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#1188463 - 04/27/09 03:54 PM Recital and copyrights question
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Sorry guys, I don't mean to be a wet blanket here, but I just have to ask how you deal with the copyright issues concerning performances of the pieces in the recitals.

Most of us are aware of the fact that compositions can be in copyright or in the public domain. Currently a composition normally enters the public domain 70 years after the composer's death, but this may be increased and in some countries it is more (e.g. 100 years in Mexico).

Judging from previous recitals, there are quite a few copyrighted compositions in the recital, but unfortunately, this is not the only problem. You see, and this irks me to no end, even if the composition in itself may be in the public domain, the actual sheet music you learned it from is NOT in the public domain. The publisher of that sheet music has the rights to that. Check the copyright notice in the book and you will see that you are not allowed to record or perform (in public) that piece, even if it is a Bach piece. Insane!

I'm asking this because I'm in the ideas gathering stage for a web site, which would benefit a lot from something similar to your recitals. The recent The Pirate Bay (TBP) trial showed that you are not safe simply because you are not hosting the files themselves. It is enough to point to where they are.

For the record, I do agree in principle with TPB verdict, but at the same time I believe the copyright laws are too prohibitive, complicated and nationalistic (Global web site + national agencies[e.g. ASCAP] = impossible).

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#1188593 - 04/27/09 07:32 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Rented]
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2501
Loc: Maine
From what i've seen on youtube the folks getting in the most trouble (and that is just getting the music stripped from their video) are people using well known recorded songs in their movies. (I had "Friend of the Devil" by the Dead stripped off of one of my ski movies). If they are going to start going after every amateur out there playing other folks' songs they have their work cut out for them. IMO, we on this forum are very safe.
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#1188613 - 04/27/09 07:56 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Rented]
jazzyprof Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 2598
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Originally Posted By: Rented
You see, and this irks me to no end, even if the composition in itself may be in the public domain, the actual sheet music you learned it from is NOT in the public domain. The publisher of that sheet music has the rights to that. Check the copyright notice in the book and you will see that you are not allowed to record or perform (in public) that piece, even if it is a Bach piece. Insane!

I don't get it...how are they ever going to prove that my particular rendition/recording of Bach's D Major Prelude was learnt from a certain copyrighted edition of the WTC?
_________________________
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP

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#1188647 - 04/27/09 08:42 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: jazzyprof]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Ah well, on youtube it was mostly using recordings in videos, and the teachers teaching popular songs that got "busted". Youtube has negotiated, and is negotiating, with the various copyright holder associations (e.g. ASCAP). The UK is pretty much settled. That is, it IS legal for a UK viewer or uploader to use recorded music from a variety of record labels and pretty much any composition under copyright in the UK and EU. Good for them smile

But the issue is not so much going after the performer but instead going after the web site owners. This is their new tactic as it is, as you rightly point out, quite a daunting task to go after each performer.

Regarding the sheet music and proving copyright infringement, I have no idea how they would go about it. In some cases it may be obvious (e.g. unique arrangements and/or transcriptions), in others not so obvious. In either case, defending yourself could ruin you.

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#1188649 - 04/27/09 08:47 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: jazzyprof]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 401
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: jazzyprof
Originally Posted By: Rented
You see, and this irks me to no end, even if the composition in itself may be in the public domain, the actual sheet music you learned it from is NOT in the public domain. The publisher of that sheet music has the rights to that. Check the copyright notice in the book and you will see that you are not allowed to record or perform (in public) that piece, even if it is a Bach piece. Insane!

I don't get it...how are they ever going to prove that my particular rendition/recording of Bach's D Major Prelude was learnt from a certain copyrighted edition of the WTC?


You can't...unless you embed a wrong note in as your watermark. cool

This is what sheet-music sites and books do. The part that is copyrighted is the little additions, the preface and linear notes, fingerings. Simplified or altered versions can be copyrighted. I don't feel robbed when I paid 10 Euro for the my unused Hannon book. I'm paying for them to print it for me.


"PD songs may be used any way you like--even for profit-making--without paying any royalties. No permission is needed for anyone to use any PD version of a song or musical work.
You can even create and copyright your own arrangement of any PD song, but any PD version absolutely remains in the public domain for anyone to use"
http://www.pdinfo.com/index.php

Only the compositions of recent composers are copyrighted but in the grand scheme of thing I don't think the composers will be motivated enough to get the gray suits in. All they'd have to do is send an email if they felt so strongly about it. I'm saying this because I worked for a law firm. Even asking the question to a lawyer over the phone would cost you more than what you thought you lost.

I don't think there is a official God or Saint of Copyright so I wouldn't worry about it to much. But publishers are happy that most people treat it that way.

ps

There is no way that The Pirate Bay case can be compared to the Piano Recitals, here or on youtube. That is like comparing jay-walking with war-crimes.

ps

Didn't the people who made that teenage film "Twilight" started claiming all renditions of "clair de lune" that were on youtube? I remember a thread about it. The swines!
_________________________
"4 Chords = Major label record deal"
Ray LaMontagne
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#1188655 - 04/27/09 09:00 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Devane]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Why is it any different from a cover band playing songs on the weekend at Georges Pub? Or playing at any given recital?





Edited by kennychaffin (04/27/09 09:07 PM)
_________________________
Kenny A. Chaffin
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#1188658 - 04/27/09 09:01 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Rented]
Devane Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 401
Loc: Ireland
Originally Posted By: Rented
Ah well, on youtube it was mostly using recordings in videos, and the teachers teaching popular songs that got "busted".


If you're referring to the people that were teaching you current pop songs and more importantly selling DVD's of these lessons!. Well that's a serious offense. How could they not know that they weren't stealing.

If you just playing a pop song on youtube what's the harm? Charging money for monkey-see monkey-do tuition.....a crime. lol.

Bedtime.
_________________________
"4 Chords = Major label record deal"
Ray LaMontagne
https://app.box.com/shared/k1cugq3bog

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#1188667 - 04/27/09 09:09 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: kennychaffin]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Georges Pub has a performance license from ASCAP and/or BMI. Or they will real quick when ASCAP or BMI finds them laugh The pub likely occasionally turns in a list of tunes/songs that are played. So it *is* usually the venue and not the performers that pays ASCAP or BMI.

ASCAP/BMI can be kind of hit-or-miss about knowing where music is being played, but they actually enforced it with a folk dance venue in Albuquerque, even though many of the cd's that were being used were not licensed thru either organization. The rent for everyone who used the building went up in order to pay ASCAP/BMI.

As far as I know, if a pub plans on being around awhile and offering music, they buy the license. Just a cost of doing business.

We're probably pretty small potatoes for anyone to worry about. Whether or not they *can* do something, legally, to prevent our recitals I don't actually know.

Cathy
_________________________

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#1188675 - 04/27/09 09:21 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Devane]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Originally Posted By: Devane
There is no way that The Pirate Bay case can be compared to the Piano Recitals, here or on youtube. That is like comparing jay-walking with war-crimes.


I think that's a slight exaggeration smile I'm not saying it's the same thing, but of course they are comparable. Intent is not the same, volume is not the same, but...

Desperate times call for desperate measures. And the media companies are desperate. Anything goes. I just mentioned TPB to show that I am not against copyright law, just the way (I think) its been abused. So let's not get stuck on TPB smile

Originally Posted By: Devane
Didn't the people who made that teenage film "Twilight" started claiming all renditions of "clair de lune" that were on youtube? I remember a thread about it. The swines!


Oh, there are so many cases of this it is not even funny. There's a very old song/melody that's been sung and played on guitar here in Spain for ages, called Romance. Somehow, a dude named Yepes claimed it for himself and got a copyright on it. Now it is technically illegal to perform it in public (unless you pay Yepes of course). Or what about Happy Birthday, which was more or less "stolen" from the PD? I'm sure you heard about the Girl Scouts getting sued for singing that and other songs.

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#1188677 - 04/27/09 09:24 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: jotur]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20761
Loc: Oakland
Keep in mind that copyright applies to sheet music (and recordings) and is a separate issue from performing rights (which also applies to recordings). Copyright applies to copying music, both sheet and recorded. Performing rights usually only applies to performances for commercial purposes.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1188679 - 04/27/09 09:27 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Rented]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Originally Posted By: jotur
but they actually enforced it with a folk dance venue in Albuquerque


Here in Spain the "copyright police" crashed a wedding. Apparently, weddings are not considered private, but public events crazy

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#1188680 - 04/27/09 09:30 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: BDB]
Rented Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Spain
Originally Posted By: BDB
Performing rights usually only applies to performances for commercial purposes.


If that is so, then how come ASCAP (I think it was) was able to sue the Girl Scouts for singing Happy Birthday around the camp fire? After the public outcry they settled on a symbolic license fee, but still.

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#1188706 - 04/27/09 10:15 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Rented]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5282
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Here's a link to the 1996 articles on the Girl Scouts/ASCAP stuff:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/communications/ASCAP.html

As ASCAP said there, their primary concerns were with the camps that bring in bands, have performers that are being paid. I like it that one spokesperson said "What can I say? We bought a mailing list [of camps]. We should have researched it." Ayup smile They want restaurants that have their wait staff sing Happy Birthday to pay ASCAP. But again, it's the venue, which is paying or hosting the performance (in the sense that the musicians are separate from the audience) that ASCAP is primarily interested in. I don't think ASCAP gives a hoot or a hollar about - piano parties in your home. Not likely about piano recitals, whether live or on-line. I dunno. I suppose they could threaten us :\ or Frank. But they haven't yet. I don't think. I don't know - I'm not privvy to Frank's PW business smile

Cathy
_________________________

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#1188720 - 04/27/09 10:34 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: jotur]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17698
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Most of the videos I see being removed from YouTube are people putting up bootleg copies of the artists' original works, e.g., music videos or mp3s ripped from albums. The gazillions of amateur covers of songs, while technically in violation of copyright, are left alone, as common sense would attest. If I saw large numbers of those getting yanked, I'd start to get a little worried about our recital, but until then I'm not too worked up.

However... I actually emailed David Nevue before I posted my recordings of his pieces on YouTube just to make sure he wouldn't mind. I assured him I would post a link to his website so that viewers could go there to order the music if they wanted. He assured me that he was happy to see his music getting out there and didn't mind YouTube or other recordings as long as the performer appropriately gives him credit.
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1188810 - 04/28/09 04:16 AM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Monica K.]
Ejay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/24/09
Posts: 216
Loc: U.K.
Here in the UK, our church has to hold a Performing Rights License as well as both a copyright license for words on the data projector and another copyright license for music.

Having to pay ,to be able to play hymns in church, is just ridiculous if you ask me !!! ( I do agree with paying for copying words and music , just not the actual singing)

I can see why artists get annoyed if professional recordings of their songs are added to videos and mass marketed, but an amateur pianist showing their friends their progress and enjoyment of songs is not the same as a paid , public performance imo.
_________________________
Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.
Maya Angelou


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#1189194 - 04/28/09 03:38 PM Re: Recital and copyrights question [Re: Ejay]
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
We must be very careful! My piano teacher was arrested yesterday because she borrowed me the Chopin Etudes!

EDITED: God, i feel so guilty! Why did i had the wish to play those etudes?


Edited by GreenRain (04/28/09 03:39 PM)

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