Anyone tried streaming piano lessons live online?

Suggestions for needed equipment?

I've been exchanging emails with a couple of teachers who are interested in trying this. They teach masters classes and a few private students (around their performing schedules).

Having been approached by potential students from other parts of the country (and/or the world), their thought is to teach live via the Internet.

I wondered if anyone had experience with this, and what equipment you and your student(s) use?

I have not yet experienced this first-hand, but I'm going to try it with my voice teacher who is in CA (and I'm in WI). I downloaded Skype, and it is fairly easy to set up. Of course, a web cam and a decent mic will be needed to make it work the best (and a fast internet connection). I'll let you know how it goes! I had talked with a guitar teacher who taught this way with some success, so I think this will be an up-and-coming way to teaching when being in person is not possible.

Edited to add: Skype is free to download and use, by the way.

Thanks Morodiene,

Yes, Skype was mentioned by the teachers too.
I'll have to try it myself.

As you say, the cam and the mic will be important.

In my case I'd be playing on a Yamaha P-80 (DP) so I could probably run the piano midi through the computer, and I have a decent Shure mic (SM57)(although I have no idea how one would run the mic through the computer).

However, I'm presuming most people taking lessons from teachers who are also concert pianist will likely be playing acoustic pianos.

Please do keep us informed.
It will be interesting to find out what works, and what doesn't.

I know there are places on the Internet that offer online lessons, but most of them do not appear to be live/interactive in real time.

I have taught but not music. The bare bones of teaching are the same whether you are doing automotive instructioon or piloting skills or math. I have used flip charts, black board , slides and video.

One thing I found is that students expect at least (with video)the quality of the evening news as to holding their attention. Anything less and they drift away. Get a copy of Great Courses "Understanding Music". Find someone who can project with the enthusiasm of the instructor there.

It is possible to have a facilitator who doesn't even know the subject (or at least in this effort isn't a super piano player/ piano teacher) with experts introduced as the need arrives. Avoid hide bound dogma. "Cause I said so" won't cut it.

Segment your presentation so as to define the audience as to material you wish to present. Do a walk about demo-ing the scope of the course, all of it. The prospective learner will likely jump too far ahead but he/she will soon settle at the right level.

Certainly present the usual methods but leave room for inovation (my own preference anyway). Bring everyone along, and that isn't the same as no child left behind. What a dumbed down pile of residue. Challange along with illuminate.

The equipment I used (only a few years back) is now totally obsolete so I can't offer much there.

James McPherson

Frank,

My big desire is to be able to do this.

Any information about how to accomplish the technical parts and the budgetary concerns is welcome information.

I think it's wonderful that you are looking in this direction.

The posted page is very often difficult to convey exactly what is meant - and readers often assert their own experiences into the mix of what is being read - which changes the content of the information based on how well they are understanding what is being said.

When an instruction is said to someone, the authority of it takes precedence, and the listener is more likely to respond accurately, or ask questions to clarify. With the teacher in view of the student and vise versa, an immediate collaboration can take place with which to end on a teaching/learning point that satisfies both of the participants.

This is easiest to do in weekly lessons, however the disadvantage there is that it is a very specific time, place. With video tapes, or online live video, it can be done from both persons "home port" and when it is easy to just connect "electronically".

I wish you would tell us more about your plans!

Is part of your reason for this the extreme problems people are having in understanding theory as well as seeing that people get stuck in their musicianship and feel frantic and frustrated.

That does not have to happen!

People who are ______ (fill in the blank)dramatic, need drama. If none is present they will create some. Like wise: frustrated, lost, lost in space. Those who are competent in everything they do, accountable, questing, have another set of behavior and tolerance. Part of music making is understanding the self you are working with and how it came to be that way, and then, how to affect good changes toward better understanding and grasp (not grasping) of music making.

Thank you for a fine forum.

Betty Patnude

I have recently set up such a system, using Skype.
So far, I have only used it with existing students, here in Australia. When the connection (both ends) is good, it is fine, but be prepared for some glitches.

As to equipment needed, I can anly describe my own setup.
(I teach both piano and guitar (beginner and intermediate)
For the audio side, I have a Kawai MP-5 stage piano, small Yamaha keyboard, electro-acoustic guitar, and microphone, connected to a small audio mixer.(Tapco Mix 60)
The output from the mixer goes into a usb audio interface, connected to a Windows PC, running Skype.

My Video arrangement, is slightly different from your average webcam setup.
I use two camcorder type cameras. (Most useful for guitar, as I can show, either hand) One is fairly new, the other, an oldish, out of style model, but works perfectly. ( Both these cameras have better quality lenses, than your standard webcam)
The analog video-out connections on the cameras, connect to a cheap video switch box, so that I can switch cameras instantly, on the fly.
The output of the switch box, goes to the analog-in connection of a video capture card, installed in the PC.

It is not normally possible to use analog video cameras with Skype, but there is a small, cheap software program available, that makes Skype think that I am using DV cameras.

I have also used this setup ( cameras, microphone, mixer) to record video lessons for a guitar student, who can not always make his lesson. I post it on a private web page so he can view and download it, at his convenience.
Hope some of this helps.

Rob

PS One the biggest problems, was positioning one of the cameras to show the keyboard effectively. The best I have come up with so far, was adapting a boom type microphone stand, to hold both the camera and microphone. Using the small remote control that came with the camera, I can also zoom in or out, easily.
If anyone is interested, I could take some pics of my setup.
It would also be interesting to see what others use.

Thanks Rob, any and all input is appreciated.

The teachers I'm talking with at the moment both have large acoustic grands.

However, your description of a mic and mixer using usb to connect to the PC would probably cover this. And the video capture card makes sense.

Of course the student would need a similar setup.

We're making progress here folks, please keep the feedback coming.

Hello Frank,

Using accoustic grands, would be even simpler. A mixer would not even be required. Just a microphone, suitably positioned to pick up both the instrument, and the teacher's voice.
This could be plugged in to the 'external mic' input, on a DV camcorder. The camera, could then be connected to the PC using the 'Firewire' connection.
Skype would then recognise this camera, without the need for additional software.

Edited to add: Don't forget to check out the features and add-ons, freely available for Skype, such as 'interactive white board sharing, desktop sharing, the ability to play an audio file, directly to the student in real time, transfer of files, pdf documents for manuscript, etc. etc.....the list goes on.

Also, if you have two internet computers available, you could set up a separate Skype account on each one, and trial the whole thing in the same room.

Rob, it sounds interesting but so complicated!

Heck, I don't even know what a firewire is yet. But I love this new technology coming along.

So, are you suggesting that a camcorder would be better than the webcam, and skype would recognize either?

I have watched recent Oprah shows where she uses skype. There are always glitches in the movements or voice to video.

I would imagine that they have some good equipment. (but maybe those who are recording don't???)

Rob,

~Are DV camcoders set up to accept something like the Shure SM57?
I realize the better the equipment, the better the recording.
But...
~Won't the streaming quality be limited by the speed of the users processor (computer) and Internet connection?
~ Does Skype set limitations on how much data can be streamed in a given time?
~ Does compression enter the picture?

Sorry to keep hitting you with questions, but you seem to have some experience with this and inquiring minds want to know :-)

Frank,
First let me apologise, for not realising earlier, that you are the Founder of this amazing forum.
For that, many thanks. It is an amazing resource. :-)

Secondly, I am far from an expert in matters Skype.
I just have a curious mind, and love to try out any new technology.
Not sure if I can answer your questions with any kind of authority, but here goes...

The DV camera I use, has an external mic input, so I assume most have, and your SM57, would connect to it. ( with a suitable adaptor)
The reason I use a mixer, is because I found that when using my camera ( a Canon MVX 330i )and connecting via firewire, I could not use any other audio source, than the camera's built in mic.
The mic I have, ( a condenser type) needs 48v 'phantom power', and the mixer provides this.
The mixer also allows me to connect a Digital Piano, guitar, etc., and control the volumes of each input. It was relatively inexpensive, just under $100 Australian.

Yes, the connection speed of both users, would play a part in the quality, as would general internet congestion, between the two connections.

I believe that Skype does introduce some kind of compression, or limitation on bandwidth, but that is unavoidable. Ther is no time limit, as far as I am aware, on the duration of calls, but lots of good info can be had on The Skype users forum (on the main Skype website)

Using the analog outputs ( the yellow RCA connectors) of the camcorders does not (in my case) result in any discernable loss in quality.

Some DV camcorders, are not capable of functioning as a webcam, so I would advise checking before purchasing.
Also, I found I had to remove the tape, to prevent the 'auto power off' function from kicking in, on my particular model.
Ironically, I get the best reults from an old Panasonic VX70 camcorder, which although outdated now, functions as well, or better than, the most expensive dedicated webcams available.
I am sure that many users will have something similar, lying in a box in the attic, somewhere.
Hope this answers at least some of your questions, and that someone with more experience that I, will happen along soon.

Regards,
Rob
PS I will try, over the next few days, to put together a short video, showing how I use my system. Hopefully it will be of help. I will let you know when it is done.

Hi Lilylady,
'Firewire' is simply a method of connecting digital equipment (cameras, audio devices, etc.,) to a PC. It is similar to USB.

To answer your second question, yes, a camcorder is generally of better quality than most webcams, However, webcams are designed specifically for the job, so easier to set up, but camcorders generally have higher quality lenses, and most people have one lying around doing nothing most of the time, so it makes sense to make use of it, if you don't already have a webcam.
And yes, Skype would recognise a DV camcorder, connected via Firewire or USB
You are right about the glitches. Not much we can do about that, I am afraid, except to close any unneccessary running programs whilst running Skype. The rest is down to your connection and the www :-)

Thank you for your help and explanations Rob.

I'll look forward to your video.

For 2 years, I have been hoping to do something via the internet with teaching or with MC, lessons. I knew that the technology was arriving and have anticipated it.

Soon, I'll be too old to continuing gardening for a vocation and want to get back into teaching, but maybe exploring something different from the past.

Frank, I look forward to you getting some master classes set up for us!

I use Skype all the time to "video chat" with other piano players (I'm not a teacher, just chatting with other online "piano friends).

All I have is a simple web cam with a mic builtin to the web cam and it works great. No mixer, no camcorder, just a very simple 1 usb wire connection to the computer and you're off and running.

Given how cheap a webcam is I'd suggest trying that first and see if the quality is satisfactory before investing in any higher quality more costly audio/video equipment.

The only tricky part is how you mount a web cam to get a good view of the keyboard.

I must admit, I brought my idea to teach online to Frank. I taught a young man in Singapore for a 10 minute lesson on specific stretching exercises--on Skype. Worked well--from an airport I did this. I simply used my MSI netbook and it worked rather nicely. I would most probably use my own larger laptop at home next to my Steinway 'B' though. Frank--we'll talk more about this when we are enjoying CO Springs and Keith Emerson next week!

I totally agree with you, DeepElem, that there is absolutely no need to invest in fancy equipment, especially as many computers these days, come already equipped with a web cam and built in mic.
I would certainly advise anyone, to try these first, to see if Skype is suitable for them.
Frank mentioned teachers who run master classes, and I would imagine that if they wish to demonstrate advanced techniques, dynamics, etc., over Skype, then video and audio quality would be of a high priority.

For mounting the camera over a keyboard, I use a microphone boom stand, adapted to take both the camera, and an external microphone. I would post a photo, but not sure if that is possible, or allowed here.

I've tried recording using just a webcam.
The video was acceptable, the audio was a disaster.

The little mic built into the webcam can't handle the range of my P-80 DP, I'm guessing it would have the same (if not worse) problem with a concert grand.

Although we aren't talking about trying to record cd quality audio, it would be important to capture as much of the nuances and overtones as possible, considering the teacher would be trying to critique a student who is paying a fair amount of money for an advanced lesson.

Rob,

Pictures are fine, note the "enter an image" choice next between the create a link to an email and enter a media tag in the Post choices.

The National Resource Center for Blind Musicians has successfully used Skype to teach Braille Music and access to music technology for the blind via distance education. Being blind myself, I am not sure of the visual aspects of this application. I have heard many good things about the audio quality.

Sorry to hear the audio was a disaster, Frank.
To get any kind of quality, I really think you need to connect the line out, or audio out, of your piano, directly to your computer's soundcard. That is assuming that you have a good quality card, with ASIO drivers, to eliminate the latency between striking a key, and hearing the sound. The best solution, would be a dedicated 2 channel audio interface that you can connect both the piano, and microphone into.
The main reason that I use a mixer, is so that I can have a microphone, guitar, D piano, and keyboard, all connected at the same time, and for ease of controlling levels, eq, etc.

Anyway, as promised, here is a pic of my cobbled together camera solution. The boom can be raised or lowered, depending on how much of the keyboard I need to show.

And here is the Tapco mixer. The piano outputs, microphone and guitar lead, are plugged in here, and the mixer output goes into the Edirol UR-80, audio/MIDI interface, connect to the PC via usb. (This interface would be overkill for most applications, but I use it to control Cubase, for recording.)

I have a little thread going in the Adult Beginners section. I just invested in a camcorder to get the lessons across better. I am amazed at the quality of picture and sound $500 bucks gets me.I am getting audio from the built in mic. The monitors are right near the camera, mounted on a mic stand above my head. This all takes place in the closet under the stairs.

To up load the material to a free storage site means converting to mp4 format.
It all takes time. A 3 min video takes an hour to download from the camera to the computer, edit, and convert to mp4 and upload to the online site.


When I hear students play back the material on line, there is a whole lot of things I could do in person, like watch posture and tension in the hand, that I could fix in 2 seconds. On line and from a midi file, things are more difficult. I think recording makes the students tense.

I find the on line students have entirely different expectations than the students that walk in the door of my studio. Maybe the students online have visited too many sites that guarantee to have them playing like a pro in 2 days.
I guess I need a clearer definition of the word pro before I buy into that idea.


I am wondering about copyright issues. How risky is it to use copyright material for educational purposes?

I have been avoiding the copyright issue by writing my own material. The down side is that teaching a student their favorite song gets a whole lot more practicing out of them and they learn familiar melodies much quicker. The upside is that I am writing a lot of new material.

If any one can fill me in on protecting a digital book from being easily spread across the internet, I sure would enjoy that conversation.

I would be appealing perhaps, to professional pianists, students of all levels, and teachers looking to perfect their teaching craft. I would also be expecting to hear from pianists preparing for international competitions, concerts with orchestra and solo recitals, auditions etc. I have already found that teaching the Rachmaninov stretching exercises this way proved to be fruitful. The traditions of Josef Lhevinne through my teacher, Adele Marcus, would be quite exciting to teach via today's technology. I am sure they would have done the same. Frank, we can explore this all further in CO.

The SM57 will sound best if run through a mixer. It needs something to boost the volume if you are going to use that mic. In videos I've made, I have a simple 4 track mixer with aux outs (L and R) that go to 8th inch (like ipod head phone size) that plugs right into the mic input in your computer. This way, you can have four tracks to mess with that all mix down to a single output (one track voice, one track keyboard, perhaps two tracks with two mics on an acoustic piano, etc ) These mixers are fairly inexpensive. Also, depending on the camera you are using, you just need to make sure you have your windows settings set to not use the camera mic and to instead pull from the mic input.

Example inexpensive mixer:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-XENYX-802-Mixer-103845053-i1153499.gc

I'm a first-time poster here. I have an alternate option which came about as a result of offering online lessons, which I do mostly because I have a specialized technqiue. I am set up to use Skype and a webcam. However, there's a little delay sometimes with Skype, or some minor pixilating, so what has actually worked really well with at least one long-distance student, is to have an on-going video dialogue using Vimeo. For instance, he makes his own video of himself playing, his questions and/o0r comments. He can instantly upload the video, and I can watch it right away. Then I make a response video, specific to his individual needs. It can go back and forth for however long is needed. Vimeo is kind of like youtube, but it's less populated, less commercial, and very easy to use. Also the videos can be longer.

That sounds quite interesting, although I am looking to teach direct 'live' on the scene. Before I move forward with this idea, as I am on faculty also at Brooklyn College and the CUNY Graduate Center, I would have to see how many people would be interested to take online lessons with me. Out of the thousands of readers here, I would probably limit myself to 10 hours per week.

If you decide to use an inexpensive analog mixer, read this article on the best way to hook it up to your computer to avoid feedback. http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_hookup_a_mixer.htm

This was an interesting post to me because for the web show i am setting up this is sort of a related matter. Jazz piano Educator heres my setup. I have a Canon zr500 cheap yes i know lol. But anyway i also have a logitech headset. A good tripod thats about it. now heres where it gets interesting. So i have the application webcam dv that allows you to use your dv camcorder as a webcam. but then i also have an application called webcam max so you dont have to take the audio from your camera but the headset also i would guess the shur mic would work too and i think the web cam max gives better quality in my opinion but then for skype to choose a webcam to go to you click webcam max because it combines the video from webcam dv to the mic you are trying to input. Just as simple as that. :]

Mario seems to be the one to talk to...

http://www.youtube.com/user/mariocast

Hmmm, Mark, I think you are right. Looks like he's got it down.

Looks like he's using Classroom Maestro for at least part of that. I know nothing about it but here's a link:

http://www.timewarptech.com/Pages/Products/CM/CM.html

Classroom Maestro looks interesting if you are using a digital keyboard.

Jeffrey (Biegel) is trying to determine the best hardware (mics, cameras, etc.) to use with an acoustic piano.

I'm thinking about doing something similar, and will likely use the following:

MXL 604 microphones
PreSonus Firebox audio interface

...plugged into my Macbook using either iSight or Skype. I still need to research that - I don't think the problem is as much the hardware as getting the software to transmit a high audio quality. Most chat software assumes speech and tailors the audio bandwidth to a limited frequency range. The piano has a very wide frequency range, and this is why the piano sounds tinny or thin over telephones and built-in computer mics.

Hi,
I am an advanced performer; I am a student, doing PHD, and also teach for over 8 years. The age of my students varies from 4 to 62. I do not teach just for fan, I plan my lessons for specific purposes i.e. performance or at least a degree or grades in music.
The touch and visual observation of students is very important, often by simply watching them from distance we may miss the poor hand position, or posture which in tern may lead to complications. Often inappropriate attack of the keys may not be obvious when using soft ware.
I personally would never take lesson or teach online.

Dear all, I hate to thing, that I may offend other members of this forum.
Of course the idea may work well, but I think there is a danger, especially in teaching younger students, to miss things, which are fundamental for their musical development.
It is simply my thoughts, but I would love to be proved wrong.

Doesn't offend me at all. I think online learning is only really effective in "coaching" situations where you're helping someone who's already got the basics down. I think the idea student for online music learning is an adolescent or adult who's looking for advice on how to manage specific goals they want to achieve.

I believe that is what Jeffrey had in mind.

I started this thread because of discussions I've had with Jeffrey (Biegel, concert pianist) about reaching out to students around the world.

His students tend to be quite advanced pianist and/or piano teachers who teach at a high level. They could also be someone who is preparing for a competition, or working on a particular piece and needs (as Kreisler states) some "coaching".

All that said, I have found some interesting sites that teach lessons "online", like this one for jazz piano ... http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/

I would not recommend strictly studying online, as I don't think they should be considered a substitute for a good teacher. However, there are opportunities to learn theory (something I'm sorely lacking in) and for live interactive coaching.

Which brings me back to the hardware questions.

I'd like to see some setups the are working with acoustic pianos.
If anyone has any good live examples, please let me know.

I have to say, that I think there is a huge future in online 'live' lessons. There are many people, who for one reason, or another, are reticent about either, travelling to a teacher's studio, or having a teacher come into their home. Some people prefer a non face to face situation, where they may otherwise feel intimidated, or judged. I make it clear, that there is no requirement for the student to show their face, if they don't want to. ( I don't show mine, as I don't want to scare them off, LOL )
You have to be prepared to spend a little more time, than you normally would for a lesson, due to web glitches, etc., but I am sure that will improve in the future.
Some time needs to be spent, on making sure the student has the optimum setup, and environment, but I have found that a great teacher/student relationship can be achieved, very easily, and quickly.
As to mic-ing up an acoustic piano, I have no experience, but a reasonable quality microphone, plus another for the teacher's voice, both run into a small mixer, or multi input audio interface, would be easily set up.
With my small mixer and audio interface, I can switch seamlessly from piano, to guitar, at the turn of a knob, and also use my voice microphone at the same time.
Using Skype add-ons, I can play any audio file to the student, or send pdf files, etc.
It all takes a bit of experimentation, but can be worth it in the end.
Here in Australia, there are many people living in remote areas, who have no other access to music lessons, so maybe they are more used to using internet alternatives.

Edited to add: If anyone would like to test out their Skype connection, I would be happy to oblige. it is always interesting to see how different connections around the world, perform.

Good points Rob.

I know Jeffrey has done some teaching/coaching already over the Internet.

I can certainly see the advantage where the student and teacher are many miles apart.
That was Jeffrey's point. It isn't that he doesn't want to teach in person, that would be preferred. But he gets approached by people from across the country and around the world.

My goal with this thread, besides getting valuable feedback, is to determine the minimum hardware (and software) needed to make this work.

I realize the set up would be different for a digital piano (which is all I have right now) and an acoustic.

I'm hoping a few people can weigh in with what they are using for mics, mixers, interfaces, and software.

I know I've tried recording my playing just using a web cam. Although the video was acceptable, the audio wasn't. And I wasn't trying to stream it live.

Keep the feedback coming folks, we're getting some good information and interesting perspectives here.

Rob...
Thanks for the offer to let us try Skype connections with your location. Considering I'm in the Southeast part of the U.S. (Florida) and you are on the other side of the world, it would be a good test.

I'll have to take you up on your kind offer once I get something in place. Now, how do I get the camera to remove about 45lbs of my ample tummy before it transmits?

I'm interested in online teaching too, but with a responsible outcome to what transpired in the teaching.

There is nothing worse then to provide a lot of information to a student who is just not ready for it, confusion begats confusion.

Interactive lessons where there is listening together and communicating about the lesson being taken is much better for teaching purposes than a video that covers so much general information.

It is a "wasteland" of information if it is not applied to structure of what is already known. Learning "legato" (in a smooth and connected flow of information gathering) is as important as learning the playing technique of "legato" .

To me, this implies the teacher and the student are connected.

When I look at videos I can see and hear and watch points being made, but my level of understanding is quite advanced and augmented by 38 years of teaching piano. Not much escapes me.

The learner looking at such things, gets a clue, but can't guite grasp it into action on his own.

I like video teaching online from the idea that a lot of people can get a lesson plan started, being efficient for the teacher instead of always one on one with the student - but there needs to be an interface between the teacher and the student where they "mingle" together in discussing what is happening with this particular learner. It's also on-going, not one time.

So if I could employ the technical capacity to enhance my studio teaching, I would. If I could teach to the world, I would. But I would insist on their being some kind of evaluation from the teacher to the student to edu-cate them.

"Do this - do that" imitative teaching reduces to no to little expectation that the student is going to get the teaching points and be able to run with it.

Musicians looking down from a higher level of preparation are going to profit more from on line teaching and videos, the ones in beginner to advancing are not going to have as successful outcome as foreseen. The learner needs guidance, mentoring, coaching, teaching from a live person with whom they can interact.

Many learners do work on their own and enjoy it - but more so, it produces problems in pianists perceptions that have been built upon even more so, and the result is that you have a person trapped and frustrated because their attempts have not come to fruition in producing an independance musician who easily makes music at the level they have reached. If may be reparable, it may not. We see problems all the time in transfer students, and in people who have been self teaching.

Playing piano is a very unique set of intelligence - something that needs shaping and explaining and discussion - it does not come to you just by sitting on a piano bench facing in the right direction. You have to know how to apply it.

This is the teacher's domain. It's an essential thing if you expect to be accomplished at your instrument. Otherwise musicians would never have the need to take lessons if it were attainable by doing it yourself, or from a video.

The piano encompasses 88 keys and 10 fingers and a brain to operate. Heavy equipment workers need licensing, we should be "licensed", too, by a "training program".

Piano is not a casual undertaking at all but we all hope to do our best at it starting from where we are and by whatever means are available.

Betty Patnude

Hello Betty,
Forgive me if I am wrong, but your post implies that we are talking about pre-recorded video lessons, here?
The use of Skype, (or similar) enables us to have exactly the real-time interaction between teacher and student, that you rightly endorse.
The lessons are conducted 'live', with immediate feedback and communication between the two parties.

Of course, this can never replace lessons in person, in the same room, but allows those, who, for one reason or another, are unable to travel to a teacher, to have lessons 'in person'.
The technology is already being used for many teaching applications. Language learning, etc., and can only improve over time.
It is also possible for the student to record the 'live' lesson, to view again later.

To Frank,
I realise that your tummy concerns, were said in jest, but it is a valid point, and the beauty of the technology, is that you can simply focus the camera onto the keyboard, or other instrument, and can remain completely anonymous if desired.

Rob

Rob,

Could you PM or email webmaster@pianoworld.com me your Skype info?
I'd like to give it a try, and the distance between us would make an interesting test.

Of course we need to coordinate the timing.
I'm in Southeast Florida, EDT in the U.S.
I believe that makes me GMT - 5:00

Best,

Frank B.

Hi Frank,
Email sent.

Regards,
Rob

Well, I got my Skype account working and bought a good webcam with built in mic. We tested out the sound quality with my husband in one room and me in the other, and it seemed decent enough. Not great, but enough I think to pick up nuances. The visual was clear, but a bit choppy. All in all, I was quite pleased. I'll be taking skype lessons from my voice teacher in CA, and there may be some students of mine who will be moving away that would be interested in them as well (both voice and piano). I'll let you know how my lessons turn out! If it goes well, I may start advertising online lessons

Thanks Morodiene,

I'm hoping to try it out Thursday night with Rob in Australia.
Thinking the distance (I'm in FL, U.S.) should be a good latency test.

Best,

Frank B.

Congrats on getting set up, Morodiene.
I hope it works out for you.

Just for general info, there is a Skype add-on, called 'PrettyMay' call recorder. The basic version is free.
I don't use the recording function, but there is a facility in the program, to play audio files stored on your computer, via Skype, to the other party, in real time, whilst you are chatting. It has it's own Start/Stop, and volume controls.
This is great for sharing recordings you have made, or for playing a recording of a piece, or song, that you are teaching/learning, etc.

Rob

Rob,
Thanks for the info! I think that can be very helpful, especially for singing when I'm playing clips that show them what I want them to do.

I was looking at your website to see how you had things set up policy-wise, and was wondering why you decided to do that "pay as you go"? Was it just to ease people's minds about doing this online? As it stands, I think I'd only offer skype lessons to students that I already know, but I still see my time in preparing for lessons and reserving a time for lessons still worth a value, and skype lessons might be even easier to "miss". What has been your experience with the business end of things?

Morodiene,
To be honest, I only decided try Skype, when one of my guitar students moved over 2,000 miles away, to the East of Australia, but wanted to continue her lessons, so I don't have that much experience yet. I also use it with another student, who only lives 15 mins away, but is not always available on his appointed day, so we can fit in a lesson when we both have free time, and happen to be online.
A family member in the UK is keen to start soon.
I agree that teaching existing students is so much easier, as a relationship has already been established in person.
As to my 'policy' I am thinking of refining it slightly. I thought that PAYG, as you say, would give both parties a chance to find out if Skype was a viable alternative.
I am just testing the water at the moment.
I would love to hear about others' experiences.

Rob

It seems to be a tough call, because with Paypal you could do that very easily with no extra paperwork. And if there are technical issues that prevent the lesson from happening, then that would also have to be considered. However, if it is a set time that you are getting together on a regular basis, it makes sense that a policy should be set up for tuition rather than pay as you go, just because it means a commitment on the part of the student, which I have found gets better results. A parent is more likely to make sure their child practices and prepares and not blow off lessons if they've invested money into it (likewise for adult students as well).

I agree absolutely with all you say, but the Skype model, is still in it's infancy for me, and I think it is more likely that people will sign up for 'one off' lessons, to see how it goes for them. If the PayPal payment is not made in advance, the lesson does not happen, simple as that.
This particular type of distance learning is a relatively new phenomenon, so I am prepared for a little give and take, on both sides, in the initial stages.
Personally, I would not be prepared, at this stage, to entertain teaching children over this medium. It is fraught with pitfalls.
I should declare at this stage, that I have no wish, or qualifications, to teach advanced students. I am more interested in adults, who wish to learn to play piano, or guitar, purely for their own pleasure. My lessons are structured to the individuals' needs and wishes, and conducted in a relaxed and informal atmosphere, as far as possible.
I believe that any student requiring formal or advanced tuition, would find the Skype environment, very restricting, on many levels.

I agree it is very limiting, and not ideal for any student, honestly. However, with those students of mine who are graduating and would like to continue or are moving away (possibly out of the country where they would have to take lessons in another language) it could be a great solution. In those cases I don't think there'd be a problem with paying in advance, with some flexibility for technical problems.

I also agree that it would not be good to teach children this way, because they do need something a bit more engaging. Most of my students are not serious musicians and do this for enjoyment as well. I think the toughest part will be in instances where being there to actually help the student via touch is necessary.

Has anyone visited this site

http://OnlinePianoLessonsLive.com

Looks like a great place to start an international career.
Also, an even better place to take lessons.
Everything I have seen in this thread is OLD STUFF.
This site takes online teaching to a new level.

First of all there is nothing for the teachers or the students to download or install on their computers.

Second They also give Group lessons, because there is no limit to the number of video streams they can process.

The only requirements are a web cam and to have Flash Player installed.

Let me know if you like it ... pintwister@hotmail.com

PinTwister,

We don't need a commercial for a web site you represent, we need facts about hardware and software, and why it works.

I don't care how many "streams" a system can handle.
We are interested in quality, latency, etc.

Saying all the student needs is a web cam tells me right away you aren't talking about anything that will help.

First, web cams vary greatly in quality, second, the tiny little mics built in tend to produce horrible audio quality when you are trying to stream a concert grand piano with someone playing something like the Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 3.

Another option people in this thread may want to look into is regular video. And no, I'm not talking about myself. You can have a teacher create a video for you and discuss it via email or chat.

It's another option. I personally don't do this but may start if the interest is there.

The problem with this is the interaction is delayed. They have to watch, remember their question, respond, wait for an answer, etc. Live streaming is really more effective, IMO.

Well, I am pleased to confirm, that a Skype connection between me, in Perth, Australia, and Frank, in Florida, USA, was a complete success, with barely a milli-second of delay, or frozen video.
Frank appeared as though he was on live TV, and our various instruments sounded great, and there was absolutely no delay between fingers on keys, and sound ocurring, either end.
Furthermore, I have to say, that Frank is an all round great guy!
Thanks for the opportunity, and experience, Frank.
It was a pleasure to 'meet' you :-)

Rob
PS It would be interesting to know, Frank, the specifications of the laptop you were using, and also your connection type?

Wonderful!

I am particularly interested in what equipment was used. I have a somewhat nice web cam with built in mic, so I wonder if that will be sufficient or if I should set up a better mic (which I do own, but it would be a pain to set up as I use it regularly for in person lessons).

Surprisingly (to me), the built in web cam in my laptop seemed to work just fine.

I have an external web cam, and a decent mic, but I couldn't get them working through Skype (will work more on that later).

As it is, the built in camera and mic apparently worked ok.

No doubt better equipment would yield better results, but I'm not sure it's necessary.
The one variable that does seem important is the speed of the connection.

I hope to experiment more with this, and I know the concert pianist/teacher I've been talking to is anxious to work with it.

Ya, I would think one has to have a high-speed connection and not dial-up for any success.

How close was the webcam to your piano? Was it just showing you hands the whole time, or was it further back to show you face and hands from a little bit of a distance?

Very cool, and very interesting.

Can I ask how good the visibility was of your (and Frank's) fingers/hands? It would seem that the key to make this work for teaching is for the teacher to be able to see absolutely clearly what's going on with fingering and hand positioning and tension and the like, and I know I don't always get a good sense of that when I'm watching YouTube videos, say.

Rob and I experimented. He actually had two cameras set up, with a switch so he could switch between them. He also had a small mixer and some other equipment.

When I had the separate web cam working, I could hang it over the keyboard (on a mic stand) and zoom in or out to show the entire keyboard and my hands (as well as some of my round tummy). For some reason Skype insisted on working from my laptop internal camera, but I'm sure that's my fault.

Frank,
You should be able to find and disable your laptop's onboard camera, by going to 'System Properties > Hardware > Device Manager'
Then when you plug in your USB camera, Skype should 'see' it.

It may also be possible to choose either camera, by using a small program called DVdriver, or another called SplitCam, without the need to disable the onboard camera.

Rob

Hey friends,
I have heard about online free piano lessons that are available at single click. I was so passionate about learning piano but i don't found any teacher around in my city. But when i searched on net i found there are so many sites available that provide these lessons at you home.

I didn't see this thread when it was "live".

Morodiene, how are things working out with Skype? Two years on, is the concept of online lessons more common? Is the communication good enough for the teacher to be able to see/hear what the pupil is doing, and convey advice on what the pupil should be doing?

Kaira, if you wish to advertise, on piano world, the forum is not the place to do so. Click your link in your post to find the proper way.

Resurrecting an old topic to insert a link is one of the classic ways spammers try to sneak ads in, so don't try to deny it...