Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum New GE-20 Muddy bass sound

Hi,

I have purchased a new GE-20 kawai. The piano tech has made one visit after I panic-called the store because it was out of tune at delivery. The piano also had issues of sounding muffled to me (playing it made me feel like I had cotton in my ears) I was used to a Yamaha U1, and don't know if that influences me a lot, being a very bright piano. She worked on it for a long time, and did harden the hammers. The piano was much better, but it still sounds muffled to me, and the bass is very very muddy. She will make another visit in a few weeks and I'm wondering how I can make sure the piano is brightened up, or that it actually can be brought up enough.
Thanks so much for any help
beth

How did you like the piano prior to it being delivered? The piano should sound right to you BEFORE it arrives at your house.

The tone cane be manipulated substantially but every piano will have certain tonal characteristics that cannot be altered by just working with the hammers.

I don't believe the dealer should be responsible for custom voicing work. That really is the owners responsibility. Tone is so incredibly subjective. People's taste's range from extremely mellow to "thumbtacks in the hammers (please don't do this)" loud and bright.

The problem with the bass on these small grands is that if you brighten the tone up it will emphasize more of the upper harmonics in the sound which may also sound weird. However you can always try it and see how you like it. Just be willing to pay a competent technician a good wage to do this work.

As one of my mentors says "I'm happy to accompany you on your journey to perfection. However, the meter is running."

If you liked the piano at the store, did you check the serial # to make sure you got the same piano? Was it in tune at the store? Pianos don't go wildly out of tune from the store to the home. If the piano was in tune at the store, and delivered out of tune, perhaps the piano came from the warehouse, not the store.

Hi,

There were only two in the store, one ebony and one maple. I liked the brighter tone of the ebony one, but this is a huge place and the acoustics are very different from my home, and he assured me it could be brought up. The tech did do this, but it needs more. The tone is beautiful in the mid to upper range. She told me to live with it a while, that its a big change from the yamahas, and she can do more when she comes. I did think to copy the serial no, and its the same one.

I wonder if molecular realignment (over time as the instrument is played) will improve matters for you, along with voicing. Maybe your piano is too new? Maybe the other piano has been on the floor a lot longer or received more use?

(I'm only guessing here. I've never worked for a Kawai dealership, so I'm not sure what's "normal" for a factory-fresh new Kawai.)

That molecular realignment will do it alright. (BTW what is that?)

I'm wondering if I'm the only tech here who has to Google every piano that is referred to by make and model rather than by make, style or size. (I know what a 5'1" grand is, but St. Google has to be invoked to determine what a Shlamgergoine xf52 is)

annieb,

I'm not a tech, so I probably shouldn't post replies here. However, I do own a Kawai, and my experience was that when new they sound rather soft and "fuzzy." It will brighten up pretty quickly, though, as you play it and the hammers compact a bit. It may never be as bright as thee U1 you loved, though. Kawais just tend to be less bright on average than do Yamahas. Sorry if I stepped on any toes by spouting off in the tech forum.

I did some Googling and the following link describes it well:

http://www.acousticguitar.com/gear/advice/vibration.shtml

With regular use, the tone of a string and wood instrument will continue to develop over time.

My thinking is that... Say if one piano was on the floor for a year or more, and the other was newly delivered and barely played or demonstrated, the character of the one may be more developed than the other. Even if the "older" piano wasn't played much, it could still very well be resonating with other instruments being played in the store, and even random sounds, thus developing its tone.

It's interesting that the tech told her to "live with it for a while." When I read this, it got me thinking about molecular realignment.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle...

Not why is the one piano weak, but why is the other one strong.

Kawais tend to be on the mellow side, particularly when new. The hammers will get harder as the piano gets more play, and this in turn will brighten the tone. Play it hard, play it often, get it tuned frequently, have it regulated when necessary.

The GE 20 is a small piano, and as such has short bass strings. I think the bass strings may even be shorter than those on the U1. (I may be wrong here...). As such, they won't create as full a spectrum of sound as you would get from the strings of a longer instrument. Short pianos that are overly bright can be very harsh sounding. Kawai and other manufacturers prefer a more mute--or softer, if you will--tone, particularly on the smaller instruments.

Give it time, and lots of play. It will improve.

You are not alone, but do you want to be known as someone that does the same things that UnrightTooner does??? (BTW, I did not look up molecular realignment, either.)

Ok, this all helps. And answers the other question in my mind without my having outright asking, which is great. (which was, if I have the tuning and voicing that the tech is coming to do when the weather settles and the piano is a few months old, I want to make sure she doesn't go overboard because the instrument hasn't settled enough or been played enough. I'm assuming "unhardening" the hammers is harder than "hardening" them (if not impossible?)

A good excuse to ignore other responsibilities and play, play, play.
Thanks!
beth

Annie,

Occasional shaping and voicing of the hammers will keep your piano sounding pretty good. How much and how often depends on the amount and intensity of play it gets. Hammers get compacted, but can and should be softened from time to time. Conversely, overly soft hammers can be voiced up using various techniques.

Simple guidelines of piano maintenance:

Tuning deals with pitch(string tension)
Regulation deals with the mechanical aspects of the instrument that relates to the way it feels when you play it, or touch
Voicing deals with tone, the type of vibration created when the hammer strikes the string

These things, and innumerable others, create the piano experience. Because pianos are constructed of materials that change over time, expect the sound and touch to change, sometimes gradually, sometimes quickly.

Enjoy!

The link to molecular realignment dealt principally with guitars, for one thing, and for another sounded like a lot of speculation and fuzzy, unscientific thinking attempting to pose as a serious theory. The best policy is to be VERY skeptical pending more information (and I'm being as kind as I can).

Hi Roy,

The effect is well-known...
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/27/science/when-violinists-play-their-violins-improve.html?fta=y

A string instrument that is regularly played will continue to improve in tone, though there is dispute as to why this effect occurs. There's more to it than just the hammers getting harder.

The piano is a string instrument as well as a percussion instrument. The piano has strings, bridges, and a wooden soundboard.

...until it starts to get worse.

I assume you mean due to mechanical issues

My tuner came and prepped my Kawai RX2. He made the bass sound more full and slightly deeper byt regulation the action so the hammers travel a bit further to hit the stings, resulting in a slightly stronger blow. This made a BIG difference. The tone of the piano was a bit thin before that.

Now, smaller pianos can emhasise upper harmonics in bass strings. Maybe a good tech can then voice the bass area to improve the fundamental. All these things can only improve the sound of the piano. What you want really is to have this piano produce the best sound that it is capable of.

Best wishes

Dear annieb,
I am sorry that you are disappointed with your new piano. Having a new piano installed is very exciting and we always hope that we have chosen wisely.
Your perception of the piano's sound will be different in your home from how you heard it in the dealer's showroom. A different acoustic setting changes our impression of the sound. For example a piano will sound very "bright" and resonant on a wooden floor in a room with sparse furnishings. That same piano may sound muted to our ears in a room which has carpet, heavily upholstered furniture and drapes. Ceiling height and the shape and size of the room also affect how we hear piano sound.

I am sure that there is no problem with your new piano and remember that new pianos develop their sound most in the first year with regular playing as well as good tuning and maintenance.

Best wishes for your enjoyment of your new piano.

Robert.

Thanks,

I am getting used to it, gradually. Am happier with it when I play jazz/blues kinds of things, somehow. The room has wood floors, only a couch as to upholstered furniture, but a large wool rug underneath. Relatively high ceilings, and room opens on both sides to wood floors and minimal upholstery. I think the Yamaha that I had is a part of it, just so different. The neotex (sp?) keys have a different feel, also, and I think this is an adjustment period for me.

I do think the tech will have to brighten it up at least some. I do think that the piano had not been on the floor long, so I expect it to have to be tuned more often for a while as it "settles down."
beth

Annieb,

Getting a new piano sure can be trying! I just got one on April 6, and find that I have to adjust to it also. Simply put, it's different from what I played previously.

At first, I think I compared the new one to the old one, using the old one as a reference standard. That is, if it was different from the old one, what was wrong with the new one? The more I play the new one, the more I like it. (Although as in your case, it is going out of tune and will require a visit from the dealer to tune and do some minor voicing.)

My thoughts are that you should relax and just try to enjoy your new instrument. I would be slow to start changing things before you really have a chance to acclimate to your new instrument.

My piano is a different size and brand of grand, so I don't have any model-specific information to share.

Hop