I do not know what to do .I have been practicing, practicing. I have read books and books. I know theory in detail. But I just cannot play it. I can play the sheet music standards(from realbook format) perfectly, but when I have to improvise I am stuck. Are threre any tips anything. Please do not get me wrong I am not trying to find the easy way, I practiced and practiced, I promise, But it just isnt coming. Please help me.

I even tried with some fairly easy chord progressions like am7 and dm7, and with some more complex like bB7, bE9, adim, D7 etc, but its not in progression, its in rythm and phrases, I just cant make these jazzy phrases

I feel your pain!

I bought the Tim Richards Exploring Jazz Piano book - volume I. The CD is great and at least I have that to try to copy his articulation.

I have not yet grown into my screen name.

Dario,

if you want to swing, flowing and phrasing, the best thing is to do this:
Buy yourself a few mp3 of Louis Armstrong with his hot seven. Stuff from the 20s. You really can't go wrong with that stuff.

Then learn to sing these solos along with the record. Sing in pitch as much as you can. If you have software to slow it down, go for it. You don't have to sing good, but you do have to sing in pitch. That's the key to training your ear. Even if your voice spans one octave, you shift octaves, that's ok.

Maybe you think you can sing, but chances are, you can't, so as excruciating as that might sound, record yourself singing over the record, and check that you got it correctly.

If you can actually sing a solo, playing it is really not that hard. It's all about ear training.

Do 1/6 a dozen Louis.

When you're done with Louis, pick up some Lester Young from the 30s. Count Basie 1930s basically. Do the same exercise with Lester Young.

You will be blown away by how simple, but extremely effective Lester or Louis were. Forget all those books with scales and stuff. They told a story in each and every single line.

The problem with books is that they really don't help all that much. They're good for understanding but they can't help you play.

So the other thing you do, you pick an easy tune, with easy progression like you mention. Ellington for example. Then you compose a solo. You write it on paper, using mostly 8th notes, and repeating.
Do one phrase, then answer by the phrase that comes after. Go over it as much as you want, until you like the phrase. Your phrase.

I have examples of that in my blog, if you care to look. I record while playing rather than singing, but I do sing along everything. The keyboard helps me identify each pitch.

Also, if you care to record your solos and post them here, some folks might be able to provide good feedback. You're probably not as bad as you say you are.

take care

I'm a rank amateur, currently sticking solely to classical music at the moment. But many years ago could do a little bit with a basic blues progression. 3 simple repeating chords. My advice is to just let yourself go. Boogie Woogie's a great way to get started. Just find a repeating pattern with the left hand and let your right hand roam. You almost can't make a mistake. Gradually you'll hear what sounds good, develop some basic riffs and you're off to the races.

Hope that helps a little...

The faster you play, the harder it is to swing.

Try slower tempos. 112 is a good swing tempo. It gives you room to back off the "swing" half of the eighth notes.

Technically, yes, because it's more difficult to control each note's duration and placement.
If you listen to my Chopin improv example in my sig line, you'll hear what a strong swing at approx. 360 bpm. sounds like.
Each pair of notes isn't only shuffled, but the dynamic partitioning of the phrasing contour is pure be-bop.

Yes, but how does that help the poor OP learn how to swing?

If your bass line is in quarter notes, the tempo is ~180.

It is very hip, though.

r.h. eights are going by at roughly 12 per second = 16ths at 180, or standard eight note improv at approx. 360.
As most standard be-bop books relegate the metronomic tempo marking to reflect eight note improv, for example, Donna Lee = 240, the relative metronomic marking for it is eights at 360.
At tempos faster than that, it's increasingly difficult to impart that type of extremem independent dynamic spin and metric shuffle on each phrase.

Someone said it's difficult to swing at tempos exceeding 112. My sound file is a good example of how a ful swing sounds at high speed. Most are not familiar with that type of piano sound, a full swing usually the realm of horn players alone at those tempi.

accent the and of the beat for some auto swing

Honestly, I am confused by the question (and by the title of this thread)...what is it you are actually struggling with? There are some answers here that address the mechanics of swinging (which would be more clear to say "playing swing eighth notes"), but your actual question seems to be about struggling with improvising.

If you're struggling with all of that, no problem. A very common problem for novice jazz players. Practicing and reading books will only take you so far.

I always recommend going back to the internalization issue. How much time do you spend actually listening to jazz? Is it only a small part of your overall listening? If it is the majority of your listening, how much time do you actually spend with focused listening (not "listening" with music in the background of whatever task you're doing).

The reason why is that internalization happens with focused listening. I don't want to portray myself as any kind of an expert, but I find that I can't listen to music in the background. It usually draws too much of my attention.

In my opinion, being a musician and playing music, jazz included, is all about internalization. My Jr. High School band director kept talking to us about "singing it in your head" (but I find that for me it is closer to my gut than my head).

I you want to learn and play jazz, and skip the internalization step, I'm afraid I can't help.

There's a jazz saxophonist, Dave Liebman, who makes the point that you don't need to listen to piles of different albums. You really only need one. But it has to be the right one (for you). For me, it has been a lot of fun figuring out which ones are the right ones (and I don't listen to a whole of ones that are the wrong ones).

Guy

I said that quarter note = 112 is a good swing tempo. I didn't say that you couldn't swing faster than that, I wanted to suggest to someone who is working on swing tecnique that practicing a tune at 112 would be a good way to start.

As Guy said, you need to listen in order to learn the vocabulary. To become comfortable improvising you should start small. You say you are comfortable playing the lead sheets, so start with small changes to the melody. At first only change the rhythm, moving some notes ahead in time, others back, and perhaps subdividing longer notes into a couple of repeated notes. When you are comfortable with this try approaching some melody notes from a half or whole step above or below. Not playing is as important as playing, so try not playing some of the melody notes at all. If you've got too much space now try filling some of it in with scale or arpeggio ideas. By the time you've done all of this you're improvising and it's just a matter of listening, studying, and experimenting to become more proficient and experienced. If you've caught the bug you'll be doing this last step for the rest of your life.

112 is far too fast to start at. 60 is a much better starting point.

Of course, swing, swingless swing (no shuffle, just dynamic accents), and the amount of propulsion and spin you can create is more a byproduct of listening and adopting the dialect than consciously trying to swing.

Swing at 60 ? Who swings eighths at tempo 60? That's ballad tempo.

i think a lot of what makes a swing feel is the accent you put into notes, its not much different than someone having accents in spoken language.. and like others have said, you acquire that mostly through listening and imitating.

Listen to people Oscar Peterson or Wynton Kelly, Red garland Kenny Kirkland and and pay attention to their feel esp. when they play simple ideas. I think part of the problem may be that someone who is new at jazz might not appreciate someone's feel as much other the other aspect of music, like what they are doing harmonically.

When you start to get the swing feel down, you start feeling like there is a rhythmic drive to the music.. its hard to explain, but there is propultion pushing you forward, not in a nervous rushing way .. its relaxed and exciting at the same time.

maybe it will be a good idea to work on feel in general.. one thing i used to do with play along with herbie's comping in "Watermelon Man" and "Cantalope Island". I recorded it and listen to myself and figure out what is it that makes herbie's comping groove the way it does.

btw i agree with jazz+ swinging at slow tempo is very hard for someone who is learning. I think setting the metronome at 70-80 on 2-4 is probably easier. Once that gets easier he can try faster and slower tempo and see if he can still keep the same kind of feel.

Also this kind of raises the question about time.. if you are type of person who is nervous & constantly rushing, important that you work on your time first...swing feel won't make any sense to you unless you can relax and be able to play in time comfortably. The question is, is dario77 just having problem with swing feel, or is he struggling with more fundamental problem of time?

My students learn to swing quite well in the 60 to 100 range, the beginners at 60 and the more intermediate improvisors closer to 100.

At the slower tempos, complete control is stressed, not just the shuffle partitioning that is typical of swing, eighth notes in pairs that are in reality eighth note trips with the first two tied, but slowing it down allows total control over the dynamics of each note to further enhance control of the spin or propulsion of the swing, creating swingless-swing (Tristano school) through internote dynamic accents alone, not a shuffle.

You have to walk before running.

Hi guys

thanks for the tips,

Yesterday I listened "tea for two" performed by louie, and there was some progres, yes definately.

BTW is "mack the knife " good for swing practice?

Mackie might be back in town, but he's one harmonially stagnant sturgeon. Lots of the same chord, over and over, don't make for much tonal improvisational variety unless you're creative with substitute chords.

Dario,

by Louie, you mean Louis, right?

If by Mack the knife, you mean the recording at Newport, it's not the best because it lacks a trumpet solo. In those recordings, you wanna be sure you copy Louis playing trumpet through at least once the changes. It's true macky's not the most interesting harmonically.
What you are doing is training your ear to hear the notes that he plays, not the ones you think he plays.
Meanwhile, you need to connect that ear inside you to the notes on the keyboard. Then you can play what you hear. You do that by singing the notes while playing scales / solos / tunes, etc...

btw, on the tempo thing, I think 1/8th at 100bpm is fast like bjones says. Depending where you stand, I'd pick between 60 and 80. You might get bored a bit, but you will have time to connect the ear and the notes.
If you play at 120+, probably, the fingers will be playing, not the ear.
If you sit down and compose a line through the changes (write them down), then the ear plays completely. You are no longer improvising, but you are taking time to develop your own sound. That's a fun exercise.

Some good Louis tunes to work on:
- The last time
- I gotta right to sing the blues
- West end blues
- SOL Blues
- Struttin'
On those tunes, stick to transcribing Louis, not the other guys. You only want the best, the one we still talk about 90 years later. And did I mention it's about singing along?

I pick them up on emusic for a few cents each mp3. emusic has a solid jazz collection at great prices. (You give them my name we'll each get 50 free downloads.)

Please site some examples of any recordings of a master playing swing eighth notes at tempo 60.

I get it, tempo 60 would be swing in slow motion as an exercise.

I think Dario's issue is with finding the right notes to play. He says he is stuck when he tries to improvise. So to me, it's just lack of ear. His title is somewhat confusing, as Guy said.
Ultimately, maybe you'll be able to improvise at Coltrane's speed, but the amount of problems you run into when you speed things up prevents the beginners from playing what he hears. I think if you play faster than you can, the fingers go into the automatic mode, where they play scales / chord and whatever you practiced from the book. But since you can't play what you hear, it doesn't come out nice.

But it's cool to practice swing on scales and stuff at very challenging tempos. You need technical exercises, too.

BJones suggested an exercise a while back. Singing the chord tones and playing silently (no sound from piano). I think if Dario can find a teacher who can do that himself (so he can correct mistakes), then he'll make quick progress.

before I get flamed, I should say:
I don't imply that a good teacher should be able to do that exercise (silent notes), or that you should test your teacher that way.
Just that in this case, a teacher with a good method for getting your ear up to snuff would be key. Whatever the exercise.

why not just improvise on a single blues scale? or better yet play just one note and focus solely on making it swing?? My teacher used to do that as an exercise you can only play the one note (octaves are allowed)F on F Blues , but it was an exercise to see how expressive you can be with just one note and figuring out what you can do with it.

Hi all I have been listening to armstrong and his contemporarys extensivly, infact all night last night

I have listened to "my monday date", "at the jazz band", already mentioned "tea for two"

I have to admit that it improved my phrases a bit, but it is still the rythm that buggs me, I can feel it when I listen i even move my arms and legs, but when I play I'm just too focused on technique and the lines in the right hand, that I loose touch with rythm.

I have no problem playing rythms such as 3/4 waltz or 4/4 straight or even clave. Infact I can even play clave very well, but swing is beyond my abbilities I'm affraid. Which is strange because I always thought clave is more difficult to master than swing.

btw don't feel bad about not being able to swing... i feel like I am only beggining to really dig into the swing feel in a much deeper way. its hard to describe, but there is something about the way Oscar Peterson, or Louis Armstrong plays, and how the rhythm section plays with them that just feels good.. it makes you want to tap your feet and get up and dance. And everyone swings in a different way.

I think instead of focusing on technical aspect of maybe it helps to just 'enjoy' listening to things just for the feel, and maybe then you can start imitating.. listen to how players may play on top or lay back on the beats, how they accent.. just remember the feeling comes first.

Hey Dario,

Anyway you can post a short recording of you improvising on a ii-V for example? I'm still confused if the problem is improvising or swinging.

On swing 8ths, you got some good advice above.

One thing you can do is find a good pianist who will record something within your playing ability. Then play the piano on top of him, imitating articulation.
Someone mention Garland / Kelly up there. Garland plays C Jam Blues on his 'Groovy' album. It doesn't get much easier than that. Can you play the head like he does?

If not, slow it down and repeat until you can.

If you do complicated things with your hands, then I can see why you loose the sense of rhythm, so do one note like etcera says. And do slow, 60 or 70 bpm.

Ultimately, if you can find a good teacher, he'll find the right challenge spot for you.

Something else that helped me personally with swing is playing from sheet.

I got a book by Jim Snidero with CD and accompaniment track.
The first track is very easy to play. Here's me playing it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/9O_qjWWJJxM

The other tracks are more advanced. What I did is try to imitate the pianist as much as possible (Mike Ledonne). I used transcribe! to slow down as needed, and practiced one phrase at a time.
This helped me with swing, hand balance, reading and technique.
And it's fun to play.
Cost me less than $20 and about 500 hours of my life.

Just so you realize, jazz masters do not play swing eighths at tempo 60 on their recordings, they do something else at 60. It is a good tempo for beginners to practice at though, but it's not really a tempo that swing eights sound good at. Good for practice, not good for a real performance.

btw I am transcribing Gearld Clayton's solo from this clip..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5gcMTD8jZc

This is such a great example.. just listen to how he accents, plays top/behind the beats and how he brings character to different notes.. this is how piano should be played

60 - 100 = Good for practice, which was the mode it was mentioned for use in.

Dario -- that's good you're already down the listening path, and from what I can tell, it seems like you feel you're making progress after doing those listening exercises.

At some point, a jazz teacher would have you start on transcribing. Have you done anything like that yet?

There are differing methods of transcribing, but step 1 would be to find a recording that 1) you love, and 2) is accessible (easier, rather than harder, to transcribe). There are times where I've only transcribed short stretches of tunes, and have gained value from doing it, so don't be overwhelmed with the first attempts. There is a steep learning curve, but you can get through it.

The way I was taught (which may or may not work for you): listen to the recording. Then listen to it over and over. Hundreds of times, if necessary. Start to sing along with the recording.

Over time, start to turn down the volume as you sing. Keep doing this over and over. Eventually, you'll be able to sing it without the recording. Don't shortchange this -- make sure you can really sing it. Along the way, you'll probably memorize it fairly well.

When you feel like it is internalized, then it is time to start taking it to your instrument. When you can play sections, write them down (some teachers consider this step unnecessary, despite the nature of the word "transcribe" -- those teachers may tend to use the phrase "learn the solo" not "transcribe the solo.").

As I said, this was the way I was taught, and it works for me. I have a pile of scraps at home with all kinds of little snippets written down on them (from many years ago). I also can sing some of the things I transcribed pretty well at this point. The memorization does stick!

Guy

ok here are the videos

first one is "autumn leaves" just the few opening bars



then how "back home again" again only first few bars



and third video is "how high the moon" I played first few bars and than statred to improvise, but I started improvising earlier than I normally would because I wated to keep it under 10 megs, but it was 65megs, so I squeezed it later with editor. The result is realy crappy sound and small resolution.



as you can see my improvising is quite poor, I gor lost half way through and it doesnt swing at all.

Dario,

I'm not the teacher here, but I'll tell you what I see and how I would work on fixing it.

- Your time is off. Before you can swing, you have to have good time. Unless you can keep a steady beat, you won't be able to swing.
So invest in a metronome and use it.

- You don't know the changes. You're getting lost. So play the left hand only, one chord per measure. Play whole notes with the Left Hand. Don't play the Right hand.
As boring as it sounds, you need to be very comfortable with the changes if you want to improvise. You can't have pauses.
Do it with a metronome. Start at 60 or 80bpm, whatever is comfortable, then speed this up to 120 - 140.

- You're doing too much with the left hand. Play the melody without the left hand. Do this with the metronome.

I'd be interested in hearing Autumn Leaves again, but no left hand, and metronome set to 80bpm.

Yup I was right about my initial suspicion... you have to deal with your time issue before you can even talk about 'feel'.

For me I would suggest you pick something much easier, like the blues and play the blue scale with right hand. That way you don't have to worry about chord changes as much.

Use the metronome and set it on 2 and 4, play the blues, use whole notes first, make sure you lock in with the metronome, and then play quarter notes, triplets, 8th notes, and switch back and forth.. this ensures that you are hearing and playing your subdivisions correctly.

After you get that down you can start putting more attention on how you accent the notes..once your time feels solid with the metronome it would become much easier to understand feel, and how feel has a lot to do with accenting certain notes and keeping steady time.

Agreed. Steady up the time and the changes and you will be on your way. Don't worry about the "swing"...I heard it already in your playing of the Autumn Leaves head even though the time was off sometimes.

In general play eights legato (except when an eight is followed by a rest, then play it short) Do perhaps give some serious thought and practice on accenting the "ands" in your eighth note phrases. Play quarter notes dettached.

Hi guys thank for the tips

Yes I thought about metronome, but I would like to try first with some software metronome, because my PC is near my piano, so it would be very practical and cheaper.
Do you guys know of some freeware that simulates metronome?

Regarding chord changes, I know only what is written in real book, and I ipmrovise either by ear or I base my improvisation on what I learned through various books or on internet.
Basically it is either II-V-I, or sometimes its I-VII in dorian mode, or simply II-V, sometimes I even go through andalucian cadence in phygrian; I-IIV-IV-V-IV-V, but really I do not know what to do, it is just wandering through the chords, sometimes it comes out good sometimes it comes out awfull.

@knotty, ok "autumn leaves" with right hand only will be on its way shortly

@jazz+ english is not my native language so can you please explain this with some other words: In general play eights legato (except when an eight is followed by a rest, then play it short) Do perhaps give some serious thought and practice on accenting the "ands" in your eighth note phrases. Play quarter notes dettached.
I am failing to understand it

@all, thank you all guys, I appreciate it

Hi Dario, For that online metronome, go here:

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

or go here:

http://webmetronome.com/

thanks for the links to the online metronome, but I do have a slight problem I do not have internet connection at home, only computer, so I was looking for a downloadable metronome that I can use whil I'm offline

also knotty you mentioned that I can't have pauses. Whay is that? Isnt pause(silence) also an element of music?

what did you actually ment by pause? I repeat english is not my native language so maybe something sometimes is not clear to me as it would be to native english speaker

Dario,

I did a google search for the words: free downloadable metronome.

This one is at the top of the list:

http://www.download3000.com/download_3023.html

This one also looks interesting:

http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Multimedia_and_Graphics/Misc__Sound_Tools/Free_E_Metronome.html

By Pause:
I mean you can't stop and think what comes next, or play an extra bar of Gm7 to allow time to prepare for that next Cm7.

It's something that beginners might do. Play fast through a passage, then slow down, or stop through the place you can't quite remember, then speed up again. It makes it difficult to listen to. It's like poor intonation on a violin, it hurts.
And while you improvise, it makes it extremely difficult for everyone to figure out where you are in the changes.

Don't use the rubato argument against the metronome.
When you master time, then you can decide to have fun with it.

As for the metronome, seriously, invest in one.
Maybe this:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Korg-MA30-Digital-Metronome?sku=214022
I use the one that comes with my digital keyboard, but I'm sure this is fine.
or this:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Qwik-Time-QT7-Quartz-Metronome?sku=210251
The wheel probably makes it slightly easier to operate. Others may have a favorite.
--
Edit: That link from Barb looks alright. Use that for now.
--
I have heard people say they used to carry the metronome with them and listen to it all day to improve their sense of time.

@knotty, ok "autumn leaves" with right hand only will be on its way shortly smile
With a tick, please

It's like Jazz+ says. Steady up the time and you'll be on your way.

ok here it is "autumn leaves" right hand only witha a tick.

But I have to tell you, metronome is a real nuisance, I never used it before and it is killing me, it feels like something inside me wants to scream. But I guess it is normal. I'll just have to practice. no pain no gain. Although after initial half an hour of practice I can se no gain whatsoever

dario,

A lot of people struggle with metronome because for some reason many of us are taught playing the right notes is more important than playing the right rhythm.

When you hear someone like Oscar peterson play you can see how they are physically keeping the beat.. some people even tap their feet, but they are always feeling that rhythm inside... and their playing makes you want to tap your feet. I think the important thing to understand is that when the rhythm is there it will feel good and you wouldn't want to play it any other way.

Feet don't have as good a rhythm as the mind. Matter of fact, if you watch Ray Charles or Keith jarrett tap their feet, the majority of it has very little to do with the music, unless they're tapping poly-rhythms or in wave-tempo, a la Tony Williams (the drummer).
Foot tapping also builds up tension in the leg = tension in the body = tension at the keyboard.
I have my students avoid extraneous motion, especially tapping. There's no need to. The fingers are tapping all the rhythm necessary as the piano is a percussion instrument.

Bjones,

I understand what you mean.. i am not really saying you should tap your feet or physically keep beats, but that if you really get into the groove and the rhythm of the music sometimes it feels so good that you can't help but to move your body or even dance. a good groove/feel can be infectious like that. I think the important thing is to really feel good about yourself and the rhythm as you play... you can conceptualize/intellectualize rhythm and feel, but in the end its gut instinct, its a feeling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxI5YNh3gYA&feature=related

btw I am not suggesting that you should take off your shirt like joshua reman either .

unfortunately that's the part that's the most easily overlooked in jazz education. I know so many people in school who transcribe solos to figure out what notes they are playing, but they often neglect the feel part of it completely. They play all the notes right, but its very rare for students to ask "So why is it that my playing just don't feel as good as the recording"?

I am doing this right now, but I am learning to play some solos along with the recording without writing them down .. the point is to play it exactly the way its played, whether its Red Garland, Oscar Peterson or Kenny Kirkland..you start noticing all the nuanace/accents that these guys use in each note, and how each note have distinct character and how expressive it is. Doing this practice has completely change the way i listen to music.

Dario,

Get used to it. The metronome is going to be your best tool to confirm whether you know something or not. Because the metronome doesn't stop.

So get used to it

You're on your way there.
Next step will be to
1. play the chord in the left hand. Again, I recommend one chord per measure. Figure out changes you like, learn them well. You're probably not far from that. Until you know this at 100 bpm or so. Go slow at first if you need to. Figure out the chords ahead of time and write them down if you need to. You want to commit one chord progression to memory, not all possible voicings for one chord. If that makes sense. You take it one step at a time. Do that through the whole change. Don't skip parts to save time. You're learning the form of the tune at the same time.

2. Put the melody and chords together. Again, start slow, then speed up to 100 or 120, whatever feels comfortable.

3. Write down a line. A simple line through the entire changes. Learn it and play it through. Make it mostly 8th notes. And swing it. Now you have nothing else to focus on than swing.

You can try improvising as soon as you want. But if you feel it stinks, it's a good exercise to write down your own lines. Whatever method works for you. Find notes on the keyboard, sing them, whatever. As long as it sounds good to you.

If you do the ear training exercise of learning solos, your ear will pick up and you will be able to more easily play the sounds you hear.

If you have problems writing lines, or finding notes you like, I can give you one to get you started. Ultimately, you want it to be your sound.

Most jazz piano greats do tap on 1 2 3 4 or just on beats 1 and 3. The challenge would be to find those who don't tap. I am curious to see a video of a famous jazz pianist tapping on 2 and 4 in concert because I have never seen that.

A few of of the jazz masters who tap:

Wynton Kelly, the most swinging ever and Paul Chambers are both tapping here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBwrv6RtvtA

Art Tatum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JycfQd9nk9M&feature=related

Bud Powell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDfdIf7Yi8M

Bill Evans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQUUuglyFjI&feature=related

Oscar Peterson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wacjJiKqf...&playnext=1

Herbie Hancock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39-P2vb1OIE

McCoy Tyner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnijJacikbE

Kenny Barron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZpuBX3mZQ&feature=related

Horace Silver
Gene Harris
Monty Alexander
Joe Sample
The entire front row of the Duke Ellington Orchestra

Note: Don't tap the front of your foot because it uses the smaller muscles. Do tap your left heel, but keep your foot back enough so your heel does not impact the floor with force, otherwise it can be tiring. Lightly tapping the heel uses the largest muscles in your body, the thigh muscles. I can tap my heel gently all day without tiring. It's easier than walking.

You must have one well developed shin!

This is interesting because from my experience, when watching combos, individual musicians within the group are either tapping at different rates or with each other but all on a slightly different part of the beat, some dead on it, some behind, some ahead, and some that vaccillate between all four!

Of note is that Tristano's feet never shifted once he sat at the piano. Lennie and his students were/are from the train of thought that the hands themselves provide enough tapping for the whole body.

I don't use my shin, I use my thigh muscle like a drummer playing a hi-hat pedal.

When I saw Ellington's band their foots were tapping lock step.

Billy Taylor, Duke Ellington and Willie the Lion together all tapping 4/4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCug5HG9jLg

that reminds me when i saw Geri Allen play her feet were tapping pretty hard

When I saw the first post, my initial response (which finally came out later) is that it's an issue of "time".

Swing is an exhibition of full control of time and even technique. It is not easy to master and lord knows I spent a good amount of time explaining it in the Jazz thread in the Adult Beginner's forum (right Barb?). I realized after such long explanations that it isn't all that easy to explain in text. But when shown in person, the listener (student) becomes aware of what to exactly to pay attention to.

It's not even as simple as saying that it's the distribution of time in eighth note pairs. My teacher is a modern jazz master, and although he can duplicate anybody's swing, most of the drive in his eighth notes come from the length of the the ending eighth note and the rest is actually more accent based. Something you'll find in Brad Mehldau for example.

Obviously swing imparts a drive to the music and the approaches to how exactly to accomplish that varies by individual, so there's no "one way" to do this.

But it is safe to say that a big part of it is accents on the "and" as has been said, and the rest is just precisely sizing the length of the notes to a level of unevenness that gives you the feel you want.

Jazz+ and I have had long discussions about Wynton Kelly and his changing "swing ratios" from almost straight eighths (1:1) to highly swung 2:1 ratios of eighths. Obviously Wynton switches a lot. I know this kind of discussion makes it sound so clinical because like I said, unless you know what to listen to, you may not be able to tell how to duplicate the sound.

As much discussion as I've consumed on this topic in the past, I would say that nothing beats doing it in person with a teacher or someone who knows how to swing, preferrably someone with a style you want to duplicate.

The rest of it is really technique building since it takes a lot of technical skill to maintain the precision in landing the notes exactly where you want it at a particular moment. For me, at the earlier learning stages, the inconsistenty in "time" made the swing non-authentic sounding. For this reason, beginners in piano will naturally have a more difficult time swinging, so a little patience is required and maybe lots of scale practice.

Something I've also tried to increase my understanding of swing techniques was to listen to the masters swing in slow motion; meaning I used software to slow the music down. You really learn a lot from this. I was amazed for example at how hard Keith Jarrett swung at fast tempos.

They must have had both a conductor and a choreographer.

Anatomically, the thigh muscles' function is to extend the lower lower leg, in a jackknife motion. Flexion of the thigh muscles results in this motion:

http://www.3rdchancefitness.com/assets/images/legs/Leg-Extensions-1.gif

Also, motions that mimic this:

http://www.chinese-holistic-health-exercises.com/images/Thighstrengthener.jpg

Like squats:

http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//0000/800/70/5/20875.jpg

and other related exercises.

Toe raises, which flex the calf, not the thigh muscles, raise the heel off of the ground.:

http://www.weight-lifting-workout-routines.com/seated-machine-calf-raise.jpg

Shin exercises would work the fron of the legs by lifing the toes up with those muscles:

What you'd actually be using in lifting your entire foot off of the ground would not be the thigh muscles, but the hip muscles:

http://www.edinformatics.com/health_fitness/hipflexion1.jpg

Bodybuilding 101

Maybe she was having a bad night and was trying to drown out what she was playing?

who knows, but she was obviously annoyed at all the flash photography.. it was quite obnoxious and somebody actually had to tell this person to stop taking pictures.

I don't think tapping and other physical movement aren't a problem as long as you are "feeling" the time.. its only a problem when you are tapping in order to feel the time.. for people who are having trouble feeling time, the problem usually happens because they are not relaxed, or not listening to the rest of the band (if you are playing with the group)

Hi I've been practicing a bit, I think there is a slight progress, but I do still however have a problem with time

If you detest metronomes, why not get a drum loop (or if you're rich, a drum machine or synth) that plays swing. I'm sure it's possible to find something on the internet if you know where to look. Maybe even a loop that marks 4 bars or 8 bars.

Ballads need not "swing".
Your Nardis is slipping away from the beat, it needs to be played more strictly in the time..

Ok, a year passed, lets see if there was any progess

Autumn Leaves take 1 (I forgot to lift mute pedal)



Autumn Leaves take 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJv6cUaQMA0

maybe these vids will help..not exactly swing,but it will help...I love swing...might do a specifiec vid on it...cheers....comments welcome...