I began learning this piece awhile ago, but I'm still having trouble with the beginning. I can play the entire first page and the first bit of the second with my right and left hands separate but not together.

And I can play from where the key signature changes and it's "poco piu animato" to the part where it repeats the beginning before coming to a close with both hands playing. It's probably because I don't have that much experience, and the way those notes are fit together sorta throws me.

Does anyone who's played this piece in its entirety have tips for me?
I'm nearing on 2 years of piano exp., and I'm learning this piece without my teacher.

I think you have simple chosen a piece that is above your level. You may benefit more from esaier pieces. There are a lot of lovely music that demand less technical skill. Despite the slow tempo this prelude is not a piece for beginners.

In order to play this piece fluently you must have a lot of experience of fingering. You must not simple rely on the pedal for legato playing. I can suggest a detailed fingering THAT WORKS FOR ME, but I doubt it will help you.

What kind of pieces do you study with your teacher? Why do you think you can manage playing this wihtout a teacher?

Hi Maxine,
I agree, this Chopin Prelude is too much too soon for you.
What other pieces are you working on?

Yeah... I guess I understood that going into it! I had printed it out just to see if I could play it, and when I could play it separately, I was so excited that I kept going. I did this without my teacher, because at first it was just for fun, and later I didn't mention it because I knew he'd just say that it was too difficult.

Alright, thanks for the help, guys. The pieces I study with my teacher are much too easy, and I've been considering switching to a new one. They're not even classical, or well-known - they're just songs from books, named things like "The Porcupine". Although on the other hand, he is teaching me a lot of useful things like arpeggios and chords.

These are pieces I've finished:
- L'autre valse d'amelie by Yann Tiersen
- Comptine d'un autre ete also by Yann Tiersen
- a couple songs by Regina Spektor: Folding Chair, Dusseldorf, Us
- and 1st Gymnopedie by Eric Satie

I guess I'll start La Demarche by Yann Tiersen, and put the Chopin on the back burner rather than pushing myself and becoming frustrated. Thanks again!

Can anyone perhaps recommend anything based on the couple things I mentioned that I don't have trouble with?

Not being an advocate of the doctrine of giving up on a dream piece of music (beyond one’s scope) ... and having discovered as a piano teacher that a "carrot" is the ideal means to overcome any Everest ... amazing how we can fly when there’s a Pied Piper up front ... might I suggest that the Chopin’s Raindrop Prelude 28/15 be taken in easy bites starting with the first 8 measures.

The tricky bit in playing hands together is locked up in the LH scoring (not good by the publishers) in labouring the LH role ... which should be limited to a SINGLE-NOTE outline mimicking the rhythmic patter of raindrops ... the LH opening measure should read Db, Ab, Db, Ab, Ab, Ab, Db, Ab ... and the mid Fs (3rd and 7th notes) should join the RH notes to form chords (F/Ab and F/Bb) ... this note-juggle throughout the first 8 measures, makes the playing that much easier.

Hoping this tweak helps with the combined playing of hands.

Hi Maxine,
Are you communicating your feelings to your teacher, about the pieces being "too easy"? Are you in an adult method book series? Like the Piano Literature series for example?
Are you playing scales and arpeggios?
Just curious. Put the Chopin on hold till you get some sonatinas (Clementi, Diabelli) underway.
Keep us posted! We all learn from each other, I learn so much from you all.

btb - OHH. You know, that makes a lot more sense! I'll have to try it your way and see if I have any success! Thank you for the encouragement.

Barb860 - I'm not, in fact, communicating these feelings to him. There are a few complications, one of them being that he is used to teaching younger children back in the 70s and 80s, and he likes to go very slowly.

My teacher is also my grandfather. I'm positive if I said something, he'd just point out how such-and-such that I do is weak, and that I need more practice. I don't disagree with that, I just enjoy a good challenge. He is not the type of person who would listen to someone younger than him, especially a student. My parents say that he's probably not used to a modern student of my age being able to progress more quickly.

My lessons are somewhat casual. He photocopies my songs out of books, and from peeking I've seen that they're from the end of Level 2 and the beginning of Level 3. They are not adult method, and I'm a young teenager, though I think I could probably handle adult method.

Yes, I have all of my scales, flatted and sharped, and probably about half of my arpeggios, all of them natural so far. I'm not sure if this is a normal pace, and I'm just a typical, impatient, young student, or if I'm talented enough to go faster. Which is why I'm not sure if I want to switch teachers.

I'm actually trying out a Clementi sonatina and having a lot of fun with it, which I forgot to mention. It's Opus 36 No. 6, I believe. I'll have to check out Diabelli, too.

Hi Maxine,
On another thread there is a posting for suggested repertoire, a graded list. I went to this website that was referenced and found it helpful, you may as well:
www.bccexaminations.ca/syllabus.html

It's not the publishers who have decided upon that distribution, it was Chopin, and there is, in my view, very good reason for his having written the note distribution the way he has. Taking some of those chords with the right hand adds additional complications of voicing, particularly for a relative beginner. The whole essence of the first 27 measures (and the concluding measures) of this piece lies in the legato bel-canto melody carried by the right hand. If you suddenly add chords to the right hand melody the question of balance and voicing becomes a struggle that can be completely avoided if, as written, the left hand does the accompanying.

Regards,

Barb860 - Thanks! Unfortunately, that link keeps coming up saying "domain not found"? But I'll look around for that thread, and maybe google some lists of pieces for different levels of experience.

BruceD and btb - I honestly don't know anywhere near enough to know how to comment on the way that this piece was written...

Maxine,
Sorry about that link not working. In the forums, go to "Piano teachers forum" and go to the second page. Look for "RCM graded repertoire list" in the subject. Some good discussion on that thread of suggested pieces. You will find the website there, too.

Thanks so much! The websites on that thread were very helpful to me.

Hi BruceD,
Thanks for taking up cudgels ... from all accounts the original Chopin manuscript for the Raindrop Prelude was written in haste ... (but typically scoring the two hand roles within the bass and treble staves) ... presumably the publishers Schlezinger? had to square up to a copy which would sell well (be relatively easy to sight-read) ... and therefore juggled the original score ... to eventually come down to us as shown below (first page).

But if you look carefully at what is purported to be the Chopin original manuscript ... you will notice that, in separating the hand roles to the two staves that the LH notes are all 8th notes (the rhythmic patter of rain?) ... but what has come down to us is a bastardized jumble of notes jerked up and down between the staves .

Take a look at the first page ... and in particular the opening measure ... the LH 3rd and 7th notes could never be sustained (the ½ and 1/4 notes) ... and are totally out of kilter with the image of Chopin’s rhythmic raindrops ... in view of the prelude having been written in haste ... a smarter and more musically with-it publisher might have asked Chopin whether those mid-notes couldn’t more aptly be joined as chords to the RH role.

Anyhow, I easily play the Prelude with a clear separation of hand roles with the LH drumming out the regular patter of raindrops, so admirably contrasted with the broader theme of RH chords ... excitingly Chopin turns the roles upside-down with the soto voce change of key at m28 ... the drumming RH raindrops are shadowed below by the ominous warning of distant chordal thunder ... prelude to a storm.

But then, everyone to their own ... my suggestion was merely a way to help the OP to play the Raindrop Prelude ... and master the hassle of combining hands.

"..." never be sustained ..."? I sustain them for their full value with my left hand. It appears, however, that you have missed my (musical) point entirely, so we'll just each go our own way with this piece.

Regards,

Jesus. Was the Raindrop really that hard? I played it years ago and didn't seem hard to me, but now when I look at the sheet music, I'm like "I played that? THREE YEARS AGO!? Whaa?"

And yeah, I sustain those notes too.

balderdash chaps ... unless you've got some newfangled damper which allows the LH to spread the half-note in isolation, (without effecting the other notes) while you tap out the other 8th notes ... and after you've done all that, you will have lost the patter of Chopin's original manuscript in LH 8th notes.

"I did it my way!!"

I worked on this ages ago, and I also held the notes. The effect that Chopin is looking for is the increased disonance and tension before the end of each phrase. This has the feeling of a building thunderstorm that is off in the distance then hits with big blasts of thunder during the middle, or B section of the work.

The important things to remember are that this piece requires a relaxed hand with as little tension as possible so that the tone stays even and quiet. The hands should also have good finger independence so that the notes that need to be held are held while the other fingers do the work of phrasing the melodic line.

Another important thing to remember is that the tempo is the same in the C-sharp minor section, and that the sotto voce means to keep those repeated notes as quiet as possible as the melody builds up more tension to the big fortissimos.

John

It has nothing to do with dampers and everything to do with what is known as "finger legato". Evidently, you don't understand!

Cheers!

baderdash again chaps ... you can't con a conner.

Check out a few reputable editions which give fingerings for this Prelude. The edition edited by Claude Debussy (Durand) as well as that edited by Schott (Peters) both clearly show that throughout the entire first page of this Prelude the right hand plays only the single note melody line and the left hand plays all the accompanying figures. Moreover, anyone accustomed to reading music can clearly see that the above-mentioned hand distribution is clearly indicated by the layout in the score. Even the fingering in the score you provided shows in measures 3 and 7 how the left hand handles the accompaniment figures; that it functions similarly throughout the first page should be intuitive.

Bruce is spot on! Finger legato is very important in pieces like this along with half-pedalling and very quick pedaling changes, which was something I didn't mention in my post last night (early A.M.).

These are advanced techniques that can take many years to master properly.

Keep in mind too that pianos during Chopin's time did not have the resonance, homongenous tone, and sonority of a modern grand piano. His instrument was clearly voiced due to its structure and single stringing. This makes a big difference in how the pianist pedals and uses other technique when performing.

At the Frederick Collection, www.frederickcollection.org, there are some pianos from his lifetime including an Erard and Pleyel. Both of which were very popular with Chopin. The pedaling techniques used are far different than we use today. In fact one needs far less pedal to make the piano sing; it's all about technique including finger legato.

John

I'm a little reluctant to jump in here but I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to holding these notes. I don't know about you, but I have five fingers on my left hand. It's quite simple, really, to hold two of them down while using others to play the 8th notes. Mostly I use my thumb and index or middle finger to hold down the longer notes while using the little and ring finger to play the other notes.

I'm not sure which "original manuscript" you are referring to. The earliest printed version is from the French publisher Chez Ad. Catelin et Cie. in 1839 and it clearly shows the same separation of hands as more modern versions. If you look at the autograph (handwritten manuscript) you will see that Chopin clearly intended precisely what is being published.

As I said, I'm not sure where you are coming from on this.

Ed

Must thank epf (who describes himself as a Computer Geek) for digging up the original Chopin manuscript of the 28-15 Prelude ... well worth noting in detail ... clearly written in haste with all those blotches and corrections ... but what Chopin intended IMHO is this separation of the hand roles between the two staves ... the pedal markings should give the clue that the RH should broadly stride in chords, leaving the LH to contrast the patter of raindrops.



John Citron mentions the limitations in the pianos of Chopin’s day ... and adds thoughts on finger legato, half-pedalling with quick changes (years to master properly) ... but after all is said and done ... all we want to do is play this charming Prelude.

Sorry chaps ... we’re not seeing eye to eye ... my ability to play the Raindrop with utmost ease is simply due a separation of hand roles on the two staves (which was the Chopin norm) .

Please chaps ... play the Prelude so that we can share a practical debate .

I hope you stay with it, Maxine. I often start pieces that are at the edge of my ability and take from them what I can and then return to them months or even years later and then try again always with a greater measure of success.

Well, if you are suggesting that the right hand play chords I have to disagree. It is clear from the autograph and from the published score that the right hand here is playing a single note at a time, a cantilena that is played against the "patter" of the regular beat of the raindrops. If I get a chance this weekend I'll video my playing of these first 10 measures since that seems to be the area under discussion.

Ed

Fast-gun Chopin toted a mean LH and could out-shoot anybody ... leaving his RH free to knock off the bad guys with individual shots ... but some of us who can’t boast a fast LH might do better to let the RH do the talking ... and settle for a Winchester .

Hi Maxine,

As suggested it might be a little past your experience level and technique, but dream pieces keep us motivated and can push our technique levels. I'm finally getting close to having Op. 28 No. 15 in a good enough state. I had six years of organ/pipe organ lessons and then a few years of piano under me before I started looking at this piece, but I'm no musical genius and was a terrible student until I switched to piano. My technique is still crappy, but better than before.

I'd say take a break from it, but come back to it in another three months. Work on it for a month again and then repeat the break. The third time going back will probably yield a much more satisfying experience as there will be a lot of hidden knowledge going on in your head and hands.

Interesting discussions on the split of melody and accompaniment. I play it with no right hand borrowing from the left hand. As stated that does make the melody an easier interpretation exercise and working on some better and more difficult left hand technique is not a bad choice in the long run in my opinion.

RobKeymar & HomeInMyShoes - Thanks for the advice! I've been working on this piece, and whenever I was stuck, I'd wait awhile, and come back to it. I've found it works really well for me, too! Most likely, I'll just take a break from it, work on some other things more my speed, and come back to it when I feel ready.

I really have no idea what anyone else is talking about. XD But I appreciate all this information! I'm sure when I have a better understanding of music, it'll all make more sense to me... but I usually use my first and fifth fingers to hit the octave, and then use my second and fourth for the other part of it. Or, first and fifth for octave, and third for the "raindrops".

I think I'll just work on my sonatinas in the meantime... thank you so much, everyone! I love hearing everyone's opinions.

I did a little online research, and Chopin apparently did not name this the "Raindrop" prelude, nor was it written during the Majorca vacation with George Sand, during which the weather was so lousy. It follows that, if the prelude is not meant to portray raindrops, then it shouldn't be fingered in a way that emphasizes the (fictional) raindrops.

maxine, i don't want to be rude, but i think that this piece is a little too hard for you. I have recently learned it and i have spent almost 2 months on it, mostly on interpretation! Why dont you try preludes 4,7 and 20, which are easier yet still very challenging (expecially the 4th one) and beautiful.

Anyway, if you will insist on prelude 15, practice it very slowly and care about every single detail!

Good luck