Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum How many of your students have only a DP?

I have found this thread a little sad, and a lot judgmental. "serious students", only take students with a "real" piano etc.

Wow!

I can certainly understand teachers requiring certain tools. I can understand teachers limiting themselves to students with a certain level of skill, which is what I have to assume is going on here.

OTOH, I grew up playing on an old piano with a cracked sound board, that sounded abysmal, rescued from the back porch of my great grandparents house. My parents had it "tuned" - for all the good it did. It had harmonics never intended by the manufacturer, I can assure you of that. It had an abysmal feel.

I never became a concert pianist, but that really is not important. What is important is that I learned to love music, and I am now (at the ripe old age of 54) going back to see what I can pick up again.

I am truly glad that my piano teacher did not dictate a grand piano, or I would not have had lessons. My parents were so poor that the choice was between food on the table and a good piano. My grandmother paid for the lessons! Choices my hind leg. THAT is judgmental hooey!!!

There are BILLIONS of people in this world where the family makes a dollar a day. If their children (or the parents) want to learn piano, they are every bit as "serious" as the Kennedy's of this world, but they will NEVER own a grand. They might find a used DP though.

I just bought a well used "used to be somewhat high end" DP (for $100) from my Pastor's wife. I took it apart, cleaned all the electronics and put it back together again.

Now I have to learn the scales, I have to learn to read music again, I have to learn music theory again, I have to learn to play the most basic stuff. I have to train my fingers to work together again. I have many years of just the basics to work through before I will have any use whatsoever for a "real" piano.

I do not NEED a grand piano, I will with 99% certainly NEVER need a grand. I am a programmer, not a concert pianist; I will never be a concert pianist. However I will enjoy learning again. I will enjoy hooking up the DP to my computer and storing my "creations". I will enjoy playing with the synth. I had more fun playing the "ATOMIC Lead" synth voice this morning, I must have played a half hour of finger exercises just because the sound was so neat!

So no, I am not a "serious" piano player, but I have to say it is annoying to be so callously discarded to the trash heap with that expression. I do hope to once again enjoy playing music.

Obviously I have no need for the John v.d. Brooks of the world, though I appreciate that they exist for those who have the need (and the money!!!). Further, given his (and other poster's) heartfelt "prejudices", it seems unlikely that we would even enjoy each other's company! Which I also find a little sad.

But say what you will, a DP fits my needs precisely.

John, you make a lot of accusations here. Name for us the teachers on this forum who responded saying they only take students with pianos to practice on.

The majority of my students will be spending less than £1000 on their first instrument. I can understand that even that is a lot to lay out on a new activity for yourself or your kids. At this price point (and often less) a DP is a good option. There are acoustic pianos available for this budget but you are taking a big risk if you don't know what you are doing. I know a local dealer who sells starter pianos (acoustic) for around £1000 and he is honest and reliable. I did visit him a few weeks ago and I have to admit that some of the stock was less appealing than the DP's I played recently.

I would still hope that as they advance most of them will consider a change to a good acoustic if possible. And a lot of them do. They still keep their DP's for silent practice and so far I have not noticed any negative side effects.

John (Brook), I don't think he (John C) pointed out any specific teacher other than you and you and I have been through all that already.

Nor does he need to delineate a list of teachers. There have been numerous postings in this thread by you and others denigrating and demeaning both digital pianos and those who use them. That's fine, it's your opinion, you're free to express it as am I, as is John Colby.

As I said in one my previous posts, we should stick to the O.P. question at hand and drop the judgments. Maybe just Yes/No answers.

Should you want to continue this discussion, I'm still looking for you to detail the limitations you believe students are placing on themselves by using a digital piano. Of course email or PM might be more appropriate than continuing to pollute this thread.

I would encourage you to think about the billions of people in this world who can't afford what you just purchased. Are you now more "serious" about piano than they are?

Well there are billions of people that probably have no thought of pianos as they are struggling just to survive and make it through the next day if not the next hour.

Is that what you are getting at AZNpiano?

Just curious as to your question.

John,

>>>My question would be: why strap an anvil around your ankles when learning to swim?

What a ghastly analogy to learning to play on a DP.

>>>Chris, when it comes to the topic of humans, I find myself a slow learner. I was probably in my 50s before I realized that people can afford what they want, and cannot afford what they don't want.

Hmmm... uhhhh... right. Tell that to the billions of families that make a dollar a day. My father was an alcoholic that left when I was 11. My mother worked two jobs and was on all kinds of government aid. A grand piano would have fallen through the floor of the "house" that I grew up in, not to mention being many years pay for my mother.

What an asinine thing to say. But of course, perfectly true for the Kennedys. I guess your belief system is very much determined by who you hang out with eh?

>>>Would I prefer all my students practice on grands? Of course. Would I refuse to teach them if they were limited to uprights or electronic substitutes? Of course not. They limit themselves when they choose this route. Why should I stand in their way?

Hmmmmm... do I get that your heart would not be into teaching such a child?

>>>>I didn't answer, but the answer is 1. It's mine and it's a loaner because the student couldn't afford anything other than lessons.

Hmmmmmmmmm..... Hardly a glowing "I'd teach any student that wants to learn..."

>>>The fact that I own 'em and loan to students ought to speak volumes.

That would appear to be student (singular)...

John... I apologize, you obviously did NOT say that "you only take students with pianos to practice on".

Notice that I also said that it is the right of any teacher to demand certain tools from the student, and to only take students with a certain level of education. Both of those things I find perfectly valid. It would help if you would preface your remarks with something like "Please understand I am a very talented pianist, and a very talented teacher, and I only have the time to take students who have displayed a certain level of competence". That would put your comments into context.

OTOH To call a DP an anvil around the ankle of a child that cannot even afford a DP is simply... breathtakingly ... well it leaves me speechless. To think that you actually LOANED such an anvil to some poor child is unconscionable!!! Why would you do such a thing?

Hello everyone, I'm an adult beginner who has been taking lessons for about 20 months. Since I began lessons, I have practiced on only a digital keyboard and the only times I have played on an acoustic are during my lessons. I want to buy an acoustic piano in the near future, but I have one concern. I'm worried that having practiced solely on a digital will irreparably impair my ability to develop skills that are best learned on an acoustic. That is, I'm worried I won't be able to adapt to an acoustic. I'm curious about experiences teachers have had with students who started on digitals and later switched to acoustics.

Nope, my point exactly!

Thanks for helping me out there!!!

I would say that a DP is limited (compared to a quality acoustic) in two ways. Sound and touch.

Over in the piano forum you will hear the sound and tonal qualities of a variety of pianos described in many ways. Some are bright or mellow, full, rich, dark, shrill, colorful etc. They can be called beautiful or they can have character. None of these descriptions seem to be applied to a DP. The best compliment you can pay a DP is that it sounds 'like a real piano'. Hence the state of the art Roland 'Virtual' piano. I have played top of the range DP's recently and good as they might be they still leave me cold compared to the real thing. A real piano gives me more feedback when I play. I feel more connected to the sound and more in control of it. It will respond to the subtle ways in which I can touch it. A DP will to a certain extent but still not close enough.

As far as touch is concerned I have yet to play a DP which feels exactly like a good acoustic. I can't feel the action in the same way and this does not give me confidence if I were to perform advanced repertoire. It will respond only to velocity. An acoustic has a mechanical action which you can only get the best out of when the keys are struck or played in the right way. A 3 year old child can play a key on a DP and it will sound no different to the same key played by a concert artist. Some might say this is a good thing and if you never intend to play an acoustic then perhaps that is true.

This might sound like I am being very critical of the DP. I don't mean to be and I appreciate that for many people it is the only option. It's just that for me the acoustic is a better match for the music I play and the situations in which I perform. I prefer it.

But I still don't feel that the DP limits progress. If at any time you want to explore the possibilities of an acoustic then all you need do is practise on an acoustic. I grew up with a mediocre upright and it did me no harm. When I went to college I had the oportunity to practise on grands. That is where I learned to get the best out of a grand. Up until then I hadn't needed to. When I started to perform more regularly on concert grands in large venues I had to learn how to get the best from them. Of course I didn't have one at home, who does? I needed to gain experience and practise in that situation.

Get the best you can afford or whatever suits your situation. Then forget about it and concentrate on learning to play.

Don't give it a second thought. As soon as you get the acoustic you will quickly adapt to playing an acoustic. No damage will have been done.

Chris,

And that is my point exactly. No one starts out a master pianist. First you have to learn to read music. To get your fingers to move together, to get your mind to interpret the notes on the page and translate them into the correct fingers moving.

All that "feel of the nuances of the string vibrating through the fingers and the pedal" is just pure intellectual snobbery until you get to the point where that may matter. And probably about 1% of all students ever get there. Most just learn to play enough to enjoy themselves, which is PERFECTLY OK.

If and when you make a decision to become a truly good pianist, THEN it almost certainly will make a difference.

In the meantime I don't hear any of the teachers saying that they have to start back at sight reading when they get an accomplished student that learned on a DP because the DP just "ruined them".

Even John hung an anvil around the ankle of one of his students and tossed him overboard. I am still flabbergasted about that one!

It is spurious, if not down right deceitful, to accuse teachers of something, when in PLAIN ENGLISH, they have stated to the contrary.

Kenny, you and I differed over two issues, as I recall - calling a non-piano a piano, and I'm the old fashioned one on that account, and whether a student could learn better on a piano than on a non-piano. I contend that they do, based on over 30 years of teaching students who had both type of learning instruments. Opinion is all well and fine, but I have experience to back up my opinion.

You should be. I never said anything of the sort. Perhaps you would you be so kind as to back up that accusation with a quote?

Some of us teach listening to the sound and the feel of the instrument and keys from the very first lesson. You should be so lucky as to find such a teacher.

And snobbery has nothing to do with it -- it's one of the main drivers which differentiates pianists who "sound good" from those who do not.

LOL, you should learn to read english as well as you read music. I already did. Third post in this thread. You said...



And then...



So.... to quote YOU...

A DP is "like an anvil around your ankle" and you loaned one to your student.

I will admit the "threw him overboard" is an embellishment. But a good one you have to admit. For the record I was not accusing you of offing one of your students.

C'mon John, it is your attitude, not mine.

Something strange is going on here. Several posts which didn't download suddenly downloaded, adding posts between what I received. Is anyone else having this problem? Thus, I didn't receive John C's initial reply.

John C, I believe you're taking an analogy out of context. My point, which I think is quite clear, is that you should get the best instrument you can afford. Of course, as a piano teacher, I firmly believe a piano is the better choice, all other things being equal, which they seldom are.

I haven't denigrated the electronic keyboard, rather simply believe that it has it's place.

For the record, in the summer of 2005, I spent an entire day at a training seminar put on by Roland. We played all of their instruments. Now, admittedly, that experience is four years out of date, but not one of the instruments we played came as close to the touch and feel of a piano as I would like for my students.

I see that Roland now has for sale a $27,000 "grand." I may have the opportunity to try it later this week, and I'll report back the progress made by the electronics community.

Something strange happened to me.....

I get things forwarded from the topics I'm interested in my email box and I can quickly read the new postings and keep up with a topic without being on the forum. The "watch" choice.

Darn, if something posted several days ago, and which I responded to, popped up to be read as a new incoming mail. The source of it is buried in the topic and many more new postings have been made since that.

It must be "burping"!

Betty

I should be so lucky as to find a teacher that cared that I (or my children) could take a lesson at all, and didn't really care that I didn't live in the Hamptons.

It is snobbery John. Sorry, it is!

You would not believe the comments I am getting off line from people saying "thanks for saying what I feel", and "my social security only goes so far".

Sorry John, snobbery is what it is. If you don't want to be "accused" of it, don't practice it. Or at least don't be so blatant with it.

I only discuss what I hear. And what I hear from you is that everyone YOU KNOW could afford a "real piano" if they wanted to. Snobbery, and not just the intellectual kind either. I sense that you consider yourself a nice guy John, and I believe you are, and that you care about what you do. Try to sound like one.

I am impressed by your giving lessons to a kid without the funds to buy a piano. I would be even more impressed if you told me you did so routinely. I am impressed by the fact that you loaned him a DP. I am not impressed by the fact that you consider the DP an anvil around his ankle.

I am not impressed by your "high fees" John, nor the parents dropping off the kids in 60K automobiles. I also earn "high fees", but I used them to adopt two children three years ago, NOT buy a Steinway, and I drive a 2004 Chevy van (perfect for two young children). It is a little sad that my children won't have you teaching them about "the sound and feel of the instrument and the keys", OTOH I am lucky to have them in my life, and they are lucky that they were removed from their bio-parent's "care". Life is all relative John! My kids will have to "make do" with a $100 used DP for awhile yet. I do believe that they will survive the experience though.

I am just mirroring back to you what you are saying John, things you are saying in this very thread. If you don't like it (and I can see why you wouldn't), stop saying it!

Something strange happened to me.....

I get things forwarded from the topics I'm interested in my email box and I can quickly read the new postings and keep up with a topic without being on the forum. The "watch" choice.

Darn, if something posted several days ago, and which I responded to, popped up to be read as a new incoming mail. The source of it is buried in the topic and many more new postings have been made since then.

It must be "burping"!

Betty