"Also could you wait until next week to dump phantom of the opera in the garbage? It's almost full from all the stuff I wrote last week and all the stage materials and assorted knick knacks, not to mention Michael Crawford and all those other people will take up a lot of room and it taxes the compactor. The last time we threw out a broadway musical we had to spend weeks cleaning all the cat hair out of the machinery."

I'm afraid I put that out years ago, and it wasn't in the recycling bag; I felt that Lord Lloyd-Webber has done quite enough re-cycling of other people's material over the years.

Can we throw away Bolero and Melody in F too? They've been mouldering around for ages.

Also Ives. I've only heard one of his pieces but since we're being pretentious twits lets just toss the whole thing out.

Edit : I know, Burl or Charles? Better do both to make sure. I mean, ok somebody maybe likes it, but who cares? Our tastes are supreme and we will govern what is good, and what is crap, for all eternity.

If it wasn't for Melody in F, Gershwin might not have taken an interest in music. I'll keep that one.

Maybe it's fair enough to style oneself a pretentious twit in seeking to comment on the value of music when one's experience of it is obviously so limited. Some others who post here have opinions that are more informed. Such others also tend to give an indication of why they think this, that or the other is good, bad or indifferent rather than just stating that "It's a matter of opinion" or "I like it, so there!"

To go back to the the original purpose of this thread, I think the "Classical world of Music" for want of a better term has passed its judgement on Joplin pretty decisively. Opera houses are not falling over themselves to stage Treemonisha and concert pianists aren't noticeably keen to programme his works in their recitals or even give them as encores. Quite who plays them nowadays I've no idea. There was certainly interest in his music in the early 1970 mainly as a result of the movie "The Sting" but I haven't heard any of his music (apart from the rather boring experience of playing the records of Treemonisha tonight) for years.

There seems to be a large undercurrent of implying that piano is aristocratic, which was my previous topic. I agree with the notion that classical just refers to a period in the history of piano literature, of which ragtime did not belong to.

Hodges' point, which I think got lost here, was what made the difference is that ragtime was created for public consumption, which made it popular, rather than classical.

weren't mozarts opera's also created for public consumption?

In short, the published score in ragtime sheet music is not the same thing as the published score of a work by Chopin or Liszt. Chopin’s sheet music was not published in order to sell copies to the masses. It was designed to represent and preserve the genius of the composer for the benefit of other professional pianists, composers, and serious music students. The cost of publication was frequently underwritten by wealthy aristocratic patrons. Market forces did not determine or constrain classical musical publication.

In stark contrast, ragtime compositions, like all other popular music, were published with the express goal of making money. The composer’s only intention was to sell copies of his piece, thus, he was perfectly willing to see a professional arranger transform his manuscript — or, in most cases, transcribe his live performance — into a manageable and saleable format that would adhere to the strict conventions of popular music publishing.

There have been many good arguments for and against classifying Joplin's music as classical but one thing I haven't yet seen openly addressed is the likely possibility that racism kept his music from being recognized as "legitimate". Joplin wrote during a time when racial bigotry was rampant.

Jeff Clef wrote "Joplin's works did not make it to the conservatories until the 1970's and thereafter regain the attention of a wider public," no doubt because of the popularity of the film "The Sting".

It is only in the year 2009 that we in the USA are finally crawling out of the shadow of racism.

There seems to be a large undercurrent of implying that piano is aristocratic

One has only to watch Chico Marx play the piano in one of the Marx Brother's films to scientifically dispel that idea!

There have been many good arguments for and against classifying Joplin's music as classical but one thing I haven't yet seen openly addressed is the likely possibility that racism kept his music from being recognized as "legitimate". Joplin wrote during a time when racial bigotry was rampant.

Jeff Clef wrote "Joplin's works did not make it to the conservatories until the 1970's and thereafter regain the attention of a wider public," no doubt because of the popularity of the film "The Sting".

It is only in the year 2009 that we in the USA are finally crawling out of the shadow of racism.

When you have composers fostered by an educated and wealthy elite the chances are they will produce superior work.
The proof is in the pudding re the European great classical composers .

Joplins social milieu was not inspirational.
Its a last ditch argument to play the ethnic and poverty card as if this added some cachet to his music. This type of liberal thought impoverishes everybody.

The USA has had a good century of superior living standards yet no real classical composers have emerged on a par with the European Greats.
I suspect this is because of the false egalitarianism widespread in that society.

Trying to elevate Joplin to the halls of classicism is merely the whimper of a failed liberal experiment.

When you have composers fostered by an educated and wealthy elite the chances are they will produce superior work.
The proof is in the pudding re the European great classical composers .

Joplins social milieu was not inspirational.
Its a last ditch argument to play the ethnic and poverty card as if this added some cachet to his music. This type of liberal thought impoverishes everybody.

The USA has had a good century of superior living standards yet no real classical composers have emerged on a par with the European Greats.
I suspect this is because of the false egalitarianism widespread in that society.

Trying to elevate Joplin to the halls of classicism is merely the whimper of a failed liberal experiment.

Oh, such a good point!!!

Heard someone say that if you just play the white keys on a piano, it would just not sound as good without playing the black keys too! So one needs to play "the black and white keys" and then we have real harmony!

Sometimes I think classical players are racist!

Just my take!

You are apparently blissfully unaware of the virulent racism that was rampant during Scott Joplin's time.

Now why would you judge me like that? Why are you telling me what I know and what I don't know?

I'm blonde! and am always having to justify my intelligence! (Now where can I get myself some "going brunette" hair dye!!! Then maybe I won't be stereotyped!)

EDIT: changed i to I

If you don't want your flippant comments about a serious topic to be judged, then you shouldn't post them.

You leave me speechless!!!

I'll just leave you with this quote!

"Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive anyway!"

Yes apparently I was wrong in taking the life and work of an important American composer seriously. How humiliating.

Hope you weren't kidding in your last post.

I strangely believe we are arguing for the same cause. But I can't quite convince you of that. Because you obviously already know what I know and what I don`t know!

You are probably a mind reader too! Guess what I`m thinking now!!!!

Hrodulf,
You have agreed that Joplins music is not classical.

Most educated musicians regard classical music as the most superior art form.

I would hope this thread would categorize Joplin and it believe it has:

Scott Joplin ; non-classical minor composer {USA}.Enjoyed brief popularity in the 1970s due to The Sting[movie] but interest currently relegated to a small coterie of Ragtime piano aficionados. Joplin lovers are anxious to have their hero canonized in the halls of classical music fame.This task is proving very difficult since no major opera house or professional classical piano player seem to show much interest in Joplins music

Most educated musicians regard classical music as the most superior art form.