I do not know what to do .I have been practicing, practicing. I have read books and books. I know theory in detail. But I just cannot play it. I can play the sheet music standards(from realbook format) perfectly, but when I have to improvise I am stuck. Are threre any tips anything. Please do not get me wrong I am not trying to find the easy way, I practiced and practiced, I promise, But it just isnt coming. Please help me.

I even tried with some fairly easy chord progressions like am7 and dm7, and with some more complex like bB7, bE9, adim, D7 etc, but its not in progression, its in rythm and phrases, I just cant make these jazzy phrases

I feel your pain!

I bought the Tim Richards Exploring Jazz Piano book - volume I. The CD is great and at least I have that to try to copy his articulation.

I have not yet grown into my screen name.

Dario,

if you want to swing, flowing and phrasing, the best thing is to do this:
Buy yourself a few mp3 of Louis Armstrong with his hot seven. Stuff from the 20s. You really can't go wrong with that stuff.

Then learn to sing these solos along with the record. Sing in pitch as much as you can. If you have software to slow it down, go for it. You don't have to sing good, but you do have to sing in pitch. That's the key to training your ear. Even if your voice spans one octave, you shift octaves, that's ok.

Maybe you think you can sing, but chances are, you can't, so as excruciating as that might sound, record yourself singing over the record, and check that you got it correctly.

If you can actually sing a solo, playing it is really not that hard. It's all about ear training.

Do 1/6 a dozen Louis.

When you're done with Louis, pick up some Lester Young from the 30s. Count Basie 1930s basically. Do the same exercise with Lester Young.

You will be blown away by how simple, but extremely effective Lester or Louis were. Forget all those books with scales and stuff. They told a story in each and every single line.

The problem with books is that they really don't help all that much. They're good for understanding but they can't help you play.

So the other thing you do, you pick an easy tune, with easy progression like you mention. Ellington for example. Then you compose a solo. You write it on paper, using mostly 8th notes, and repeating.
Do one phrase, then answer by the phrase that comes after. Go over it as much as you want, until you like the phrase. Your phrase.

I have examples of that in my blog, if you care to look. I record while playing rather than singing, but I do sing along everything. The keyboard helps me identify each pitch.

Also, if you care to record your solos and post them here, some folks might be able to provide good feedback. You're probably not as bad as you say you are.

take care

I'm a rank amateur, currently sticking solely to classical music at the moment. But many years ago could do a little bit with a basic blues progression. 3 simple repeating chords. My advice is to just let yourself go. Boogie Woogie's a great way to get started. Just find a repeating pattern with the left hand and let your right hand roam. You almost can't make a mistake. Gradually you'll hear what sounds good, develop some basic riffs and you're off to the races.

Hope that helps a little...

The faster you play, the harder it is to swing.

Try slower tempos. 112 is a good swing tempo. It gives you room to back off the "swing" half of the eighth notes.

Technically, yes, because it's more difficult to control each note's duration and placement.
If you listen to my Chopin improv example in my sig line, you'll hear what a strong swing at approx. 360 bpm. sounds like.
Each pair of notes isn't only shuffled, but the dynamic partitioning of the phrasing contour is pure be-bop.

Yes, but how does that help the poor OP learn how to swing?

If your bass line is in quarter notes, the tempo is ~180.

It is very hip, though.

r.h. eights are going by at roughly 12 per second = 16ths at 180, or standard eight note improv at approx. 360.
As most standard be-bop books relegate the metronomic tempo marking to reflect eight note improv, for example, Donna Lee = 240, the relative metronomic marking for it is eights at 360.
At tempos faster than that, it's increasingly difficult to impart that type of extremem independent dynamic spin and metric shuffle on each phrase.

Someone said it's difficult to swing at tempos exceeding 112. My sound file is a good example of how a ful swing sounds at high speed. Most are not familiar with that type of piano sound, a full swing usually the realm of horn players alone at those tempi.

accent the and of the beat for some auto swing

Honestly, I am confused by the question (and by the title of this thread)...what is it you are actually struggling with? There are some answers here that address the mechanics of swinging (which would be more clear to say "playing swing eighth notes"), but your actual question seems to be about struggling with improvising.

If you're struggling with all of that, no problem. A very common problem for novice jazz players. Practicing and reading books will only take you so far.

I always recommend going back to the internalization issue. How much time do you spend actually listening to jazz? Is it only a small part of your overall listening? If it is the majority of your listening, how much time do you actually spend with focused listening (not "listening" with music in the background of whatever task you're doing).

The reason why is that internalization happens with focused listening. I don't want to portray myself as any kind of an expert, but I find that I can't listen to music in the background. It usually draws too much of my attention.

In my opinion, being a musician and playing music, jazz included, is all about internalization. My Jr. High School band director kept talking to us about "singing it in your head" (but I find that for me it is closer to my gut than my head).

I you want to learn and play jazz, and skip the internalization step, I'm afraid I can't help.

There's a jazz saxophonist, Dave Liebman, who makes the point that you don't need to listen to piles of different albums. You really only need one. But it has to be the right one (for you). For me, it has been a lot of fun figuring out which ones are the right ones (and I don't listen to a whole of ones that are the wrong ones).

Guy

I said that quarter note = 112 is a good swing tempo. I didn't say that you couldn't swing faster than that, I wanted to suggest to someone who is working on swing tecnique that practicing a tune at 112 would be a good way to start.

As Guy said, you need to listen in order to learn the vocabulary. To become comfortable improvising you should start small. You say you are comfortable playing the lead sheets, so start with small changes to the melody. At first only change the rhythm, moving some notes ahead in time, others back, and perhaps subdividing longer notes into a couple of repeated notes. When you are comfortable with this try approaching some melody notes from a half or whole step above or below. Not playing is as important as playing, so try not playing some of the melody notes at all. If you've got too much space now try filling some of it in with scale or arpeggio ideas. By the time you've done all of this you're improvising and it's just a matter of listening, studying, and experimenting to become more proficient and experienced. If you've caught the bug you'll be doing this last step for the rest of your life.

112 is far too fast to start at. 60 is a much better starting point.

Of course, swing, swingless swing (no shuffle, just dynamic accents), and the amount of propulsion and spin you can create is more a byproduct of listening and adopting the dialect than consciously trying to swing.

Swing at 60 ? Who swings eighths at tempo 60? That's ballad tempo.

i think a lot of what makes a swing feel is the accent you put into notes, its not much different than someone having accents in spoken language.. and like others have said, you acquire that mostly through listening and imitating.

Listen to people Oscar Peterson or Wynton Kelly, Red garland Kenny Kirkland and and pay attention to their feel esp. when they play simple ideas. I think part of the problem may be that someone who is new at jazz might not appreciate someone's feel as much other the other aspect of music, like what they are doing harmonically.

When you start to get the swing feel down, you start feeling like there is a rhythmic drive to the music.. its hard to explain, but there is propultion pushing you forward, not in a nervous rushing way .. its relaxed and exciting at the same time.

maybe it will be a good idea to work on feel in general.. one thing i used to do with play along with herbie's comping in "Watermelon Man" and "Cantalope Island". I recorded it and listen to myself and figure out what is it that makes herbie's comping groove the way it does.

btw i agree with jazz+ swinging at slow tempo is very hard for someone who is learning. I think setting the metronome at 70-80 on 2-4 is probably easier. Once that gets easier he can try faster and slower tempo and see if he can still keep the same kind of feel.

Also this kind of raises the question about time.. if you are type of person who is nervous & constantly rushing, important that you work on your time first...swing feel won't make any sense to you unless you can relax and be able to play in time comfortably. The question is, is dario77 just having problem with swing feel, or is he struggling with more fundamental problem of time?

My students learn to swing quite well in the 60 to 100 range, the beginners at 60 and the more intermediate improvisors closer to 100.

At the slower tempos, complete control is stressed, not just the shuffle partitioning that is typical of swing, eighth notes in pairs that are in reality eighth note trips with the first two tied, but slowing it down allows total control over the dynamics of each note to further enhance control of the spin or propulsion of the swing, creating swingless-swing (Tristano school) through internote dynamic accents alone, not a shuffle.

You have to walk before running.

Hi guys

thanks for the tips,

Yesterday I listened "tea for two" performed by louie, and there was some progres, yes definately.

BTW is "mack the knife " good for swing practice?

Mackie might be back in town, but he's one harmonially stagnant sturgeon. Lots of the same chord, over and over, don't make for much tonal improvisational variety unless you're creative with substitute chords.

Dario,

by Louie, you mean Louis, right?

If by Mack the knife, you mean the recording at Newport, it's not the best because it lacks a trumpet solo. In those recordings, you wanna be sure you copy Louis playing trumpet through at least once the changes. It's true macky's not the most interesting harmonically.
What you are doing is training your ear to hear the notes that he plays, not the ones you think he plays.
Meanwhile, you need to connect that ear inside you to the notes on the keyboard. Then you can play what you hear. You do that by singing the notes while playing scales / solos / tunes, etc...

btw, on the tempo thing, I think 1/8th at 100bpm is fast like bjones says. Depending where you stand, I'd pick between 60 and 80. You might get bored a bit, but you will have time to connect the ear and the notes.
If you play at 120+, probably, the fingers will be playing, not the ear.
If you sit down and compose a line through the changes (write them down), then the ear plays completely. You are no longer improvising, but you are taking time to develop your own sound. That's a fun exercise.

Some good Louis tunes to work on:
- The last time
- I gotta right to sing the blues
- West end blues
- SOL Blues
- Struttin'
On those tunes, stick to transcribing Louis, not the other guys. You only want the best, the one we still talk about 90 years later. And did I mention it's about singing along?

I pick them up on emusic for a few cents each mp3. emusic has a solid jazz collection at great prices. (You give them my name we'll each get 50 free downloads.)

Please site some examples of any recordings of a master playing swing eighth notes at tempo 60.

I get it, tempo 60 would be swing in slow motion as an exercise.

I think Dario's issue is with finding the right notes to play. He says he is stuck when he tries to improvise. So to me, it's just lack of ear. His title is somewhat confusing, as Guy said.
Ultimately, maybe you'll be able to improvise at Coltrane's speed, but the amount of problems you run into when you speed things up prevents the beginners from playing what he hears. I think if you play faster than you can, the fingers go into the automatic mode, where they play scales / chord and whatever you practiced from the book. But since you can't play what you hear, it doesn't come out nice.

But it's cool to practice swing on scales and stuff at very challenging tempos. You need technical exercises, too.

BJones suggested an exercise a while back. Singing the chord tones and playing silently (no sound from piano). I think if Dario can find a teacher who can do that himself (so he can correct mistakes), then he'll make quick progress.

before I get flamed, I should say:
I don't imply that a good teacher should be able to do that exercise (silent notes), or that you should test your teacher that way.
Just that in this case, a teacher with a good method for getting your ear up to snuff would be key. Whatever the exercise.

why not just improvise on a single blues scale? or better yet play just one note and focus solely on making it swing?? My teacher used to do that as an exercise you can only play the one note (octaves are allowed)F on F Blues , but it was an exercise to see how expressive you can be with just one note and figuring out what you can do with it.

Hi all I have been listening to armstrong and his contemporarys extensivly, infact all night last night

I have listened to "my monday date", "at the jazz band", already mentioned "tea for two"

I have to admit that it improved my phrases a bit, but it is still the rythm that buggs me, I can feel it when I listen i even move my arms and legs, but when I play I'm just too focused on technique and the lines in the right hand, that I loose touch with rythm.

I have no problem playing rythms such as 3/4 waltz or 4/4 straight or even clave. Infact I can even play clave very well, but swing is beyond my abbilities I'm affraid. Which is strange because I always thought clave is more difficult to master than swing.

btw don't feel bad about not being able to swing... i feel like I am only beggining to really dig into the swing feel in a much deeper way. its hard to describe, but there is something about the way Oscar Peterson, or Louis Armstrong plays, and how the rhythm section plays with them that just feels good.. it makes you want to tap your feet and get up and dance. And everyone swings in a different way.

I think instead of focusing on technical aspect of maybe it helps to just 'enjoy' listening to things just for the feel, and maybe then you can start imitating.. listen to how players may play on top or lay back on the beats, how they accent.. just remember the feeling comes first.

Hey Dario,

Anyway you can post a short recording of you improvising on a ii-V for example? I'm still confused if the problem is improvising or swinging.

On swing 8ths, you got some good advice above.

One thing you can do is find a good pianist who will record something within your playing ability. Then play the piano on top of him, imitating articulation.
Someone mention Garland / Kelly up there. Garland plays C Jam Blues on his 'Groovy' album. It doesn't get much easier than that. Can you play the head like he does?

If not, slow it down and repeat until you can.

If you do complicated things with your hands, then I can see why you loose the sense of rhythm, so do one note like etcera says. And do slow, 60 or 70 bpm.

Ultimately, if you can find a good teacher, he'll find the right challenge spot for you.