to do it in a true scientific type test. Perhaps a curtain across the room or something if you prefer. The point of any scientific experiment is to keep everything constant and modify the control variable and measure the results.


That doesn't answer my question, and it is not meant to be scientific. I would like to know whether the test you are talking about happens in the room with actual pianos. As soon as they are recorded the difference disappears by that very fact. The element that I am missing when I play is a live thing. For listening it involves the different ways that sound emanates from the physical components in a three dimensional textured way. It is a different kind of three-dimensionality that surround sound would create. As a player I am interacting with elements audially and physically.

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#1177264 - 04/09/09 09:43 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: kennychaffin
Originally Posted By: keystring
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

Quick question: Is this a test where a person is in the room listening to a DP and then an AP actually being played? Or are we talking about a recording of each? If the latter, the sound has already been changed.


However you want to do it in a true scientific type test. Perhaps a curtain across the room or something if you prefer. The point of any scientific experiment is to keep everything constant and modify the control variable and measure the results.


That doesn't answer my question, and it is not meant to be scientific. I would like to know whether the test you are talking about happens in the room with actual pianos. As soon as they are recorded the difference disappears by that very fact. The element that I am missing when I play is a live thing. For listening it involves the different ways that sound emanates from the physical components in a three dimensional textured way. It is a different kind of three-dimensionality that surround sound would create. As a player I am interacting with elements audially and physically.


As I said, design the experiment any way you want as long as it meets scientific criteria.
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#1177313 - 04/09/09 11:58 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: BruceD]
Horwinkle Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 1011
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Horwinkle
To answer the OP's question ...

Could you have gotten where you are with a DP?
I have gotten this far on a DP. The upright held me back. I've advanced more in 6 months with the DP (CLP240) than in all the prior years on an upright.


Blaming your years of lack of progress on an acoustic piano, saying that the acoustic hindered your musical growth, and crediting your advancement to the digital is stating facts with half-truths. If you had had a good acoustic piano to start with, or if you had exchanged your poor upright for a good one instead of for a digital, you would be crediting your early musical growth or your more recent progress on a better acoustic instrument and not on going from an acoustic to a digital.

What makes you think I have a "poor upright"?

I do have a good acoustic piano. It's a full-size, 50" Kawai US-50.

It sounds better than the DP.

But the DP (CLP240) feels much better, and it's much easier to play.

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#1177321 - 04/09/09 12:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Horwinkle]
epf Offline
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Posts: 658
Loc: Central Texas
I'm going to say one more thing before I shut up... Although I have a wonderful Mason & Hamlin piano, it was the acquisition of a digital piano that made it possible for me to practice enough to actually improve. You see, the M&H sits in the living room and my wife likes to watch TV. Instant conflict. Since keeping the wife was important, I needed a solution that would allow me to play without bothering her TV watching habit. The DP was the answer. I can practice in the early morning hours without waking her up (or bothering the neighbors). Since practice is a necessary component of playing the piano the OP's question was not, for me, a theoretical question without an answer. I would not be where I am without a DP.

Ed
_________________________
"...a man ... should engage himself with the causes of the harmonious combination of sounds, and with the composition of music." Anatolius of Alexandria

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#1177351 - 04/09/09 01:22 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: kennychaffin]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
Kenny, we're still talking past each other. When you wrote this:
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

were you referring to an experiment that has already taken place? I assumed there had been. If not, my question is moot.

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#1177355 - 04/09/09 01:28 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: keystring]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Originally Posted By: keystring
Kenny, we're still talking past each other. When you wrote this:
Quote:
my point was that if a listener can't tell the difference (i.e. identify the digital piano vs the acoustic piano) in a "blind" listening test, then there IS no difference.

were you referring to an experiment that has already taken place? I assumed there had been. If not, my question is moot.


I said above:
Quote:
I don't know if this experiment has ever been done, but there is an experiment in the computer artificial intelligence community where a person types questions to be answered by the "person" on the other end and then makes a determination of whether that person is a real person or a computer program. Maybe the manufacturers need to do a similar experiment (and maybe they do) with their high-end digital pianos vs acoustic pianos. Is it real or is it digital?
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1177356 - 04/09/09 01:30 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Horwinkle]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18221
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Horwinkle
[...]What makes you think I have a "poor upright"?

I do have a good acoustic piano. It's a full-size, 50" Kawai US-50.

It sounds better than the DP.

But the DP (CLP240) feels much better, and it's much easier to play.


My apologies; I must have misread something or confused your post with another where the poster said his upright was a "poor" piano.

But this raises another unanswerable question, but pointless to ask in this context.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1177646 - 04/10/09 12:18 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: Chris H.]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 258
Loc: Trent Woods, NC
In my case, I HAVE made my accomplishments on a digital instrument; although my playing is only now at an intermediate level. For several reasons, including financial, space, and the possibility of silent practice; a quality standard piano is not within my reach.

I play primarily on two instruments, the older is a Kurzweil PC2X, the newer is the Kurzweil PC3X. I am presently at a level where I am beginning to work on the easier pieces by Chopin.

On my digital, I do have the opportunity to practice whenever I wish, without disturbing others. More practice improves my playing at a faster rate than less practice on a grand. I do have three pedals, all functional (similar, although not exactly like the function of the three pedals on a grand). The damper pedal does not provide for half-pedaling. At this point, that has not posed a problem, although it might at some future point.

The PC3X in particular has a very good sound, especially in the souple of octaves beginning an octave above middle C - quite bell-like with sufficient sustain (the older electronic instruments that I have played to not perform well in this area). The instrument is NOT styled so as to look like a piano, being a pro keyboard that is stage piano shaped. By the way, the amplification and speaker systems employed make a large difference in its sound.

One area that I have noticed that is quite different from a traditional piano - if the key is not quite fully released, and struck again, it will sound (since the mechanism is not make like a traditional piano action) - if I am playing a traditional piano quite softly, I have to take extra precaution to be sure that all the notes are heard.

Life is a series of many compromises. Even if I were to inherit, or otherwise come into, a new Tier 1 grand piano; I would still not get rid of my Kurzweil. Now, part of this is because I also use my instruments as synthesizers in various ensembles, so I am not always playing piano. The action is harder than most spinet and studio pianos which I have played, about the same resistance as a local church's Yamaha grand, but less than the college's S&S model B. More important, I cannot (yet) play faster than it is capable of responding, and the action is very even.

Hopefully, my response is useful to the OP. My wife and myself will be playing in a recital in a couple of weeks. I plan to use it, having already tried the Kawaii studio that is at the recital site. I have been so well satisfied that I also purchased a 76key PC3 to use on gigs.
_________________________
Jim Cason
Promised LAN Computing, Inc.
Howard C171 Grand, Kurzweil PC3X, PC3, PC361, PC2X, PC2.
JBL 10&15 EONG2s, EV SxA100+s QSC K10s, HP & ThinkPad DAWs, eMu 1820M & 1616M.
Epi Les Paul & LP 5str Bass, Trace amp-cabinets.
Formerly in electronic keyboard repair trade - semi-retired

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#1177961 - 04/10/09 02:33 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
rrb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 212
Loc: Bend, USA
Originally Posted By: pianozuki
So: how many of the excellent pianists here practice mainly on a DP and don't have a grand piano? Does/did it limit your progress? ... Rephrasing: Can you imagine getting to where you are today if from the beginning you had used only one of the best DPs available now?


This thread has wandered quite a bit and thrown up a couple of possibly peripheral but rather interesting questions. This is my attempt at a summary.

If I interpret the original question as 'Does using a DP for practice hinder playing on a P?', the consensus answer seems to be 'No!, rather the converse, because use of a DP allows practice at times and in locations where practice on a P would be either antisocial or impossible'. An advantage of the DP which one can immediately understand and accept.

A secondary question that came to take over the thread is whether a modern DP 'sounds like' a P. Various posts suggest that a modern DP gets very close, though this refers, presumably, to a comparison of the sound generated by a DP + headphones versus the sound from a CD of a P playing the same piece, and listened to on the same headphones.

The question for which K-Ch proposed an experimental test, is, I think, a bit different.
'Suppose one set up in a concert setting a concert grand on the one hand, and a modern DP with the finest available sound reproduction system on the other. An opaque curtain separates these instruments from an audience. A selection of pieces from the literature is played on each instrument, with the audience unaware which instrument is being played. Each member of the audience is given a card with the sequence of pieces (say ABCDCBDA) listed and check boxes provided which are to be marked according to which instrument the listener believes is playing each piece. The results are then analyzed statistically to determine whether there is any bias one way or the other.'

Is this a reasonable description of your 'Turing Test' for DP v P, K-Ch? If so, the test is not only of the digital output of the DP but of the mechanical system that converts this into sound waves. Since I've never experienced a sound reproduction system that adequately reproduces the full dynamic range of a concert grand, I would expect the result of this test to be a foregone conclusion. Even if the waveform emitted by the DP were identical to that of the P, the sound reproduction system would distort it.

A fairer test for the DP may be to compare with recordings of a P made on an analogue master tape in a concert setting and reproduced from that tape via the same sound reproduction system used by the DP. (Of course, the recording onto the master tape will introduce distortion, but this is presumably significantly less than the mechanical distortion induced by the reproduction system.)

A third question, which has received almost no attention, is whether playing a DP gives the same level of enjoyment as playing on a P. I guess this is my question. I'd be interested in comments from people who've had the experience. A sensible formulation of the question might be:
'Do you get more, less or the same level of satisfaction when playing a concert grand or a modern DP?'
_________________________
Rob

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#1177990 - 04/10/09 03:12 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
RRB, I think your potential experimental set up would work fine. smile

Again all I was interested in proposing was the experiment itself. It would hopefully be set up in a "proper" scientific manner to limit the variances and give useful results.
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
Art Gallery - Print Gallery - Poetry
"Strive on with Awareness" - Siddhartha Gautama

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#1178166 - 04/10/09 09:16 PM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: rrb]
Larry B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 377
Loc: Boston
Originally Posted By: rrb
A sensible formulation of the question might be:
'Do you get more, less or the same level of satisfaction when playing a concert grand or a modern DP?'


Funny - I did this tonight. I was at Guitar Center with my son to buy an equipment case, and could note resist trying all the digitals. I played and still own a Yamaha P200 digital for several years before getting a decent acoustic. In fact, I owned an old (but playable) "stencil" baby grand piano from the 1920s at the time I bought the digital, and the digital was a good step up from that. The P200 is a very very good digital, with full weighted keys. I'm grateful to it and for it, as it was my main piano for some time.

That said, I played the (new model) P300 tonight, as well as a wide sampling of others in the US$800-2000 range.

It was not hard to adjust to the digitals, and in some cases, they were kind of easier to play. Dynamics that I struggle with a little on my grand were simpler because the instrument is simpler. Pieces on my grand with which I work to get the sustain just right through a combination of pedaling and good fingerwork were easier on the digital since the sustain is less complex and easier to control.

Classical music was most unsatisfying - no "depth" to it; while my favorite moment was playing Billy Joel's Rosalinda's Eyes with a setting that really sounded a lot like the Fender Rhodes he plays on that song.

So, do I like a good digital piano for some things? Yup. Great tools, they are. Having a to choose one or the other, would I be "satisfied" with one in place of my first-rate acoustic now? No way.

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#1178410 - 04/11/09 10:56 AM Re: Could you have gotten where you are with a DP? [Re: pianozuki]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Well, I have. An acoustic would be too costly, so I only have a digital. My piano teacher has a baby grand and I regularly play on the grand at college, so it's not too much of a problem playing on a proper piano.

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