In this thread, people showed some pictures about curved fingers and curled fingers. Do you think their definition of curved fingers is right?

I checked Piano adventures technique books, it seems the curved fingers figure in PA book is called curled fingers in that thread.

I think most beginners are taught to use curved fingers, but what's the definition of curved fingers? My son was taught like the shape in the PA book (when fingers and hands are totally relaxed). The so called curved fingers in that thread looks more like straight fingers to me, I have to stretch my fingers (use some force) to have that kind of shape.

C.Y., apparently you are not sure about the "proper" position for yourself? For your son? I would think that you ought to explain more precisely what you are getting at, what problem you are trying to resolve. Otherwise you'll probably get another deluge of responses which, it would seem, didn't satisfy you.

I am not interested in the debate about which finger shape is proper for beginners. I am just wondering how teachers define curved fingers? Does it look like the figures in Piano adventures books or the one called curved fingers by keyboardklutz in that thread?

OK, OK.

Different teachers can mean different things by their terminology. The important thing is that the teacher demonstrates to the student what they mean by the terminology so that there's no confusion. You could find out what a majority of teachers here mean by "curved fingers" but it still wouldn't tell you what any other individual teacher means.

There's really no such thing as "hand shape" while playing, because the hand is in motion and goes through quite a variety of shapes!

That being said, in my mind, a person playing with curled (unhealthy) fingers is relying on the nail joint with a grabbing motion that resembles what someone would do if they were to make a first - bringing the fingertips into the palm of the hand.

A person playing with curved "healthy" fingers, would rely on support from the nail joint and movement from the knuckles (more like waving good-bye than making a fist.)

Put another way, curled motions are like scratching your dog's belly while curved motions are like petting a cat's back.

This (to me) explains how pianists like Yuja Wang (curled) and late Horowitz (flat) can get away with their "incorrect" hand shapes. Each employs a healthy motion.

This also explains why people with perfectly natural looking hand shapes can develop RSIs. The shape is "correct," but the underlying motions are creating unhealthy tensions within the wrist and forearm.

We seem to agree on initial handshape but maybe not on nomenclature? Also levels of residual tension vary from person to person, even children (they often have no concept of relaxed, why need they?) Could you post the figures from Piano Adventures?

Check out this thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...html#Post438254
Also search in Pianist Corner for 'curved curled' (make sure you choose a 1 year range, I kept forgetting).

Kreisler, that is the clearest explanation I have ever read. Thank you!

KS

And mostly wrong!

So klutz, could we have an explanation of precisely what you think is wrong with it? And, I beg you, an explanation that's clear, not a cryptic one-liner - much as I enjoy some of your cryptic one-liners ...

I'm just happy kbk thinks I'm only mostly wrong. That means I got some of it right!


Yay me!

Hi Kreisler,
I think I understand what you said. But when you teach a beginner student, is there some kind of basic "hand shape" you would ask beginners to have?



Could you tell me your definition of curled and curved fingers? If your definition of curled fingers is the same as keyboardklutz, "a bit curled but not too bad" shape (called curved fingers in PA books), I don't think your description of motions is right. When my son plays 5-finger position (i.e. no need to stretch), his hand is like the curved fingers figure in PA book, he moves his third joint (knuckle) down when hitting the key and up when releasing from the key, just like your description of the flatter fingers (the one keyboardklutz called curved fingers)

I think the difference is on the second joint. At least for me, when my finger is relaxed, the second joint is curved like the figures in the PA books. If I want a flatter finger (keyboardklutz's curved fingers), I would need to stretch my second joint a little bit so it would go out).

I only have the books and don't have a scanner to scan it. I thought many teachers here use PA books, do they have the PA curved fingers figure they can post?

I will take a look at that thread. But I am just a parent, I don't even play piano other than practicing with my son. Like I said, I am not here to say which fingers shape should be taught to the beginners. Just wondering are people talking the same thing when referred to the "curved fingers".

If you place your hand in front of your head (eyes) and relax, are your fingers' second joints (finger 2 to 5) more like 90 degrees angle or more like a straight line?

I think I need to elaborate a little bit. When my son plays 5-finger position (not staccato), his fingers' first joints (nail joint) almost don't move. Actually PA book asks students to have "firm fingertip", that means the first joint need to to firm and keep the shape after hitting keys, and don't collapse. His fingers' second joints move just a little bit. And the third joints (knuckle) do the up/down movements.

CY, I did your kind of exploring about 7 years ago. It's a tangled web and doesn't go anywhere except maybe confusion. A lot of technical things are acquired through instructions, and by carrying out the exercises. They come from the inside, and are visible on the outside. Meanwhile, different musicians and teachers start refining what they have worked with, and define principles and fine points. They will seem to argue with each other when maybe there is something in common among them all. After all, we have one body which is constructed in one way, and the piano has one general mechanism. These discussions in words on the Net almost go beside the point. The only reliable thing is in the physical presence of somebody who knows what he is doing. When you then carry out the instructions, he will know by observing you that it's going the right way. I almost got tangled up back then and it's not something I would want to repeat.

I think everyone is ignoring the fact that the knuckle joining the hand is almost always "looked" at from above. But if we were to burn the hand over with palm side up, we can "touch, feel and find" where the knuckle really starts on the palmside. (My goodness!)

Looking at the top of the hand you can create a tall "mountain range" by folding the fingers downward from what appears to be their connection to fingers. Deceptive. Draw a mental line where your fingers really start. (My goodness!)

You have to travel along the backside of the index finger pressing from the tip toward the hand to find the ending of the rounded place underneath the joint. It's a huge knuckle there. Looking again at the upturned palm and folding the fingers at that joint, you have a new understanding of the formation of all of your knuckles starting with the biggest knuckles connected at the hand. Now looking at the "hand" part of the hand, you realize there is a lot less of the hand, and much more of the finger mechanism than you thought. (Fingers begin further back!)

There is more we can learn by continuing to look at the possibilities of movement from this join. I won't try to describe it here.

My point being, that I think many pianists wind up tapping the keys with limited finger motion because the curved hand position is designed to limit motion because we now play the finger from the top of the finger where we "see" it begin and that there is a tension in the hand and fingers because of this concept. Yes, this is needed in Baroque and Classical music where finger control is fingertips playing close to the keys and quickly. Dynamics? Some, from arm weight, but, nuances? Not with the fingers.

When you allow movement from this further back into the hand, they respond with a higher lift off of the keys, heigth is gained, as well as well as the capacity fast moving fingers.

I don't think these illustration do a darn thing to help us establish the hand shape we need to consider in playing different styles of music from different eras. There was an evolution of finger and hand and wrist, arm movement (from the back shoulder muscles forward) over time, all related to the human body as how to expand one's self to meet the needs of making the music, and vice versa.

The original keyboard pieces insisted we use our body differently at the keyboard. We went from "Germanic" (germane) to lax/limber in our executions. Not just in the hand, but in mind and body connection to apply the required variety of touches.

The illustrations in method books puts our beginners into a "fixed" position for a lifetime. We have to say this is how we start, but you will find the shape changing over time because music asks us to find many ways to use our hands in piano playing. We will begin here, like this.

Hand shaping is not one size fits all. We have to discover and use the shapes and touches that work for us in becoming more expressive at the piano.

The piano is a musical instrument to be played with the body, the ear, the mind, and heart.

The mechanics of playing piano should be thoroughly understood as they apply to our capacity to apply body movement. We need to understand that from our "inner world" position, as having seen the illustration or read instructions in a book, we do not own it without our own examinations and finding through personal experience.

We have to learn how to operate "the musical us" components.

Is this as startling to you as I think it is?

Betty Patnude

The natural curvature of the hand is concave when at rest. Why then are not the piano keys convex to take account of this?

Two reasons I think:

1) It'd be really hard to build.

2) Gravity always goes Down. Drop into a convex key, and you have very little room for error if you want to avoid sliding off.

Betty, an important question. When you teach the bringing in of the fingers, or the "pencil" thing you refer to (you'll know what I mean) - would this be the German hand for Baroque and Classic period music?

KS

Do you mean when moving a flatter finger, you use the "huge knuckle" that is further back into the hand? And when moving a curved finger, you don't use that "huge knuckle" and thus is a limited motion? But a knuckle is a knuckle (the third joint), isn't this the same joint that moved whether your second joint is curved (curved finger) or flatter (flatter finger)? I can see maybe for curved finger, you don't need to move down your knuckle as much as the flatter finger before reaching the key, is this what you referred as limited motion?

Hi keystring,
7 years ago, we don't have youtube yet. I think using video clips could help people a lot to get points acrossed.
Is relaxation important for violinists? Do you think the left hands of violinists look more like curved fingers (curled for keyboardklutz's description) or flatter fingers?

Extremely curled. If you look back to the Mozart family portrait Leopold is illustrating his left hand technique.

Correct.

Incorrect. The most unhealthy curlers do it from the knuckle. The use the grab to hold the shape, not articulate the movement. This was best epitomised by the Stuttgard School and is very, very bad for you.

Incorrect. There is a choice of articulating from the nail joint or knuckle. Schultz recommends nail joint as do I. You'd have to be a pretty smart cookie to work out which a performer is using, here we get on to Matthay's Invisible technique.

Incorrect. See above (besides, who has every 'petted' a cat's back? Sounds kinda weird)

Correct.

Incorrect. If you have fundamentally a relaxed hand which you come and go from during play, you'll be alright unless you overwork - and that varies from individual to individual.

Anything else currawong? May I go back to being cryptic? I'm worn out.

Then why violinists don't have tension problems with curved fingers while pianists could have tension problems with curved fingers (according to Betty)? I thought violinists also only move the knuckles (third joint) and the first and second joints almost are not moved.

When I said moving the knuckles up and down, I meant using knuckles as a pivot and move fingers up and down.

Could you elaborate on this one? Isn't this how Wang Yuja plays in the video clips (using knuckles as pivot to move fingers up and down)?

Keystring,

Yes, that's a lightbulb moment! I'm glad you remembered it.

The "4 owls sitting on a tree branch idea. (use a straight edge for alighment - pen or pencil). Try putting 3rd (middle) finger on first, bring 2-4 forward to join with 3, and bringing forward again by bringing the wrist closerto the pen, 1 and 5.

You do NOT want to be forcing it into this position, you want to achieve easy movement and neutrality with it. Create it as easily as you can but not insisting it be concrete. Concrete is immovable. No tension is added to the mix any where between neck, shoulder and finger tips in achieving this position or holding this position. It just is.

For playing Baroque and Classical era music. Think about the "why?" of it.

Romantic music totally changes the picture. Think about the "why" of it, again, different era. What were the changes?

Today we have access to the entire keyboard history of technique and literature. It is obvious to see changes with a perspective like that. And, the questions of the day are, "how" and "why" and "who" and "what" happened to change.

Betty

C.Y. i gotta say, could you do some googling first? Google Stuttgard School and piano, then try violin and tendonitis, you'll get most of your answers.

C.Y.,

You quoted: ".....while pianists could have tension problems with curved fingers (according to Betty)?

Students should not expect to understand what I am saying immediately because it takes a lifetime of experience and growing knowledge on your part to have my words mean something to you in the first place. Perhaps there are things written that you are not ready for because there are missing parts not filled in. You can't get there from here with missing parts - like a car engine, you know? Finely tuned, up and running! Curiosity takes you there, but unless it makes total sense to you and you can demonstrate it back, and use it on your own, it does not make sense for you to go to those places. The unfinished areas are where confusion and frustration reside. You can't build on the unknown.

It has taken me 56 years of piano playing and 38 years of piano teaching to know what I am talking about here when I post. It's that "Rome wasn't built in a day!"

Let me correct your understanding of what I meant:

There is no reason that a tension problem will result with the hand shape I'm suggesting. My hand shape creates a comfortable neutral position to move from. Neutral is a bonus.

It is the lack of relaxing naturally within the piece that creates tension, the composer gives us lots of opportunities to relax, the ends of phrases, beginning of new phrases, long notes half note and above, changing hand shapes and positions for instance.

Any tension is injected only as and when needed according to composers demands in the music.

Also, when students learn to play to the phrase, the ambitus and the tessitura, their fingers achieve a new glide to targeted notes on the piano, the "fingersounds" begin to disappear and the phrase takes on new dimensions of flow. Of course, there is a lot of technique to learn behind this explanation. How and why we use our apparatus the way we do to evoke the sound is a step beyond the note naming, key finding, fingering impulse and duration that occurs in basic piano lessons.

We are now talking about artistry and expression and flow. A different and later development area that is the place where we become fluent musicians.

Although we as teachers are guiding movement from the start, IF you are using a method book and the teacher is NOT guiding your movement with examples and explanations, you are not getting all the tools you need to work with.

Assuming things does not help the learner, he should ask questions and receive answers, or he may be hasty in coming to his own conclusions. Compare piano questions to piano answers, as violin has it's own set of principles and considerations, as do all other instruments.

The word "grab" keeps appearing when we talk about hand shape and fingering. How much I disagree with that! I also disagree with "hit".

Keystring made mention the other day about teaching martial arts....I interpreted that to mean...."The whole character of the student applied to the piano is NOT something he does, but something he is."

If you think like a musician you will play like a musician. So to become a musician you have to behave like a musician, in thinking, and in action.

The piano is a musical instrument to be played with the body, the ear, the mind, and heart.

Betty

Great posts Betty! I'm pretty much in whole hearted agreement with most! (I hope Kreisler isn't getting jealous)

Our fingers should be relaxed and supple. A steep finger will make a sharper sound while flatter gives something more lush, but too flat is dull. Here is a young violinist and Abram Shtern, who is well into his 80's: two left hands

Mention was made of Leopold Mozart. The instrument, music, and technique were all different at that time: L. Mozart - picture
and
L. Mozart - picture 2
No modern violin student would dare hold a violin at such an angle. Only fiddlers still do, because their music often stays in low positions. I'm not sure to what degree he can be taken as a model.


I can't answer about curling because it's not vocabulary that we ever used.