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Two things:

1. Let's take the original question in reverse ... After playing an acoustic piano, how hard is it to adapt to a digital?

2. Also ... I wonder if the original question is moot because it generalizes about the feel of an acoustic and the feel of a digital. Is that a meaningful comparison? Do all acoustics feel the same? Do all digitals feel the same? I'd say no to all three of those questions. Consequently, one can only compare a specific acoustic to a specific DP.

My son has had no problem switching from our DPs to our acoustic grand to the grand pianos in his teacher's studio to the upright and grand pianos in practice rooms to Steinway Concert Grand pianos on stage. (He had more problems adjusting and positioning the benches.)

And again, he spends most his time on one of our DPs out of conveniece. "He plays with sensitivity and already has great control!" (as one concert pianist and piano teacher has commented.)

kennychaffin wrote:


To that, I ask: same as which specific acoustic?

No two acoustic pianos feel the same. Some acoustics have a heavier feel, others a lighter feel. A grand's action allows for faster repeated key strokes than a spinet.

Whatever specific acoustic the DP is trying to imitate, it's almost certainly not the piano that one will be performing on.


Mary

Gah!!! I hope I never have to!

I almost put a on the above sentence. But then realized that I do feel that way. No offense to all the DP advocats on the forum.

Mary

Mute point Mary. We were talking about your specific experience to which you did not know the digital piano in question so my answer is the same as yours.

Hmmmm, see that's part of my issue in this thread. I suspect you've probably never played a really good digital piano. That's fine if you don't want to, but it's not good to reject them if you are not aware.

Kenny -- I don't know what your issues with this thread are, but let me re-iterate my position.

I've never said that DPs are bad. What I've said is that if ALL you practice on is a DP and you're going to perform on an acoustic, that you should practice on an acoustic at least once, preferably on the acoustic that you'll be performing on. Who wants surprises at a live performance?? I would also recommend that if all you practice on is an acoustic and you'll be performing on a DP, you'd better practice at least once on a DP.

I admit, the only DPs I've played have not been top-of-the line models. I know that DPs have a wide variety of features that acoustics do not, but I have no need or desire to take advantage of those features. By features, I mean things like: portability, playing silently (only a few acoustics do this), playing with other sounds than that of an acoustic, connecting to a computer, adding rhythms or accompaniments, no tuning required.

Let's not forget that the goal of DP development is to provide touch and tone that mimic an acoustic piano. The acoustic piano is the standard by which DPs are judged! DPs are a useful tool, but they're imitations of the real thing -- the acoustic piano.


Mary

I think this is a quite reasonable position. In terms of performing, you're best served by practicing on an instrument as close to the performance instrument as possible. And there's usually some need for adjustment when going to any unfamiliar instrument. The closer your own piano is to the "best" piano (read "best" to mean high-quality grand, since different grands have their own distinctions), the less adjustment you'll need when you play on one.

I don't think that anyone can argue against the idea that a person should have (or at least regularly practice on) the best instrument that they can...and the point that I've been trying to make all along is that for some people, the best instrument that fits into their situation is a DP. Heck, for some people's goals, the best instrument is a DP. A good grand will always be the standard, but that doesn't mean that a lesser instrument (be it grand, upright, spinet, DP, whatever) is always bad. Unless you get a top-tier grand, you're probably limiting yourself as a pianist in some way, but we do the best that we can.


Partially true, I think. To take Yamaha as an example, their high-quality DP lines include two classes: one that is almost solely a piano (CLP), and one that builds on the piano line with many different voices, accompaniment, and recording features (CVP). In the CLP class, yes, the goal is first and foremost to be the best acoustic piano replacement that they can. The CVP class can be for a different crowd, and it can't be called simply a "piano wannabe". You can partially judge it that way, but to a person who actually uses all of the additional features, it's much more than that.


To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore. I don't think that anyone disputes that

• A DP is superior to some acoustic pianos in quality
  
• A DP can't approach a top-tier grand in being the best piano
  
• DPs are sometimes the best piano possible for a given situation, and DPs are sometimes superior to acoustic pianos for a person's particular goals

Some people don't see that a good acoustic is "better" than a DP because the DP serves their own goals as well or better than an acoustic could. And some people think that a DP is a bad choice because it can't be a better piano than the best acoustic pianos. Are we really arguing about anything but semantics at this point? We wouldn't be arguing if the thread topic was "how many of your students have only a spinet?" but much of the dialog would be the same. "I don't have the space/money for a grand" or "a grand would be too loud" or "the spinet is fine for my needs" or whatever, vs. "you're limiting your development" or "the touch/sound is inferior." The biggest difference would be that no one would argue that a spinet piano isn't a "piano."

If you have and enjoy a DP, and you bought it because an acoustic piano wouldn't fit into your situation (noise, space, money, etc.), fine..you have a "piano." If you have and enjoy a DP, and you bought it because it does things that an acoustic can't (recording, voices, accompaniment, etc.), fine..you have a "digital piano." What does it matter what other people call it? You and your teacher are the best judges of what's best for your development, and you alone can judge what's best for your situation.

Geez..now I've gone and typed so much that I've forgotten what we're arguing about.

buck2202 wrote:
I don't think that anyone disputes that

* A DP is superior to some acoustic pianos in quality
* A DP can't approach a top-tier grand in being the best piano
* DPs are sometimes the best piano possible for a given situation, and DPs are sometimes superior to acoustic pianos for a person's particular goals

I'm the OP. I agree with points 1 and 3, but want to take issue with point 2.

It seems buck2202, and others here believe not only that there is no DP that can come close to the best acoustic, but that in principle there can't be such a DP. Some argue that those DP designed to come as close as possible to the touch and tone of the best acoustic grand will always remain an imitation and not the real thing, and therefore less. THAT latter argument is IMO specious and doesn't interest me. Remember, I'm the student whose teacher told him he won't realize his potential unless he gets an excellent acoustic, preferably a grand. Her reason is that without such a piano I won't learn to express all the nuances possible only with an excellent acoustic. I'm not at all interested in performing in public, nor in preparing myself to play a grand piano.

But back to the in principle argument. I trust there is agreement here among those who have looked at today's DPs, that the better DPs are in fact becoming better, i.e., approaching the ideal touch and tone of an excellent acoustic. No cigar yet, I'll agree, but how about 10 or 5 or even 2 years from now? If at some point blindfolded top-flight pianists can't tell the difference between the best DP and a concert grand by playing them, then we have a difference that is no longer a difference.

I haven't seen that anyone in this thread has followed through on my suggestion to view the demos of the soon-to-be-released Roland V-Piano, at http://www.roland.com/V-Piano/ . Could this be my piano?

But where does she draw the line? Even if you did plan to be a concert pianist what should you do? A concert pianist will perform on a premium concert grand piano in a concert hall. So if you are going to express all the nuances possible in this ideal situation you had better go out and buy a concert grand and while you are at it a concert hall to put it in. Anything else has its limitations. If you shoehorn a large grand piano into a small room its expressive qualities are limited (I know because I have done this in the past). If you buy a 100 year old acoustic which has not been restored then its expressive qualities are limited. If you buy the best DP on the market then its expressive qualities will still be limited. None of this matters to me. A good pianist needs to be able to adapt to any piano in any situation because they are all different. Unless you are going to perform on the same one in the same place all the time you had better get used to this. It's a skill which develops with time and experience. By the time you need to be able to do this you should be performing regularly in different situations. That is the only way to practise this aspect of performance. What you have at home might not really matter at this point.

I don't much like that flashy V piano. For me the beauty of pianos is their individuality and personality. I get excited when I sit down to play a new piano because you don't know what to expect. You have to respond to what you hear and feel. I don't want a bland box which can simulate any sound. It has no soul. Just my opinion though. If you like it then get it. Looks expensive though.

I'm not sure what to say about the V-piano...obviously you'll have to try it and see what you think. Guitar center's website is showing it for preorder at about $6000, so yes, expensive. About twice what a lot of people in the DP forum are paying for near top-of-the-line right now.

I agree that the in principle argument is specious. If your definition of a piano is strings in hammers, a DP can never be a piano at all, and I don't agree with that. But I wouldn't be much of an electrical engineer if I didn't believe that a DP will rival an acoustic grand in touch and tone someday. As for when, I'm not sure...some people will tell you that midi software already gets pretty close on the sound front, and I can't imagine it being that expensive for manufacturers to get that built in. In terms of touch, I'm not sure...I've played an acoustic grand once in my life for about 10 minutes, so I don't have a basis to compare where my DP (CLP 370) is now. I can tell you definitively that it's worlds above my previous low end DP, and that I quite prefer it to the acoustic upright that I take my lessons on.

You're right, though...my second point should have read that in terms of being a piano, today's DPs don't rival the best acoustic grands. And admittedly, that's just something that I have to take on faith from the people who know what a grand can do.

The engineer in me doesn't think that it should take that long to get DPs functionally comparable to the best acoustic grands...but then again, the engineer in me doesn't see what should be so hard about it in the first place. Memory and processing power are cheap, and the feeling of striking a piano key, quite frankly, is complex but not impossible to model. If I had to guess, I would say that the current state of DP technology has more to do with marketing than research.


My take on your initial question (if you really want to drop the semantic argument ) is that a new DP will be worlds above the one that you have now for sure. Will it limit your development? A top-level pianist can surely do things with a concert grand that can't be done with today's DP. But I think the line between people that can and people that can't is a fuzzy one...when does one get to that point? 10 years? 15? 5? My feeling is that you can't go wrong upgrading to today's DP from where you are now. A good acoustic grand would be a better piano. A top-level upright, maybe better. But if your circumstances don't permit it, or you just prefer the convenience of a DP right now, I wouldn't lose sleep over "lost potential." I think if you're actually being limited by your instrument right now, you don't have to sit around guessing about it. If you can't tell that you've hit a ceiling, surely your teacher can.

And even if you spend the money on a DP today and find that it does limit you in 5 or 10 years, it doesn't automatically become useless if you decide that you do want an acoustic grand after all. The digital will still have its own advantages. And if you still don't want an acoustic grand, get a new DP. It's technology, not an heirloom (as the prices of a DP and a grand conclusively indicate)...they'll get better and they'll probably get cheaper (unless yamaha and roland start copying apple's pricing scheme )

Hmm. I'm just not getting through. To quote from YOUR quote of me, "I'm not at all interested in performing in public, nor in preparing myself to play a grand piano." I AM interested in "learn[ing] to express all the nuances possible".

You say, "A good pianist needs to be able to adapt to any piano in any situation because they are all different. Unless you are going to perform on the same one in the same place all the time you had better get used to this."

Well, I intend to flunk your test of a good pianist. I want only to play the best I can in my family room--for myself and my cat, and only occasionally for a few friends who drop by. But my test and my teacher's test is the ability to express the nuances in the music itself. I don't see any reason a DP by itself would prevent me from developing this ability. If not the best DP now, then one not far down the road. It's this I will begin to try to convince my teacher of, when I have my next lesson this afternoon. I hope to get her to accompany me to the 23,000 square-foot piano store that very recently became a Kawai dealer, the only one in the Seattle area that has both acoustic and digital pianos. (The nearest Yamaha dealer is in Tacoma--a 30-mile hike down horrible I-5.)

(I've copied those V-Piano videos to a memory stick, and will leave it with her today.)

Terrific! Pianist and electrical engineer in the same person. A rational, tech-savvy artist!



Yes, expensive. But PLEASE tell me what you thought of the videos.




Yes. My sig says it all.



Thanks for really understanding me, and for your informed and sensible advice.

Pianozuki, thank you for bringing this back around to the original point. I think we see eye-to-eye here and I'm going refrain (as best I can ) from arguing with those who seem to have their own agenda.

The point of the thread (as I see it) was to find out what piano teachers opinion of digital pianos were and certainly there is a range of opinion, some on target, some misguided some seemingly even intentionally negative, sometimes these opinions are based experience and some on hearsay and fabrication.

I think there is also a distinction in what the purpose (i.e. the final outcome) of the study is to be. I think you explained it well above (I'd have to go back an re-read the initial post to see if it was expressed there) -- there is no intent here to be a top pianist touring the world and playing concerts (correct me if I'm wrong). Currently the performing solo pianist uses an acoustic (grand or otherwise ) that is what is expected.

Is that what the future holds? It's anyone's guess. I suspect acoustics will be around for many centuries but I also believe they will soon be replaced by digital pianos in the same way typewriters have been replaced by computers, CDs have replaced vinyl records, digital tv has replaced analog tv and books/newspapers are being replaced by digital book readers and the internet. It's inevitable given the advantage of digital pianos over acoustic. Sure some will continue to worship acoustic pianos just as there are those who worship vinyl records or period instrument orchestras. That too is inevitable and expected.

We're at a transition period at the moment. We'll have to wait to see what the future brings.

Yes, but well presented better than my response which I typed and then deleted.

Thanks Buck.

P.S. Good to meet another EE here as well.

I regularly play both acoustic and digital pianos. I bought the digital because I thought it was reasonably close (in touch, not sound) to the acoustic. I use it for practice with headphones in the "wee small hours" and when my wife is also practicing. I find that I am able to translate the things I've worked on at the DP to the acoustic.

I think that the big difference is between the acoustic I play at home and the acoustic I play at school. Entirely different touch, sound, everything. I prefer my digital to that piano, and I've had considerable experience with another of the same make and size. I'm not saying it's bad, just very, very different.

Pianozuki,
I just spent a bit of time reviewing the V-Piano. I couldn't view the Roland videos directly as I do not have quicktime installed but watched this video (maybe the same?) at synthtopia:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/01/23/the-roland-v-piano/

Looks very impressive and appears that Roland has incorporated into hardware the virtual piano approaches that I'm seeing happen in the software virtual piano world such as with Truepianos:

http://www.truepianos.com/

and others in this category. There are many sampled digital pianos as well as modeled pianos in both hardware (i.e. physical pianos) and software (i.e. VSTi running on computers and controlled by a keyboard controller).

As is indicated in the video, there are many issues with the sampling approach which are overcome by the modeling approach. Not that there are not issues with modeling as well, but at least for my money the modeling approach is where this technology will end up.

I don't know that this particular piano - the Roland V-Piano is the be-all end-all but it's certainly the leading (bleeding) edge and thus the high $$$$.

And certainly Roland makes some of the best keybeds out there for their feel and responsiveness.

Personally I am not in a position that I would pay the price for the V-Piano (unless I win the lotto tomorrow ), but certainly it looks to be an excellent stand along virtual modeled piano.

For me, for now, I will stick with my Casio PX-320 and Yamaha NP-30 for practice and playing along with my Sonar 8 Professional and my virtual pianos both modeled and sampled for recording.

Pianozuki,
I just spent a bit of time reviewing the V-Piano. I couldn't view the Roland videos directly as I do not have quicktime installed but watched this video (maybe the same?) at synthtopia:

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/01/23/the-roland-v-piano/

Yes Kenny, that's the same video (or the video in 4 parts)

Thanks very much for your useful review.

Your point is getting through just fine. Obviously mine isn't. I see no reason for you to go out and buy an expensive grand piano in order to learn to play. A good quality DP will do the job and there is no reason why that, in itself, should limit your progress. But then I think you had made your decision before you even posted this question here. It's clear that you intend to convince your teacher later today. Good luck with that.

Thanks, Chris.

Yes, I like the digital idea, just as I like writing on a computer better than on a typewriter. DPs will continue to improve, and eventually surpass the best APs.

The purpose behind my question was in part to shape up an argument to use with my teacher. I think I've got that now, just in time for my 2pm lesson today.

Secondly, I was hoping to learn of DPs that I didn't know of. I now know I should investigate Casio and Roland in addition to Kawai and Yamaha. And I'm in luck for the Kawai and Roland, because I learned in a thread here of a big piano store (Prosser) near Seattle that has just become a Kawai dealer and I think was already a Roland dealer. For Yamaha, I'll have to go to Tacoma, Olympia, Portland, or Spokane. Kawai has been my tentative first choice all along for either a DP or AP -- I had a Kawai upright when I lived in Tokyo decades ago.

My thanks to everyone for their participation in this thread.

Dick Moores