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#1190458 - 04/30/09 10:01 AM What's your definition of curved fingers?
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
In this thread, people showed some pictures about curved fingers and curled fingers. Do you think their definition of curved fingers is right?

I checked Piano adventures technique books, it seems the curved fingers figure in PA book is called curled fingers in that thread.

I think most beginners are taught to use curved fingers, but what's the definition of curved fingers? My son was taught like the shape in the PA book (when fingers and hands are totally relaxed). The so called curved fingers in that thread looks more like straight fingers to me, I have to stretch my fingers (use some force) to have that kind of shape.

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#1190537 - 04/30/09 11:48 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
landorrano Offline
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C.Y., apparently you are not sure about the "proper" position for yourself? For your son? I would think that you ought to explain more precisely what you are getting at, what problem you are trying to resolve. Otherwise you'll probably get another deluge of responses which, it would seem, didn't satisfy you.

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#1190661 - 04/30/09 02:47 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: landorrano]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
I am not interested in the debate about which finger shape is proper for beginners. I am just wondering how teachers define curved fingers? Does it look like the figures in Piano adventures books or the one called curved fingers by keyboardklutz in that thread?

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#1190747 - 04/30/09 04:58 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
landorrano Offline
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OK, OK.

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#1190886 - 04/30/09 09:54 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
I am not interested in the debate about which finger shape is proper for beginners. I am just wondering how teachers define curved fingers? Does it look like the figures in Piano adventures books or the one called curved fingers by keyboardklutz in that thread?

Different teachers can mean different things by their terminology. The important thing is that the teacher demonstrates to the student what they mean by the terminology so that there's no confusion. You could find out what a majority of teachers here mean by "curved fingers" but it still wouldn't tell you what any other individual teacher means.
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#1190969 - 05/01/09 12:30 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: currawong]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
There's really no such thing as "hand shape" while playing, because the hand is in motion and goes through quite a variety of shapes!

That being said, in my mind, a person playing with curled (unhealthy) fingers is relying on the nail joint with a grabbing motion that resembles what someone would do if they were to make a first - bringing the fingertips into the palm of the hand.

A person playing with curved "healthy" fingers, would rely on support from the nail joint and movement from the knuckles (more like waving good-bye than making a fist.)

Put another way, curled motions are like scratching your dog's belly while curved motions are like petting a cat's back.

This (to me) explains how pianists like Yuja Wang (curled) and late Horowitz (flat) can get away with their "incorrect" hand shapes. Each employs a healthy motion.

This also explains why people with perfectly natural looking hand shapes can develop RSIs. The shape is "correct," but the underlying motions are creating unhealthy tensions within the wrist and forearm.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1190998 - 05/01/09 01:37 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
In this thread,

I think most beginners are taught to use curved fingers, but what's the definition of curved fingers? My son was taught like the shape in the PA book (when fingers and hands are totally relaxed).
We seem to agree on initial handshape but maybe not on nomenclature? Also levels of residual tension vary from person to person, even children (they often have no concept of relaxed, why need they?) Could you post the figures from Piano Adventures?

Check out this thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...html#Post438254
Also search in Pianist Corner for 'curved curled' (make sure you choose a 1 year range, I kept forgetting).
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#1191006 - 05/01/09 01:48 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keystring Online   content
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Kreisler, that is the clearest explanation I have ever read. Thank you! smile

KS

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#1191022 - 05/01/09 02:20 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Kreisler, that is the clearest explanation I have ever read.
And mostly wrong!
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#1191039 - 05/01/09 03:10 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: keystring
Kreisler, that is the clearest explanation I have ever read.
And mostly wrong!

So klutz, could we have an explanation of precisely what you think is wrong with it? And, I beg you, an explanation that's clear, not a cryptic one-liner - much as I enjoy some of your cryptic one-liners smile...
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#1191110 - 05/01/09 08:33 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: currawong]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I'm just happy kbk thinks I'm only mostly wrong. That means I got some of it right!


Yay me! laugh

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#1191149 - 05/01/09 10:30 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
There's really no such thing as "hand shape" while playing, because the hand is in motion and goes through quite a variety of shapes!

Hi Kreisler,
I think I understand what you said. But when you teach a beginner student, is there some kind of basic "hand shape" you would ask beginners to have?

Originally Posted By: Kreisler

That being said, in my mind, a person playing with curled (unhealthy) fingers is relying on the nail joint with a grabbing motion that resembles what someone would do if they were to make a first - bringing the fingertips into the palm of the hand.


Could you tell me your definition of curled and curved fingers? If your definition of curled fingers is the same as keyboardklutz, "a bit curled but not too bad" shape (called curved fingers in PA books), I don't think your description of motions is right. When my son plays 5-finger position (i.e. no need to stretch), his hand is like the curved fingers figure in PA book, he moves his third joint (knuckle) down when hitting the key and up when releasing from the key, just like your description of the flatter fingers (the one keyboardklutz called curved fingers)

I think the difference is on the second joint. At least for me, when my finger is relaxed, the second joint is curved like the figures in the PA books. If I want a flatter finger (keyboardklutz's curved fingers), I would need to stretch my second joint a little bit so it would go out).

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#1191157 - 05/01/09 10:42 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
C.Y. Offline
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Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
We seem to agree on initial handshape but maybe not on nomenclature? Also levels of residual tension vary from person to person, even children (they often have no concept of relaxed, why need they?) Could you post the figures from Piano Adventures?


I only have the books and don't have a scanner to scan it. I thought many teachers here use PA books, do they have the PA curved fingers figure they can post?

I will take a look at that thread. But I am just a parent, I don't even play piano other than practicing with my son. Like I said, I am not here to say which fingers shape should be taught to the beginners. Just wondering are people talking the same thing when referred to the "curved fingers".

If you place your hand in front of your head (eyes) and relax, are your fingers' second joints (finger 2 to 5) more like 90 degrees angle or more like a straight line?

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#1191170 - 05/01/09 11:04 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: C.Y
When my son plays 5-finger position (i.e. no need to stretch), his hand is like the curved fingers figure in PA book, he moves his third joint (knuckle) down when hitting the key and up when releasing from the key, just like your description of the flatter fingers (the one keyboardklutz called curved fingers)


I think I need to elaborate a little bit. When my son plays 5-finger position (not staccato), his fingers' first joints (nail joint) almost don't move. Actually PA book asks students to have "firm fingertip", that means the first joint need to to firm and keep the shape after hitting keys, and don't collapse. His fingers' second joints move just a little bit. And the third joints (knuckle) do the up/down movements.

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#1191183 - 05/01/09 11:28 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keystring Online   content
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CY, I did your kind of exploring about 7 years ago. It's a tangled web and doesn't go anywhere except maybe confusion. A lot of technical things are acquired through instructions, and by carrying out the exercises. They come from the inside, and are visible on the outside. Meanwhile, different musicians and teachers start refining what they have worked with, and define principles and fine points. They will seem to argue with each other when maybe there is something in common among them all. After all, we have one body which is constructed in one way, and the piano has one general mechanism. These discussions in words on the Net almost go beside the point. The only reliable thing is in the physical presence of somebody who knows what he is doing. When you then carry out the instructions, he will know by observing you that it's going the right way. I almost got tangled up back then and it's not something I would want to repeat.

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#1191226 - 05/01/09 12:21 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
Betty Patnude Offline
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I think everyone is ignoring the fact that the knuckle joining the hand is almost always "looked" at from above. But if we were to burn the hand over with palm side up, we can "touch, feel and find" where the knuckle really starts on the palmside. (My goodness!)

Looking at the top of the hand you can create a tall "mountain range" by folding the fingers downward from what appears to be their connection to fingers. Deceptive. Draw a mental line where your fingers really start. (My goodness!)

You have to travel along the backside of the index finger pressing from the tip toward the hand to find the ending of the rounded place underneath the joint. It's a huge knuckle there. Looking again at the upturned palm and folding the fingers at that joint, you have a new understanding of the formation of all of your knuckles starting with the biggest knuckles connected at the hand. Now looking at the "hand" part of the hand, you realize there is a lot less of the hand, and much more of the finger mechanism than you thought. (Fingers begin further back!)

There is more we can learn by continuing to look at the possibilities of movement from this join. I won't try to describe it here.

My point being, that I think many pianists wind up tapping the keys with limited finger motion because the curved hand position is designed to limit motion because we now play the finger from the top of the finger where we "see" it begin and that there is a tension in the hand and fingers because of this concept. Yes, this is needed in Baroque and Classical music where finger control is fingertips playing close to the keys and quickly. Dynamics? Some, from arm weight, but, nuances? Not with the fingers.

When you allow movement from this further back into the hand, they respond with a higher lift off of the keys, heigth is gained, as well as well as the capacity fast moving fingers.

I don't think these illustration do a darn thing to help us establish the hand shape we need to consider in playing different styles of music from different eras. There was an evolution of finger and hand and wrist, arm movement (from the back shoulder muscles forward) over time, all related to the human body as how to expand one's self to meet the needs of making the music, and vice versa.

The original keyboard pieces insisted we use our body differently at the keyboard. We went from "Germanic" (germane) to lax/limber in our executions. Not just in the hand, but in mind and body connection to apply the required variety of touches.

The illustrations in method books puts our beginners into a "fixed" position for a lifetime. We have to say this is how we start, but you will find the shape changing over time because music asks us to find many ways to use our hands in piano playing. We will begin here, like this.

Hand shaping is not one size fits all. We have to discover and use the shapes and touches that work for us in becoming more expressive at the piano.

The piano is a musical instrument to be played with the body, the ear, the mind, and heart.

The mechanics of playing piano should be thoroughly understood as they apply to our capacity to apply body movement. We need to understand that from our "inner world" position, as having seen the illustration or read instructions in a book, we do not own it without our own examinations and finding through personal experience.

We have to learn how to operate "the musical us" components.

Is this as startling to you as I think it is?

Betty Patnude

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#1191230 - 05/01/09 12:34 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Mocheol Offline
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Loc: Dublin, Ireland
The natural curvature of the hand is concave when at rest. Why then are not the piano keys convex to take account of this?
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#1191253 - 05/01/09 01:18 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Mocheol]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Two reasons I think:

1) It'd be really hard to build.

2) Gravity always goes Down. Drop into a convex key, and you have very little room for error if you want to avoid sliding off.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1191256 - 05/01/09 01:31 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keystring Online   content
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Betty, an important question. When you teach the bringing in of the fingers, or the "pencil" thing you refer to (you'll know what I mean) - would this be the German hand for Baroque and Classic period music?

KS

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#1191258 - 05/01/09 01:34 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

My point being, that I think many pianists wind up tapping the keys with limited finger motion because the curved hand position is designed to limit motion because we now play the finger from the top of the finger where we "see" it begin and that there is a tension in the hand and fingers because of this concept. Yes, this is needed in Baroque and Classical music where finger control is fingertips playing close to the keys and quickly. Dynamics? Some, from arm weight, but, nuances? Not with the fingers.

When you allow movement from this further back into the hand, they respond with a higher lift off of the keys, heigth is gained, as well as well as the capacity fast moving fingers.


Do you mean when moving a flatter finger, you use the "huge knuckle" that is further back into the hand? And when moving a curved finger, you don't use that "huge knuckle" and thus is a limited motion? But a knuckle is a knuckle (the third joint), isn't this the same joint that moved whether your second joint is curved (curved finger) or flatter (flatter finger)? I can see maybe for curved finger, you don't need to move down your knuckle as much as the flatter finger before reaching the key, is this what you referred as limited motion?


Edited by C.Y. (05/01/09 04:17 PM)
Edit Reason: Changed hitting to reaching

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#1191264 - 05/01/09 01:41 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: keystring
CY, I did your kind of exploring about 7 years ago.


Hi keystring,
7 years ago, we don't have youtube yet. I think using video clips could help people a lot to get points acrossed.
Is relaxation important for violinists? Do you think the left hands of violinists look more like curved fingers (curled for keyboardklutz's description) or flatter fingers?

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#1191302 - 05/01/09 02:30 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.

Is relaxation important for violinists? Do you think the left hands of violinists look more like curved fingers (curled for keyboardklutz's description) or flatter fingers?
Extremely curled. If you look back to the Mozart family portrait Leopold is illustrating his left hand technique.
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#1191315 - 05/01/09 02:43 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
There's really no such thing as "hand shape" while playing, because the hand is in motion and goes through quite a variety of shapes!
Correct.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
That being said, in my mind, a person playing with curled (unhealthy) fingers is relying on the nail joint with a grabbing motion that resembles what someone would do if they were to make a first - bringing the fingertips into the palm of the hand.
Incorrect. The most unhealthy curlers do it from the knuckle. The use the grab to hold the shape, not articulate the movement. This was best epitomised by the Stuttgard School and is very, very bad for you.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
A person playing with curved "healthy" fingers, would rely on support from the nail joint and movement from the knuckles (more like waving good-bye than making a fist.)
Incorrect. There is a choice of articulating from the nail joint or knuckle. Schultz recommends nail joint as do I. You'd have to be a pretty smart cookie to work out which a performer is using, here we get on to Matthay's Invisible technique.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Put another way, curled motions are like scratching your dog's belly while curved motions are like petting a cat's back.
Incorrect. See above (besides, who has every 'petted' a cat's back? Sounds kinda weird)

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
This (to me) explains how pianists like Yuja Wang (curled) and late Horowitz (flat) can get away with their "incorrect" hand shapes. Each employs a healthy motion.
Correct.

Originally Posted By: Kreisler
This also explains why people with perfectly natural looking hand shapes can develop RSIs. The shape is "correct," but the underlying motions are creating unhealthy tensions within the wrist and forearm.
Incorrect. If you have fundamentally a relaxed hand which you come and go from during play, you'll be alright unless you overwork - and that varies from individual to individual.

Anything else currawong? May I go back to being cryptic? I'm worn out.
_________________________
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#1191319 - 05/01/09 02:46 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Then why violinists don't have tension problems with curved fingers while pianists could have tension problems with curved fingers (according to Betty)? I thought violinists also only move the knuckles (third joint) and the first and second joints almost are not moved.

When I said moving the knuckles up and down, I meant using knuckles as a pivot and move fingers up and down.


Edited by C.Y. (05/01/09 03:11 PM)

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#1191321 - 05/01/09 03:15 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
C.Y. Offline
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Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Incorrect. The most unhealthy curlers do it from the knuckle. The use the grab to hold the shape, not articulate the movement. This was best epitomised by the Stuttgard School and is very, very bad for you.

Could you elaborate on this one? Isn't this how Wang Yuja plays in the video clips (using knuckles as pivot to move fingers up and down)?

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#1191330 - 05/01/09 03:34 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Registered: 06/11/07
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Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Keystring,

Yes, that's a lightbulb moment! I'm glad you remembered it.

The "4 owls sitting on a tree branch idea. (use a straight edge for alighment - pen or pencil). Try putting 3rd (middle) finger on first, bring 2-4 forward to join with 3, and bringing forward again by bringing the wrist closerto the pen, 1 and 5.

You do NOT want to be forcing it into this position, you want to achieve easy movement and neutrality with it. Create it as easily as you can but not insisting it be concrete. Concrete is immovable. No tension is added to the mix any where between neck, shoulder and finger tips in achieving this position or holding this position. It just is.

For playing Baroque and Classical era music. Think about the "why?" of it.

Romantic music totally changes the picture. Think about the "why" of it, again, different era. What were the changes?

Today we have access to the entire keyboard history of technique and literature. It is obvious to see changes with a perspective like that. And, the questions of the day are, "how" and "why" and "who" and "what" happened to change.

Betty

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#1191345 - 05/01/09 04:03 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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C.Y. i gotta say, could you do some googling first? Google Stuttgard School and piano, then try violin and tendonitis, you'll get most of your answers.
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#1191347 - 05/01/09 04:06 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Betty Patnude Offline
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C.Y.,

You quoted: ".....while pianists could have tension problems with curved fingers (according to Betty)?

Students should not expect to understand what I am saying immediately because it takes a lifetime of experience and growing knowledge on your part to have my words mean something to you in the first place. Perhaps there are things written that you are not ready for because there are missing parts not filled in. You can't get there from here with missing parts - like a car engine, you know? Finely tuned, up and running! Curiosity takes you there, but unless it makes total sense to you and you can demonstrate it back, and use it on your own, it does not make sense for you to go to those places. The unfinished areas are where confusion and frustration reside. You can't build on the unknown.

It has taken me 56 years of piano playing and 38 years of piano teaching to know what I am talking about here when I post. It's that "Rome wasn't built in a day!"

Let me correct your understanding of what I meant:

There is no reason that a tension problem will result with the hand shape I'm suggesting. My hand shape creates a comfortable neutral position to move from. Neutral is a bonus.

It is the lack of relaxing naturally within the piece that creates tension, the composer gives us lots of opportunities to relax, the ends of phrases, beginning of new phrases, long notes half note and above, changing hand shapes and positions for instance.

Any tension is injected only as and when needed according to composers demands in the music.

Also, when students learn to play to the phrase, the ambitus and the tessitura, their fingers achieve a new glide to targeted notes on the piano, the "fingersounds" begin to disappear and the phrase takes on new dimensions of flow. Of course, there is a lot of technique to learn behind this explanation. How and why we use our apparatus the way we do to evoke the sound is a step beyond the note naming, key finding, fingering impulse and duration that occurs in basic piano lessons.

We are now talking about artistry and expression and flow. A different and later development area that is the place where we become fluent musicians.

Although we as teachers are guiding movement from the start, IF you are using a method book and the teacher is NOT guiding your movement with examples and explanations, you are not getting all the tools you need to work with.

Assuming things does not help the learner, he should ask questions and receive answers, or he may be hasty in coming to his own conclusions. Compare piano questions to piano answers, as violin has it's own set of principles and considerations, as do all other instruments.

The word "grab" keeps appearing when we talk about hand shape and fingering. How much I disagree with that! I also disagree with "hit".

Keystring made mention the other day about teaching martial arts....I interpreted that to mean...."The whole character of the student applied to the piano is NOT something he does, but something he is."

If you think like a musician you will play like a musician. So to become a musician you have to behave like a musician, in thinking, and in action.

The piano is a musical instrument to be played with the body, the ear, the mind, and heart.

Betty


Edited by Betty Patnude (05/01/09 04:07 PM)
Edit Reason: Little typo's - out!

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#1191352 - 05/01/09 04:16 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Great posts Betty! I'm pretty much in whole hearted agreement with most! (I hope Kreisler isn't getting jealous)
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#1191353 - 05/01/09 04:17 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keystring Online   content
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Quote:
s relaxation important for violinists? Do you think the left hands of violinists look more like curved fingers (curled for keyboardklutz's description) or flatter fingers?

Our fingers should be relaxed and supple. A steep finger will make a sharper sound while flatter gives something more lush, but too flat is dull. Here is a young violinist and Abram Shtern, who is well into his 80's: two left hands

Mention was made of Leopold Mozart. The instrument, music, and technique were all different at that time: L. Mozart - picture
and
L. Mozart - picture 2
No modern violin student would dare hold a violin at such an angle. Only fiddlers still do, because their music often stays in low positions. I'm not sure to what degree he can be taken as a model.


I can't answer about curling because it's not vocabulary that we ever used.

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#1191358 - 05/01/09 04:26 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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KS, your first leopold picture (fig 3 in his book) is actually entitled 'Faulty Position', so not much of a model to anyone.
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#1191359 - 05/01/09 04:26 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
C.Y. Offline
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This is just one violinist on youtube, but I have seen several and they all seems like to have curved-finger left hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWFcwdtpJas

keyboardklutz seems to imply the violinists would get tendonitis because of their curved fingers. What's your take on it?

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#1191361 - 05/01/09 04:29 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
keyboardklutz seems to imply the violinists would get tendonitis because of their curved fingers. What's your take on it?
I'm sorry, I must have missed that post.
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#1191369 - 05/01/09 04:48 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
KS, your first leopold picture (fig 3 in his book) is actually entitled 'Faulty Position', so not much of a model to anyone.

The 45 degree angle to the floor is typical of the time and his playing, and would be considered extremely wrong nowadays for good reason.
CY, you'll get your best answers from people who are experienced in playing and/or teaching the violin. violinist.com and maestronet.com have some excellent people on board.
I'll leave this discussion to go back on track to piano.

KS


Edited by keystring (05/01/09 04:56 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar

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#1191371 - 05/01/09 04:48 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
C.Y. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

It is the lack of relaxing naturally within the piece that creates tension, the composer gives us lots of opportunities to relax, the ends of phrases, beginning of new phrases, long notes half note and above, changing hand shapes and positions for instance.

Any tension is injected only as and when needed according to composers demands in the music.

Also, when students learn to play to the phrase, the ambitus and the tessitura, their fingers achieve a new glide to targeted notes on the piano, the "fingersounds" begin to disappear and the phrase takes on new dimensions of flow. Of course, there is a lot of technique to learn behind this explanation. How and why we use our apparatus the way we do to evoke the sound is a step beyond the note naming, key finding, fingering impulse and duration that occurs in basic piano lessons.

Betty,
I understand as you get more advanced, you have to create different "tones" with different ways to "press" the key. I have heard some people says that for certain "tones", you have to play with flatter fingers. But for beginners, do you still expect them to do that? If not, how do you ask your beginner students to play?

I agree that the lack of relaxing naturally within the piece that creates tension. Do you imply the curved fingers can't relax natually and only flatter fingers can? This is the part I don't understand. Both use the knuckles as pivot to move fingers up and down while the curved fingers' second joints are relaxing and the flatter fingers' second joints are extending out with a little bit of force applied.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

The word "grab" keeps appearing when we talk about hand shape and fingering. How much I disagree with that! I also disagree with "hit".

I don't understand where the the word "grab" comes from, at least I didn't notice my son's fingers "grab" (the motion towards the palm) anything.

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#1191374 - 05/01/09 04:52 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline


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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Great posts Betty! I'm pretty much in whole hearted agreement with most! (I hope Kreisler isn't getting jealous)


frown
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#1191377 - 05/01/09 04:55 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
C.Y. Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: C.Y.
keyboardklutz seems to imply the violinists would get tendonitis because of their curved fingers. What's your take on it?
I'm sorry, I must have missed that post.


I am sorry I probably misunderstood you.
Originally Posted By: C.Y.
Then why violinists don't have tension problems with curved fingers while pianists could have tension problems with curved fingers (according to Betty)? I thought violinists also only move the knuckles (third joint) and the first and second joints almost are not moved.

When I said moving the knuckles up and down, I meant using knuckles as a pivot and move fingers up and down.


Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
C.Y. i gotta say, could you do some googling first? Google Stuttgard School and piano, then try violin and tendonitis, you'll get most of your answers.

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#1191379 - 05/01/09 05:00 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keystring Online   content
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Quote:
Romantic music totally changes the picture. Think about the "why" of it, again, different era. What were the changes?

This is a confirmation, then, that the German owl on tree branch hand does not work with music of a different era and style? I did not know how to word my question in pianistic terms a year ago. Thank you for the explanation.

KS

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#1191432 - 05/01/09 07:14 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
Betty Patnude Offline
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C.Y. said: "?When I said moving the knuckles up and down, I meant using knuckles as a pivot and move fingers up and down."

Fingers pivot at the finger tips to turn in the direction (left or right) toward the next key.

Fingers are connected by knuckle joints to allow opening and closing and shaping of the fingers as desirable. Then the lifting up and down of the finger occurs - the detail being where on the hand the message is being sent to lift from.

These are two different movements for different purposes.

It is difficult to figure out what a poster is saying when it is all written dialogue with no examples using diagrams or graphics. The typing keyboard just doesn't have the capacity to do this - directions and curves are lacking.

Maybe we should quit while we are ahead.

Another thing I need to mention, I don't like to see my comments about piano hands used in talking about violin, it does not compute, but there was the quote again with my name. A misuse of what I was saying about piano hands.

The more we express what we don't understand, the more confusion we create for ourselves. Is it not simple to find a responsbile resource with which to learn. Supposition isn't what it's cracked up to be. And, we can ask and ask and ask, but if the knowledged person is not here to post, we are out of luck for today. Also, if the knowledged person has posted well to our questions we are not going to know it was a good answer we just received. Two steps forward, one step backwards.

Music is a pursuit for a lifetime. Pursuit doesn't mean beating something to death to get an answer. Quiet pursuit gives us a "gift" when we are ready to receive it. We now know, but in the meantime other question have come up. Are we done yet? No. Never.

Betty

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#1191434 - 05/01/09 07:18 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Poster: Kreisler
Subject: Re: What's your definition of curved fingers?


Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Great posts Betty! I'm pretty much in whole hearted agreement with most! (I hope Kreisler isn't getting jealous)

To which Kreisler frowned! (icon) (No comment given)


I'm adding:

thumb

Gee, I keep good company!

Thank you!

Betty




Edited by Betty Patnude (05/01/09 07:20 PM)

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#1191464 - 05/01/09 08:37 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

Fingers pivot at the finger tips to turn in the direction (left or right) toward the next key.



You cannot "pivot" your finger at the tip to the left or the right. This is anatomically impossible.

The word pivot used in this context means a joint in which movement is limited to rotation. You cannot "rotate" your fingertip. The Distal inter-phalangeal joint (the one at your finger tip) is a hinge joint, not a pivot joint.
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#1191530 - 05/01/09 11:25 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Differences of opinion between Gerry and Betty exists here - would you like to entertain the question and help us come to a conclusion?

Gerry tells us: "You cannot "pivot" your finger at the tip to the left or the right. This is anatomically impossible."

Then Gerry says: "The word pivot used in this context means a joint in which movement is limited to rotation. You cannot "rotate" your fingertip. The Distal inter-phalangeal joint (the one at your finger tip) is a hinge joint, not a pivot joint.

Betty responds: The entire finger pivots after pressing and holding down the key with one finger tip - swing to the left or swing to the right at the point of contact. You can do this move with your feet also. If it were your body pivoting, your entire body would follow in the direction. The finger or the body turns as a unit.

Unfortunately you are not understanding what I mean, and your context is not the one I am using, as I did not mean or say that knuckle joints are pivoting in any way, neither are they opening and closing. The fingers are simply keeping their connection in a bent shape to form a piano hand - 5 units of fingers. Or, if you want to say it this way, 4 fingers and a thumb, and of course the thumb is not bent.

Betty clarifies: It is the finger tip on the key that is pivoting - swinging away from the center of the finger tip. The purpose of this movement is stated previously in another posting.

The "Hokey Pokey" has the pivot in it, by the way, do you remember ever doing this dance?
"First you put your two feet close up tight,
You sway them to the left, you sway them to the right....."

And we didn't need any bandaids to repair any injured fingers did we?

Betty Patnude

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#1191534 - 05/01/09 11:34 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
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You obviously don't understand what the word "pivot" means.

Pivoting refers to rotation. As I explained above, it is anatomically impossible for the fingertip or an entire finger to rotate.

If you mean something else then it would be helpful if you use another word as fingers CANNOT pivot.
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#1191559 - 05/02/09 01:09 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
C.Y. said: "?When I said moving the knuckles up and down, I meant using knuckles as a pivot and move fingers up and down."

Fingers pivot at the finger tips to turn in the direction (left or right) toward the next key.


From this response, I can tell you probably don't understand everything I said in this thread because of my poor English.

What I tried to describe is when playing in 5-finger position (the finger stays on the same key), how the fingers move down to press the key and lift up to release the key with curved fingers shape. It is done by using the knuckles as a pivot (or a hinge), just like what Kreisler said for the flatter fingers. (In his definition, the flatter fingers are called curved fingers.)
Like this one


Originally Posted By: Kreisler
A person playing with curved "healthy" fingers, would rely on support from the nail joint and movement from the knuckles (more like waving good-bye than making a fist.)


You said the following quote, but you didn't actually say what is the hand shape that you are suggesting.
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
There is no reason that a tension problem will result with the hand shape I'm suggesting.


From the following quote, it seems you are against the curved fingers like keyboardklutz. Does it mean the hand shape you are suggesting is the flatter fingers? It also seems you are suggesting the curved fingers could cause tension.
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
My point being, that I think many pianists wind up tapping the keys with limited finger motion because the curved hand position is designed to limit motion because we now play the finger from the top of the finger where we "see" it begin and that there is a tension in the hand and fingers because of this concept. Yes, this is needed in Baroque and Classical music where finger control is fingertips playing close to the keys and quickly. Dynamics? Some, from arm weight, but, nuances? Not with the fingers.


I am sorry if I misunderstood you and misquoted you in my previous posts.

Since now all the responses indicate the curved fingers shape is bad and none suports the curved fingers in PA books, should I consider changing my son's teacher who teachs the curved fingers in PA books?

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#1191568 - 05/02/09 01:28 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.

From the following quote, it seems you are against the curved fingers like keyboardklutz. Does it mean the hand shape you are suggesting is the flatter fingers? It also seems you are suggesting the curved fingers could cause tension.
This really is muddying the waters. We've had plenty of threads on the topic and seem to have an understanding that the relaxed hand has a natural curve (as descried by Chopin) so is called curved. The other is curled. If you want different nomenclature you'll have to find a greater authority than Chopin. And yes, I'd change teachers.
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#1191570 - 05/02/09 01:34 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
KS, your first leopold picture (fig 3 in his book) is actually entitled 'Faulty Position', so not much of a model to anyone.

The 45 degree angle to the floor is typical of the time and his playing, and would be considered extremely wrong nowadays for good reason.
I'm sorry KS, but that really is pathetic. You post Leopold's (one of the greatest authorities on violin playing of the 18th century) picture of how not to play the violin and say it's wrong! THAT'S THE POINT OF THE PICTURE!. Here is his 'correct' picture:
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#1191572 - 05/02/09 01:35 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Great posts Betty! I'm pretty much in whole hearted agreement with most! (I hope Kreisler isn't getting jealous)


frown
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#1191578 - 05/02/09 01:58 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
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#1191581 - 05/02/09 02:09 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: currawong]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: currawong

Different teachers can mean different things by their terminology. The important thing is that the teacher demonstrates to the student what they mean by the terminology so that there's no confusion. You could find out what a majority of teachers here mean by "curved fingers" but it still wouldn't tell you what any other individual teacher means.

It's worse. The majority of teachers who assume they mean the same thing may not, and people who assume they don't agree at all may actually play in much the same way.

I'd wager than anyone who attempts to correct technical problems by reading the advice given in such threads will, if *lucky*, be no *worse* off than before.
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#1191582 - 05/02/09 02:26 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.

How about those kids?
George Li
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGln8LFA8Qw

The problem is that you have to look at the whole body. I hate the tension I see in this kid's neck. It is not interfering with his playing, but he is heading for spinal problems. Some people get lucky and play a lifetime hunched like that and merely get—well, hunched. But posture is *terrible*. But he will be allowed to play that way because he is young and impressive.

Same thing with the neck. There is a lot of tension in that young body. My belief is that he will pay later.

The fact that these children play so impressively has nothing to do with what they are doing with their bodies, and you don't get young players to stop that unless you tell them why and HOW.

The other children are simply not in the same class as the ones I mentioned. Both may end up being absolutely first rate adult players with big careers, but they have already been trained to believe that holding that tension in the shoulders, back, etc. is necessary and somehow makes them better players, which is a crime.

And that's the big problem with all these discussions of hands. People stop looking at the rest of the body, so the fingers themsevles may be doing very effiecient and natural things, while the rest of the body is being destroyed. Worst case scenario comes about when you have see someone like Glenn Gould, who played like a god but who destroyed his body.


Edited by Gary D. (05/02/09 02:31 AM)
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#1191591 - 05/02/09 02:53 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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The drumkit teacher at school is quite famous. Has written drumkit tutors, an autobiography and worked with all the 'greats'. He has a pronounced 'stoop'! You're right Gary. I teach students how to sit, stand and walk. Here's something that needs re-making: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDjBsOkidek
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#1191603 - 05/02/09 04:18 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
I am not interested in the debate about which finger shape is proper for beginners. I am just wondering how teachers define curved fingers? Does it look like the figures in Piano adventures books or the one called curved fingers by keyboardklutz in that thread?


Originally Posted By: C.Y.
should I consider changing my son's teacher who teachs the curved fingers in PA books?


Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
And yes, I'd change teachers.





And now you're going to junk your boy's teacher because of what you read on a forum. Great stuff, Mom.

You guys are great, without ever seeing the kid or the teacher or anything ... you ought to start an internet course so that all the parents can put their kids under your expert direction.

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#1191605 - 05/02/09 04:40 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: landorrano]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Ask a silly question...

Though seriously, I would dump any teacher who does the 'hold a ball' thing.
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#1191636 - 05/02/09 06:32 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Kbk, as I understand it, you are giving advice on an instrument that you have not studied, and this is serious when you appear to be doing it as a teacher so that your word holds authority. My concern is for the reader. In this post:
the post you write:
Quote:
I learned to play the violin in the last few days.

That was written a bit over a week ago.

I have no interest in getting into a debate about violin technique with you. Nor am I an expert in such. I am more concerned about anyone reading the advice we find here. Previously you wrote about pictures of L. Mozart. You did not specify which. The most well known picture shows him crossing his feet at his ankles, leaning over to one side to some degree, his violin pointing down toward the floor at an angle. That was a common way of playing the violin at the time, and the music allowed for it. Which picture will the reader look up and find? Thank you for posting the pedagogical picture which shows better form.

The violin at the time of Mozart had a neck set at a different angle. The strings were gut strings and so were not as hard on the fingers and needed a different touch. Violinists of modern instruments going Baroque and wanting to play on period instruments have to relearn their touch and technique. The bow had a totally different construction and was therefore held and used differently. The written music rarely demanded shifts beyond third position, while modern music will have the violinist shift rapidly from a high position to low. This again has implications on form and technique.

That is still all book knowledge. The proper person to advise about violin technique is someone who has completed their studies under a competent teacher, and/or plays well, and/or is an experienced teacher. In the very least, as I do in every one of my posts, it should be stated "I am not a teacher of this instrument" or "I am still learning to play this instrument". In fact, if I go to a violin forum, my advice consists of four words, "Get a good teacher."

I am concerned about what people may be picking up from this board, and what will happen with that. Even if posted correctly with expertise and experience, it can be misunderstood. Caveat lector, of course. But in the least, we should make our backgrounds clear, for the sake of the reader.


Edited by keystring (05/02/09 06:34 AM)

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#1191644 - 05/02/09 06:41 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keystring Online   content
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CY and anyone - do not make decisions about your child's or your own teacher based on what you read on the Internet. If you do have concerns, consult with a live teacher who can observe the student first hand. Even if something posted here is correct, it can be misunderstood, or may not apply to a particular student in the way you think. If your child is doing well, enjoys his playing, is getting along with his teacher, seems to sound decent for his level, then maybe there is no problem. If there seems to be a problem many people do resort to the Internet to get extra information. It can be valuable if used judiciously.

Best wishes,

KS

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#1191658 - 05/02/09 08:08 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring

That is still all book knowledge. The proper person to advise about violin technique is someone who has completed their studies under a competent teacher, and/or plays well, and/or is an experienced teacher.
You'll have to point out where I 'advise' on violin playing, I must have missed that post. So far your only contribution has been a smattering of misinformation. Please save same for your violin forums!
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#1191663 - 05/02/09 08:29 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Terminology such as "smattering of misinformation" or "ridiculous" are great devices in debates because they set up inuendo and impressions. You win the debate.

As to where you advise - Mainly at the point where CY asks about the left hand of the violin. I refrained from answering, but then you did. The whole topic is ill advised.


Edited by keystring (05/02/09 08:53 AM)
Edit Reason: additional paragraph

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#1191664 - 05/02/09 08:31 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Let me say that my posting has been completely misunderstood by Gerry and by C.Y., if not by others.

I can't understand how someone can get so opposite to what I said.

I am saying very rounded knuckles - what we call in the US "curved fingers"....I don't use the word "curled".

Then from Antiquity, Baroque and Classical where the curved finger has it's advantages, we move to less and less curved until fingers are shaped pretty much in the natural way they hand at your sides, cupped palm, but you do not have to do anything to cup them, they are natural.

I can't waste my time posting when there is so much misinterpretation. I caution anyone from trying to make sense out of this topic and it's evolution.

I do know my posting was as good as I can do in this subject, but with a lot of non-teachers with little experience on the piano, it has been come a hopeless thread.

I also object to the inclusion of the violin techniques talked about as the holding of the violin has nothing to do with a piano hand.

This whole topic and it's direction is an embarrassment in the Piano Teacher's Forum.

I understand that interpreting langauge is a challenge, but if you know you have that challenge in the first place, perhaps the best and only recommendation is that the OP talk with the teacher at depth. This topic has not helped him.her it has confused someone moreso than originally.

I would erase my participation from this topic if I didn't feel I had done a good job of posting. I also think it's usually self-serving to remove a post in it's entirety - so I'll try to forget what I now think has been a very bad experience.

When searching for good information, consider the messenger and the message. If you are a novice, you are not going to know if it is good advice or bad advice you have received.

Betty Patnude


Edited by Betty Patnude (05/02/09 02:09 PM)
Edit Reason: type

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#1191680 - 05/02/09 09:11 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Kreisler Offline


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I would be interested in hearing what kind of imagery and exercises kbk uses with his students to develop a nice hand shape and strong bridge.
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#1191738 - 05/02/09 11:30 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: landorrano]
C.Y. Offline
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Originally Posted By: landorrano

And now you're going to junk your boy's teacher because of what you read on a forum. Great stuff, Mom.

You guys are great, without ever seeing the kid or the teacher or anything ... you ought to start an internet course so that all the parents can put their kids under your expert direction.


I was just kidding when I said changing teachers. I guess it's not funny and everyone thinks I was serious. I tried to edit my post to add a smiley or add "I am kidding" at the end, but somehow in this thread I don't see the edit button under my own post.
But thank you and keystring for your concerns. And by the way I am not a mom.

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#1191743 - 05/02/09 11:40 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
C.Y. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D
The other children are simply not in the same class as the ones I mentioned. Both may end up being absolutely first rate adult players with big careers, but they have already been trained to believe that holding that tension in the shoulders, back, etc. is necessary and somehow makes them better players, which is a crime.

And that's the big problem with all these discussions of hands. People stop looking at the rest of the body, so the fingers themsevles may be doing very effiecient and natural things, while the rest of the body is being destroyed. Worst case scenario comes about when you have see someone like Glenn Gould, who played like a god but who destroyed his body.


Charlie Liu and Anna Larsen's video clip was recorded when they were still 5 or 6 years old. Now they are pretty good, actually both of them and Derek Wang played with youtube symphony in New York.

The last girl is pretty good for her age too, right? My son just learned the same piece (Clementi sonatina) as she played and he is not quite there yet.

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#1191750 - 05/02/09 11:49 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
C.Y. Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

I am saying very rounded knuckles - what we call in the US "curved fingers"....I don't use the word "curled".

Then from Antiquity, Baroque and Classical where the curved finger has it's advantages, we move to less and less curved until fingers are shaped pretty much in the natural way they hand at your sides, cupped palm, but you do not have to do anything to cup them, they are natural.


Now I understand you, so basically we are talking about the same shape as far as curved fingers (or rounded shape) go.

I am sorry that I didn't understand you before. Please excuse my poor English.

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#1191755 - 05/02/09 11:57 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
I would be interested in hearing what kind of imagery and exercises kbk uses with his students to develop a nice hand shape and strong bridge.
Now you're talking! My pupils live in the inner-city and are mostly surrounded by ugliness either through the media or around them. Do you know what they have in front of their noses all day long that's beautiful? Their hands! But not the hands with fingers their silly brains manipulate. Not the misshapen silliness you see on the end of most pianists arms, NO! Nature only makes beauty, it's not just its default, it's all it can do. Like flowers, trees, even clouds, hands are made by nature and share in that beauty. Look down at 100% relaxed hands and you see beauty. My students do and for most of them it's their very first experience of beauty. And are they grateful? You bet. Is that imagery? Is that exercise? No, it's reality.
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#1191790 - 05/02/09 01:09 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.


Charlie Liu and Anna Larsen's video clip was recorded when they were still 5 or 6 years old. Now they are pretty good, actually both of them and Derek Wang played with youtube symphony in New York.

I was not criticizing the playing of any of these kids, but I take the hand positions and overall technique less seriously when students are not yet playing at a very high level.

I am NOT saying that hand positions and all the rest is not important in the beginning. What I am saying is that people who still have obvious technical problems are not going to look the same as people who are playing on a very high level, no matter what their age, so *when* people are playing very well, if they show signs of serious tension in the body, it should be a huge warning sign.

I'm also saying that most teachers ignore tension in parts of the body that are actually dangerous.
Quote:

The last girl is pretty good for her age too, right? My son just learned the same piece (Clementi sonatina) as she played and he is not quite there yet.

They are all good for their age. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about things that players do that limit what they will be able to do in the future. This is an incredibly complicated matter and not something that is solved by discussing what people look like when they play—in a forum such as this one.


Edited by Gary D. (05/02/09 01:11 PM)
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#1191863 - 05/02/09 03:07 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
landorrano Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
My pupils live in the inner-city and are mostly surrounded by ugliness either through the media or around them. Do you know what they have in front of their noses all day long that's beautiful? Their hands! But not the hands with fingers their silly brains manipulate. Not the misshapen silliness you see on the end of most pianists arms, NO! Nature only makes beauty, it's not just its default, it's all it can do. Like flowers, trees, even clouds, hands are made by nature and share in that beauty. Look down at 100% relaxed hands and you see beauty. My students do and for most of them it's their very first experience of beauty. And are they grateful? You bet. Is that imagery? Is that exercise? No, it's reality.


I find myself obliged to respond. I find yours a strange point of view. If you really believe that you give your students their first experience of beauty, then you have nothing but contempt for their families, their friends, their culture ... for your students themselves, really. You use them to give a moralistic, self-praise response to Kreisler's question.

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#1191880 - 05/02/09 03:29 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: landorrano]
keyboardklutz Offline
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landorrano, by focusing on my belief you're missing the point of my students' experience.
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#1191903 - 05/02/09 03:57 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
landorrano Offline
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No, you are focusing on you. It's shameful how you use them to try to puff yourself up.

I'm out of this absurd discussion.

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#1191905 - 05/02/09 04:02 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: landorrano]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Shameful?? Jeez, I've been called a lot of things on these forums but that's an interesting one.
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#1191912 - 05/02/09 04:13 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Let me say that my posting has been completely misunderstood by Gerry and by C.Y., if not by others.

I can't understand how someone can get so opposite to what I said.


I didn't misunderstand anything. I was simply pointing out that your use of the word "Pivot" was incorrect as it is anatomically impossible for finger tips or whole fingers to pivot.

It's not a matter of opinion or misunderstanding on my part. It was an error on your part.

Nothing more to it than that.
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#1191922 - 05/02/09 04:26 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
C.Y. Offline
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keyboardklutz,
Do you have any comments about those video clips I posted? Could you post some of your students' video clips too?

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#1191935 - 05/02/09 04:49 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
keyboardklutz,
Do you have any comments about those video clips I posted? Could you post some of your students' video clips too?
Derek and Annie more or less curved, the others curled, but it is no where near that simple. All the pieces you chose call for curled fingers. Yes, they can be played curved, but that's not what they are about. I have yet to have a student I trust enough to allow them to curl for the appropriate piece. As wonderful as Bach and Mozart is, I'd ban it till students know what they're doing so can't harm themselves. Music made for a relaxed hand is Chopin and after, and that is the ideal child diet.

That Derek, as Gary said, is heading for serious trouble. I haven't filmed any students, may do when I get it together.
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#1192078 - 05/02/09 07:43 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline


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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
As wonderful as Bach and Mozart is, I'd ban it till students know what they're doing so can't harm themselves. Music made for a relaxed hand is Chopin and after, and that is the ideal child diet.


If this were true, every Suzuki student would develop tendinitis, and every student in RCM or ABRSM would be endangered by List A.

If cooks followed your philosophy, they'd never be able to make an omelette for fear of cracking the shells.
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#1192196 - 05/02/09 10:56 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
C.Y. Offline
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keyboardklutz,
Please post some video clips of your beginner students play Chopin. You are either the greatest piano teacher in the world or the craziest one.

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#1192206 - 05/02/09 11:18 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
Gary D. Offline
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The reason why I left this forum for awhile and have been thinking about doing it again is that people make simple things so hard, then they take really hard things and present them as if they are simple.

To me the whole subject of being relaxed at the piano is the proverbial elephant in the room, but people insist on focusing on young talent to show how to take care of the body and how to play with the least effort.

That is insane. If you want to see how to play, watch people who so old that they don't look like they should be able to play any more.

Here is just one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK7bHaBWPV4

I don't care much about the hands. I do, but what tells me that this is important is the body combined with the sound. I believe by the time this was filmed Rubenstein's vision had deteriorated to the point that he either had trouble reading books or no long could at all.

Look at his head, neck and shoulders. I've never seen less tension. And he barely moves. It looks as if he cares about nothing so much as being completely at ease.

If anyone tries to copy his exact hand positions or precise degree of curvature in the fingers, s/he will just do her/himself damage. This is where people go wrong.

It doesn't happen that way. The hands do the right thing because players learn to listen to themselves, really listen, and then they are either given guidance in how to play even better by improving their physical habits, or they discover it by accident.

I think in almost all cases it is a combination of self-discovery and guidance.

I agree with kbk in one respect: I think there is some danger of young or inexperienced students getting into more trouble with Bach, but not because the finger action required but rather because the focus is so often almost evenly split between passage work in both hands. The *mental* strain of trying to make all the happen can cause the whole body to get very tight.

I don't feel the same way about Mozart, because Mozart in a way is much more like Chopin, tending to focus passage work in one hand while the other does something different and often much easier. (You could argue that things such as the Alberti bass patterns might cause added tension, but I think that is less important.)

The *real* damage done is in expecting too much polish too soon, not giving young or developing players time to assimilate new movements and internalize them so that the body is not fighting the brain, so to speak.


Edited by Gary D. (05/02/09 11:50 PM)
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#1192226 - 05/03/09 12:28 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Gary,

This posting is among your very best that I've read.

The learning life of a person who is becoming a pianist or musician is very long, and yet we expect such accomplishments in our young students to launch early. They lack the depth of time and experience but we want finessed touches and technique from them.

With the crop of kids in the last few decades they are already juggling with many activities and a instant gratification hunger so they lack the concentration periods and going within ability with which to make music. I think piano playing is on the surface, and it's become all about what they want to play for lessons and having fun.

I get piano students launched quickly by giving them lots of information, structured information, nifty assignments, and praise for the simplest of things, and encourage them on the harder things. I let them play the way it comes out of their young neurological system as long as it's accurate, and according to their developmental level to comply we talk about improving - which is not about accuracy, it's about touch, tone and technique when it is needed to enhance the finished product.

I start with the handshape that I described earlier in the topic because it is better to use a hand shape with finger tips pointing downward than to cope with splayed and tense fingers that are extended to different lengths. Here the idea is for all fingers to be as equal in length as possible, and then are because of the pencil upon which the "owls" sit on a branch. (Earlier part of the topic).

When you talk about elders who have lived their lives in music and the body they now accomodate, this is pretty interesting. I don't think I've given it much thought before, and I'm just getting started on it thanks to your comment.

I'm listing what comes to mind:
It's about managing what you have to play with:
Young are new to it, adventure, challenging, hard to do because of the size of the body; old are happy maybe even longing to play, they have arrived in music, there is nothing to upset them in the music, but there might be from the body, older is more tolerant, unhurried. Young has anticipation and struggle with an active mind, old has experienced calmness, and the quieter mind.

Posture is there in our bones - how do we hang from them? How do we wear them? At some point, the artistry - interpretation, expressiveness, we try to "paint" with our bodies, the gestures are needed.

When kbk says do Chopin first, I say it's early music composers who wrote for teaching purposes, then Clementi, Mozart, Bach - the faster, quicker composers, and then for our secondary (advanced) years in music the hand and heart being softened over time, the Brahms, Chopin, the black key composers with the restive open, melting hands.

The music choices I'm making about these composers are due to the capacity of the player at these times in their lives, even as much as it also relates to the evolution of the piano, and the composers styles in chronological order.

I think you are on to something when you say "too much polish too soon, not giving young or developing players time to assimilate new movements and internalize them", but my agreement with you ends a little differently as another thought added to yours, and that would be because of the element of time contributing to ones maturity, live experience, patience, place in life, an attunement with ones world.

Thank you for sharing your perceptions.

Betty Patnude

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#1192264 - 05/03/09 01:41 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: C.Y.
keyboardklutz,
Please post some video clips of your beginner students play Chopin. You are either the greatest piano teacher in the world or the craziest one.
Can't I be both? My teacher was the former (or one of them anyway - http://www.youtube.com/isstip ).
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#1192268 - 05/03/09 01:47 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
As wonderful as Bach and Mozart is, I'd ban it till students know what they're doing so can't harm themselves. Music made for a relaxed hand is Chopin and after, and that is the ideal child diet.


If this were true, every Suzuki student would develop tendinitis, and every student in RCM or ABRSM would be endangered by List A.

If cooks followed your philosophy, they'd never be able to make an omelette for fear of cracking the shells.
Wrong again! You really need to go back and redo that Ph.D. of yours. Playing the piano is not just about not getting tendonitis! It's about the piano playing you - the play on the nervous system. Using a curled technique, even to a limited degree, decreases the mind's proprioceptive sensitivity by overwhelming it with unwished for sensation. You want your students to feel as well as hear they are playing! In fact for children (and dare I say to a great extent myself as well) that's where the fun is. Cooks in your philosophy would never feel themselves beating the egg! Ask a cook how important feelings-of-texture is to their work.
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#1192277 - 05/03/09 02:00 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

I start with the handshape that I described earlier in the topic because it is better to use a hand shape with finger tips pointing downward than to cope with splayed and tense fingers that are extended to different lengths. Here the idea is for all fingers to be as equal in length as possible, and then are because of the pencil upon which the "owls" sit on a branch. (Earlier part of the topic).
This is the big elephant between us Betty. You are delivering a beginner technique from the 18th century. Your students will neither see beautiful hands nor feel them.
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#1192292 - 05/03/09 02:26 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Gary D. Offline
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Betty,

This is in answer to you, but also for anyone else who is interested. I wanted this to be shorter. frown

My whole way of teaching reflects my personal experience, and as a young player, I was highly successful at just about everything except one thing: I was horribly tense.

My last and best teacher wanted me to move straight on into a second degree at the Cincinatti Conservatory. He believe I had "the right stuff" for the contest world. So I had the connections. I had a ready "in". I had no money left (with undergraduate loans to pay off), but I realize now that this did not need to be an insurmountable obstacle. My fear of failing and dislike of the competition world combined to make me choose another path.

Every teacher I worked with said that my one weakness was tension. I even had a couple of unoffical mentors who tried to work out my tension problems. I was playing huge things, really demanding large works. I was playing, for instance, the Scriabin 5th Sonata, the Chopin Bb Minor Sonata and Pictures at an Exhibtion, and I was quite successful with all of them. I was especially successful with Pictures and performed the full set on through my 20s. But the tension remained. I had migraines, and it was not until much later in life that I realized they started roughly the time I started playing well. I have a permanently screwed up neck. Because of damage I did to my body, I really shouldn't be able to play now.

At about age 30 I reached the point that I no longer cared how well I played. I just wanted to get rid of the tension. Before that I was so intense about power, speed, passion, a huge dynamic range, communicating the feelings I had inside when playing that I never gave my body the chance to learn how to do all these things naturally. So I gave up, really, decided enough was enough, and planned never to play again.

But I was still teaching, and I needed to continue playing well enough to demonstrate anything that I was teaching. So I made a deal with myself. I decided that if I could only play half as well, with more mistakes, less power, less speed, certainly less passion, I would accept the losses just to get rid of the tension.

And that's when everything fell into place for me. I never tried to pull it off in public, because I've always feared that the pressure, the need to be accurate (at all costs) in public situation, might bring me right back to that tension. However, I continue to demonstrate even the most difficult passages to students, and I actually play much better. I could not solve the tension problem with a change in hand position. I know that seems to work well for other people, but my tension was starting from the shoulders and neck, then running right down into my arms, wrists and hands. It was when I completely stopped worrying about things like hand shape that my hands started forming shapes that worked. So when I am showing people what works for me, I demonstrate with very short passages from perhaps a dozen different periods and styles, showing that my hands and fingers adapt to each one. Then I tell my students NOT to worry exactly how this is going to happen, because it's *my* job to watch them carefully and catch things that might seem logical or natural but that are going to glitch.

So I don't speak about curvature, ever, in the way the rest of you do. I watch. I move the hands in, out, adjust the seat up, down, adjust the elbows so that they are not locked in or locked out, make little wrist adjustments so that the wrists are not moving more than they need to but are never rigid, and so on. I am demonstrating in every lesson, but over the years I have seen clearly that in order to reach this magic level of relaxation that just "happens", students have to adjust to their own hands, and they do NOT all work the same. To assume that a degree of curvature or anything else along that line is going to be almost exactly the same for each student means that sooner or later tremendous damage is going to be done to someone.

I have in my mind forever a clear memory of Edward Kilenyi playing at FSU, where I did my undergraduate work. Most people today do not know who he was. He played with the straightest fingers I've ever seen, much straighter-looking than Horowitz (whom he knew), and he played with the most wrist rotation of any pianist I've ever seen. When he played, it looked as if he shook the music out of his wrists, out of his sleeves. He had all 48 preludes and fugues of the WTC memorized, all the Beethoven sonatas, and on, and on, and on. Trick memory. He did not practice much and was shaky in public, but that had nothing to do with technical weaknesses. In repertoire classes he played with such astonishing ease, it was just enough to make any normal player want to give up. Oh, he had all the Chopin Etudes nailed. In Pictures I struggled most with Ballet of the Chicks in their Shells, and he once told me, with a wink, my chicks had teeth. (Tension kept me from playing the notes lightly.)

Now, Kilenyi played NOTHING like Horowitz, who played NOTHING like Rubenstein, but what he had in common with these other masters was that on a good day he had a touch and a style that were so unusual, you would never think he played like anyone else. And all with utter ease.

So that's where I come from. I just watch and watch and watch. I watch from the first lessons. If I work on a scale, first I give the student the scale and watch what happens. THEN, if I see anything I can improve, I begin tweaking something.

This watching and reacting, instinctively, to exactly what is happening at the moment is what we can't communicate in this forum. I simply trust my own instincts as to whether or not I'm seeing something that is going to inhibit. That's where I went wrong. I didn't have anyone to do that for me, when I was young, and although all the people who told me I was tense were right, and all of them played with far greater relaxation, some incredibly relaxed, I could not get it in my own body by emulating them. When I finally acheived what other people already could do, when people told me that I looked right, when I told them HOW I got there, they all told me that my path did not make sense to them. I would talk about playing from the knuckles, allowing my fingers to fly, rotation techniques (most noticeable in the average player in tremolo), REDUCING motion to become MORE relaxed, and so on. I'll bet none of this sounds valid in writing. I can show people what I'm talking about, in a heartbeat, but that involves being there and going far beyond words.

g


Edited by Gary D. (05/03/09 02:31 AM)
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#1192295 - 05/03/09 02:53 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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100% on the button. Now if your piano teachers could just give you back that 30 years...
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#1192342 - 05/03/09 06:48 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
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Loc: Iowa City, IA
I do much the same as Gary, preferring to watch and tweak instead of trying to force some kind of preventive medicine down student's throats. It's been my experience that students will naturally do what is right about 90% of the time, and fussing too much is just as likely to erode the good 90% as it is to remedy the deficient 10%.

The few exercises I do with students are taken from Matthay and Taubman, specifically Matthay's focus on tactile feedback from the key and his ideas on the role of the arm and hand in the production of sound. (Taubman's approach is more or less the same, and she has a few basic exercises that can help students understand how to accomplish these things.)
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#1192348 - 05/03/09 07:07 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keystring Online   content
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Quote:
I let them play the way it comes out of their young neurological system as long as it's accurate, and according to their developmental level to comply we talk about improving - which is not about accuracy, it's about touch, tone and technique when it is needed to enhance the finished product.

This is the problem with Internet teaching. This is not addressed to you, Betty, btw. What if what the student is doing in a certain area is natural and right? And that gets interfered with when his playing is neither seen nor heard based on the knowledge of what many students (but maybe not this one) usually do? Or what if this student is overly curved, and is taught curvature - or overly relaxed to the point of almost limpness, and then goes over toward limpness because "relaxation" is pushed by an unseeing and unhearing teacher? And would this happen between the same student and teacher in a live lesson?

And then, in extreme scenarios, if some few teachers are blindly and rigidly pedantic about rules and procedures that every student is to follow in the same way, and if some students start by having something right and a feeling for some of the elements of playing - Then the image that has come to me more than once is that of breaking the legs, providing artificial legs, a cerebrally learned replacement of what was once natural, and a disconnection of the self from the body and the music. And then, to add insult to injury, the student is to be grateful for his artificial wooden legs and robotic outwardly controlled playing. Not that following his instincts alone would to the trick either. There is a delicate balance.

When it comes to Internet learning, the responsibility belongs to the student. He or she should be aware that teachers are not omniscient gods - especially anyone who presents himself that way - nor can the teacher know what it is that you will do with the information. In a live lesson a teacher can preach relaxation, watch his student make like a rag doll, and then suppressing a giggle say, "My dear child, I did not mean that relaxed!" On the Net you might get a perpetual rag doll wondering why the sound is now so weak. Be careful, people!

Teachers might also be well advised to know that you may be perceived as .... er ... omniscient gods. Anything you say may be taken as gospel and followed religiously: imagery is intentional.

I would not be without the Internet, and have learned many things during my year or so here. What is presented here can be used in a good way or a bad way. Sometimes only part of the message comes across, and sometimes there is a clue to something else. We just have to be wise about it.

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#1192349 - 05/03/09 07:18 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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KS, you left out your "I am not a teacher of this instrument" or "I am still learning to play this instrument" caveat. Maybe it'd make a good tag line?
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#1192370 - 05/03/09 08:28 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Your statement has nothing to do with what I wrote and as such is incomprehensible. If it's a put-down, perhaps it should be worded honestly. Believe it or not, I have approached you with respect at all times, and have also tried to learn from what you present. I cannot fathom your attitude, let alone respond to it.

My post this morning is clearly a student perspective on Internet learning, and was presented as such. If there is something you agree or disagree with, why not address it?

KS


Edited by keystring (05/03/09 10:16 AM)
Edit Reason: removed superfluous word

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#1192399 - 05/03/09 09:58 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Ok, I've gone back to my post, and see that I write about Internet teaching. I was honestly thinking of the student side of it, and not trying to tell anyone how to teach. Some of the experiences that I had as a student a number of years ago were not pleasant, and I have thought a lot about this. Since I am a teacher, it is natural for me to look at the other side of it too, and my thoughts have a way of coming out in writing at times. I did not intend to tell anyone how to teach, or reflect on any individual's teaching in what I wrote. If it came across that way, then I apologize.

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#1192444 - 05/03/09 11:28 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Since I am a teacher,
I don't want to sound rude, but when did that happen? As far as I remember you last mentioned you've either got or are working toward grade 1.
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#1192471 - 05/03/09 12:23 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Quote:
I don't want to sound rude, but when did that happen? As far as I remember you last mentioned you've either got or are working toward grade 1.

I did not say I am a music teacher. I wrote that the teaching aspect tends to also grab my attention, because I am a teacher - my thoughts slip out in my vocabulary and perhaps I should be more careful with that. In regards to my teaching background, I have a B.Ed, earned my teaching certificate, have extra credentials in second language learning and LD teaching. I have taught in the public school system and one-on-one. Before choosing homeschooling for 8 - 10 years for my sons, and during, I also looked at various approaches, visited schools, talked to teachers, and observed. For this reason the teaching issues here interest me greatly, and apparently that interest has a way of slipping out. As I wrote before, I did not intend to offend, nor to offer advice.

Re: grade 1 - my practical exam was grade 1, but that is not the final grade that I studied. Because I suffered an injury my progress went rather haywire. I'm told that I am "at least at a gr. 6 level" though I would think, with holes because of history. I have no idea where I might be on piano: probably all over the place and nowhere in particular. I cannot presently access teaching, to my great regret.

In terms of theory, I passed the Advanced gr. 2 rudiments (RCM) and have begun harmony theory. That does not mean that I feel expert in the subjects that I have passed.

I do, however, regularly teach rudimentary theory to one student, and have done so for the past 8 or so months. The alternative for this student would be no teacher, and trying to figure it out alone. I am using the same text which I studied under the auspices of my teacher, and have created additional material. I do this on a volunteer basis in order to gain some experience in teaching theory, and as a way of consolidating what I have learned.

This is far removed from "definition of curved fingers" but I suppose I should answer the question.


Edited by keystring (05/03/09 12:26 PM)

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#1192492 - 05/03/09 12:57 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Teachers might also be well advised to know that you may be perceived as .... er ... omniscient gods. Anything you say may be taken as gospel and followed religiously: imagery is intentional.
Well, I must be honest, I don't think grade 1 students have any place telling teachers in a piano teacher's forum what they might or might not be 'well advised to know' and have personally grown very tired of dictat after dictat from someone in no place whatsoever to 'know' themselves.
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#1192503 - 05/03/09 01:10 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keystring Online   content
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Will you necessarily know how someone using the Internet in the privacy of their home will take what you have posted? There is no way of observing reaction. If I were in that situation I would welcome feedback in that area. The vocabulary, "well advised" was probably not the best - but trying to let you know that you might be on a pedestal of omniscience was an honest attempt.

Again, as above, I am not a grade 1 student.

So, as I understand it, you think I am telling you what to do as a teacher. That was not my intent. I do have a concern with how students might receive what is posted on the net, and am cautious about it myself in my role as student. That was my main thought.


Edited by keystring (05/03/09 01:12 PM)

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#1192505 - 05/03/09 01:16 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
That was not my intent. I do have a concern with how students might receive what is posted on the net,
None of your business, you haven't the knowledge base, that's the teachers' concern. Is there a name for 'forum vigilante'? That crap has also run its course. How many times can a poster cry wolf for chrissake?
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#1192507 - 05/03/09 01:22 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
sotto voce Offline
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Keystring has never misrepresented her background, qualifications or experience here. I have high regard for her contributions; even if she's not a piano teacher, her insight and perspective are remarkable.

Maybe it's time for another debate about whether participation by non-teachers is valued—or even welcomed at all—in this subforum.

Steven
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#1192510 - 05/03/09 01:26 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: sotto voce]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Keystring has never misrepresented her background, qualifications or experience here. I have high regard for her contributions; even if she's not a piano teacher, her insight and perspective are remarkable.
One person's treasure, another person's trash. Fair dues.
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#1192514 - 05/03/09 01:29 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
sotto voce Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Keystring has never misrepresented her background, qualifications or experience here. I have high regard for her contributions; even if she's not a piano teacher, her insight and perspective are remarkable.
One person's treasure, another person's trash. Fair dues.

That's right, and the fairness of that dictum is that it applies to all of us equally.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
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Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1192517 - 05/03/09 01:34 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: sotto voce]
keyboardklutz Offline
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As far as I'm aware my 'comments in no way reflect the opinions or views of Piano Teacher's Forum'.
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#1192518 - 05/03/09 01:38 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
keystring Online   content
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This topic is too important to start going ad hominem. I request that we go back on topic.

Best wishes to all,

KS

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#1192519 - 05/03/09 01:40 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
Kreisler Offline


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The title of the forum suggests topics, not participation requirements.
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#1192532 - 05/03/09 01:58 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Since I am a teacher,
Could we at least have the requirement that declaring yourself a teacher actually means piano teacher (at least in the piano teachers forum)? It's just I feel concerned the student readers will be misled into damaging ways!

Come on Kreisler, Yes we can!

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#1192540 - 05/03/09 02:21 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Betty Patnude Offline
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Oh, my goodness! It's getting to be feisty!

Yes, it is often problematic to me to have anyone but a teacher in the mix in the piano teacher's forum. My main interest is to co-mingle with piano teachers, as you might expect. My secondary interest is to contribute to things that pianists and learning pianists might be discussing. Both of these things are within my preparations in music teaching.

I have benefitted very much from keystrings presence in the forum, and I think many other people have, too. At the same time some of the things we've been involved with together are over the level that she is at in her piano studies, but that doesn't matter to her, she is a curious and conscientious learner. I appreciate that very much.

At the same time, sometimes we get into little "rambles, push and shoves" in the piano teaching forum because of someone posting who doesn't have a clue as to what is being said, has an agenda themselves, and just enters to put teachers in the corner, so to speak. I think overall there is a lack of respect toward teachers in the forum, so many are quick to make an insult, or to tell you that you are wrong, wrong, wrong. And, then you discover this person is in their Adult 1 book, or maybe has had lessons for a few months. That has been my experience for the past month or two. To be told off, insulted, or laughed at is not any of our dream come true.

There are a few teachers posting who I think need more training, and there are some teaching with very little training, admit it, and do it anyway, saying how much they are earning while offering only a specter of services. If money were my basic interest I could do that too. However, I believe in music education, and that is a different story.

The older, experienced piano teachers on the forum really seem to have pride and accomplishment as their highest agenda - things transpire in their studios for the highest good of all.

When I, and teachers like myself, get caught up in this under current, we are not able to communicate with our teaching associates without it being misunderstood and being offensive to others. When we take a stand and say what we think, we think we are good good, reliable advice. We say the things no one wants to hear.

Intelligence is needed on the piano teachers forum - it is the place we speak from. If it sounds like a foreign language sometimes, it is.

Keystring has a tempered presence and she is the first to thank and respect the people who add to her knowledge. She also is persistent in coming to a conclusion on a topic. As she says, it's how she approaches things, and I think she becomes content when there has been agreement and information shared in topics.

The harder situation to post in is the one where there is difference of opinion that has come to push and shove. There have been several topics which I just have to walk away from, but not without saying so. There is hope where intelligence is present, ignorance does the exact opposite.

Keystring did post about consider your sources carefully, and I join in that warning. There is a lot of information out there which just plain misleads and defeats us.

If you don't want to be a sucker, you are going to have to eliminate the jokesters, the ignorami, the irritating, and the pontificates who want to rip off a piece of your mind and impede your progress.

Tolerance? Acceptance? Or time to vote with your feet?

I've faced that decision more than once.

PS: Do I have any friends left?

Betty Patnude

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#1192547 - 05/03/09 02:30 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

PS: Do I have any friends left?
I'll always give you a hug!
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#1192580 - 05/03/09 03:30 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Monica K. Offline

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Registered: 08/10/05
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Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Yes, it is often problematic to me to have anyone but a teacher in the mix in the piano teacher's forum...

If you don't want to be a sucker, you are going to have to eliminate the jokesters, the ignorami, the irritating, and the pontificates who want to rip off a piece of your mind and impede your progress.

Tolerance? Acceptance? Or time to vote with your feet?

I've faced that decision more than once.

PS: Do I have any friends left?

Betty Patnude


Who gets to decide who is irritating, Betty? smokin

The question of who is "allowed" to post in the teacher's forum has been debated several times. The last time it was debated, IIRC, the owner of this forum weighed in and said that the teacher's forum is open to everybody. This conclusion, incidentally, was consistent with the sentiment of the vast majority of teachers who post regularly on the forum. I don't see any need to revisit it simply because Betty would prefer to toss out everybody except teachers. Oh, wait, she wants to throw out teachers who don't meet her training requirements, too.

This is an internet forum that is literally open to the entire world. As long as people adhere to the forum rules, which imo everybody posting on this thread has done thus far, you can't prevent people from posting.
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#1192724 - 05/03/09 06:51 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Monica K.]
Betty Patnude Offline
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I must admit that people consider me irritating from time to time - but it's always for a good reason in my mind that I am irritating. Irritating is not part of my personality by the way, it's part of what I say that no one wants to hear or deal with.

The piano teachers forum gets diverted by the freedom of anyone wanting to post anywhere. Instead of having topics that are of interest mainly among ourselves, we get demolished by questions that people in general ask of us, but answering those questions is a big effort because the same question comes back, give it a few days.

Everyone likes us as a resource to an important question they have, but the answers are in their own teachers, or in the book, too.

No one likes to have a correction made, or a comment that is well understood by a teacher, degenerated by a learner who thinks he's qualified to enter into a teaching discussion among teachers.

Don't you have a teacher's room on campus and student's don't frequent it? Of is that just in elementary school and junior high from days gone by? Do any visitors on campus come through your private space? Do the students collect there? Who goes in the teachers room, or the teachers bathroom. Is there any unspoken rule to that, or do you have a sign on the door?

In deciding who is irritating I only look at the examples of their path through PWF and the most concern goes to those who interact with me. Monica, you would be at the top of my list.

No sooner do I say my opinion, and there you are, picking on points that I have made and dissecting the hell out of it. And, as soon as you are done, along comes another person who does the same. You work in teams! Do I find that irritating...you betcha.

I have high expectations for piano teachers to do excellent work - if you are not a good pianist - you are not going to have much to teach. Every body and their brother are teaching piano for extra income but what I expect from that is that they will grow in knowledge, self discovery, and abilities and be able to become the best teacher they know how to be. In some postings, it is clear when someone does not have the strengths of a piano teacher - it is even more clear when situations they describe are not being handled according to professional standards - this all counts in our industry. I'm irritated when someone dons the title of piano teacher and then does the minimum of being one.

I know lots of piano teachers who study constantly to learn how to teach - learn about the brains capacity and order - learn how to work with special needs - whatever it takes to meet the needs of our students. Reading, meetings, ambition.

I'd like the piano teachers forum to reflect those kinds of things, and sometimes it does. But we constantly get interrupted, and a topic goes sideways before vering off totally.

Monica, I consider your post part of a long series of expressing your disdain for me. This is again one of those opportunities for you. I am as calm as a cucumber while writing this by the way, it has nothing to do anger. It is explanatory in purpose and defensive in nature. Pointed irritation.

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#1192727 - 05/03/09 07:15 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
currawong Offline
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Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5837
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
The piano teachers forum gets diverted by the freedom of anyone wanting to post anywhere. Instead of having topics that are of interest mainly among ourselves, we get demolished by questions that people in general ask of us, but answering those questions is a big effort because the same question comes back, give it a few days.

There is no obligation on any of us to answer questions. We don't need to wear ourselves out by trying to do this. If you find it too much, simply ignore the question.
Originally Posted By: Betty

Don't you have a teacher's room on campus and student's don't frequent it? Of is that just in elementary school and junior high from days gone by? Do any visitors on campus come through your private space? Do the students collect there? Who goes in the teachers room, or the teachers bathroom. Is there any unspoken rule to that, or do you have a sign on the door?

This is not a private space. Anyone in the whole world can read it, and anyone who is registered can post here. If the forum rules are being broken then report the post to the moderator. If a post annoys you, you are free to ignore it. In fact, if a poster annoys you, you are free to put them on your "ignore" list.
Originally Posted By: Betty
No sooner do I say my opinion, and there you are, picking on points that I have made and dissecting the hell out of it. And, as soon as you are done, along comes another person who does the same. You work in teams! Do I find that irritating...you betcha.

If you feel you are being unfairly targeted, then again, report the post to the moderator.
Originally Posted By: Betty
I'd like the piano teachers forum to reflect those kinds of things, and sometimes it does. But we constantly get interrupted, and a topic goes sideways before vering off totally.

Not only the teachers' forum, Betty smile Have you spent much time in the pianists' corner? And as for "interruptions" - well, once again, any member is free to post. You can't really have an "interruption" in this forum format can you? These aren't private conversations.

I suppose the main point I wanted to make is that we can't change the rules as they now stand (I personally don't want to, but that's beside the point) - but we also don't have to make a rod for our own backs by feeling obliged to deal with every question that comes up.
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#1192728 - 05/03/09 07:15 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Ebony and Ivory Offline
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Registered: 02/14/05
Posts: 1179
Loc: Minnesota
I have to say that of all the forums in which I participate, this one has BY FAR the most sensitive, judgmental, and ornery people.

Seriously? What does ANY of this have to do with C.Y.'s question?

Just because one is a piano teacher it does not mean they know everything there is to know about it! That's exactly why people come here, isn't it? To get help/opinions/ideas from other people? Just because we ask a question that seems obvious to some, doesn't mean we are "inexperienced" piano teachers. Just that we have run out of ideas.

Where is the harm in letting students participate? Everyone has something to offer, we don't know which answer is going to help the original poster. A piano student could very well be a master in something else that can correlate and help too.

It is really annoying to try to read the posts and the answers when there is so much "I'm right, you're wrong" going on.

Can't we please just stick to answering the questions at hand, and not pretend we know more than the other guy does??
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#1192903 - 05/04/09 03:01 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4650
Loc: South Florida
(This is not a response to kbk. The current set-up automatically is linking to him.)

Let me sum up my own points, in the hope that somehow this derailed thread will get "back on track".

There is absolutely no way to know, for sure, which teachers know what they are talking about, and which do not, and parents looking for a good teacher will always need a good bit of luck along with some very good advice to choose a teacher wisely for their children. The same is true of adults choosing teachers for themselves.

When we look at vidoes of young prodigies, it is easy to be impressed by the fact that they sound good. It is easy to discount minor weaknesses in their performances and simply attribute them to youth. In some cases weaknesses are indeed reflections of a "work in progress" and will be taken care of. In other cases, we are already looking at fatal flaws that will magnify over time and may cut a potential playing career short due to physical injury.

Some people play with glaring physical problems and yet have long careers because they are exceedingly lucky. They just have good genes. For instance, we can look at Richter and assume that his physical habits are what made him a colosal virtuose, a true titan, and when a human being can produce the results he got, it is pretty hard to do anything but just watch and listen, open-jawed, and figure that if we could just play as he did, we too might sound like him.

But I think Richter is a bit like a very old man who, when asked the secret of his longevity, answered: "Two packs of cigarettes and a fifth of whisky each day."

Before anyone even thinks I may be saying anything negative about Richter, the player, I'm not. But I think that anyone who tries to play the way he played would destroy his body. Gould? Even more so. I think that about half of the greatest pianists around play *in spite* of some very bad habits, not because of them. Or at the very least, they have personal habits or quirks that work for them, as individuals but that would not work for anyone else. We all know about how many young pianists ruined themselves trying to imitate Horowitz, and I'm totally convinced nothing in Horowitz's playing did anything to harm him, personally. Now think about people imitating Lazar Berman, who already looked like a hunch-back as a fairly young man. Think of any of innumerable young artists immitating any number of players who sound great but play with contortions. To me this is terribly frightening.

In a thread like this we are concerned about what will enable young players to play very well, now, but we should be even more concerned about what the habits they are absorbing now will do to them in 10, 20, 30 years, and that means avoiding physical habits that do damage.

In light of that, we have to consider any amount of finger curvature—or lack of it—by looking at each student as an individual, then watching, almost every moment, to see what is happening, then we have to watch the rest of the body. Of course the goal is to get great sound, which means speed, power, lightness, control, a million other things, but I suggest that there are many ways to get all the things that we value in the greatest of players either with a terrible phyiscal price, or without it. So at any moment, what that fingers are doing, what they look like, is just part of a much larger picture.

This is *huge* and is fundamentally beyond the scope of a forum such as this to explain in a practical way. The best we can do is to link to videos of people who play in a way that is extremely efficient, sane, non-damaging to the body and that enables these players to get beautiful results, point these people out as possible examples of what and what not to do, and hope it gives people who are learning some clues.

But even here we run into a paradox. Would it help to watch Tiger Woods win a major championship in order to develop an idea of a basic golf swing? Should we watch a famous home-run hitter to develop a mechanically sound baseball swing? How much can we learn by watching champions?

I think the answer is that champions learn from watching each other, but if the rest of us need to "take a lesson" from them, we have to get them to show us elementary movements. But even if they consent to do this, are they still doing the same things right? Or might they "dumb-down their own skills", in an effort to make things elementary, in a way that no longer authentically represents what they do best? How often do great players (athletes or pianists) have a talent for transmitting what they know to people who are working on an elementary level?

So can we learn a lot from watching great performers? In general, I don't think so, not if we are not on the same level, or close to it.

Should anyone here trust me, or anything I'm saying here? None of you have heard me play. None of you have seen me play. You haven't seen or heard my students. Maybe I really know a lot. Maybe I am full of wind.

Finding a good teacher, in the end, is largely a matter of luck. I would only say to the OP that when a young player seems to be doing very well with a teacher, when there is a fit, when reading is taking place, when there is enjoyment, when a whole number of positive things are happening, moving to another teacher because of advise given in this or any other forum not only may not result in a better teacher, it may very well result in trading a fine teacher for a much poorer one.



Edited by Gary D. (05/04/09 03:07 AM)
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#1192907 - 05/04/09 03:31 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I think the answer is that champions learn from watching each other, but if the rest of us need to "take a lesson" from them, we have to get them to show us elementary movements...

...So can we learn a lot from watching great performers? In general, I don't think so, not if we are not on the same level, or close to it.

Should anyone here trust me, or anything I'm saying here? None of you have heard me play. None of you have seen me play. You haven't seen or heard my students. Maybe I really know a lot. Maybe I am full of wind.
That's so right. Good teachers learn from each other and are also quick to spot a fake. Sadly those that are all full of wind blow the inexperienced off the map!
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#1192909 - 05/04/09 04:01 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5284
Loc: Orange County, CA
Wow...this thread really got derailed...

To answer the original question--

The pictures in the Piano Adventures book show the index finger touching the thumb. To me, that is curled. I do not play with curled fingers, nor do I teach curled fingers. I teach a relaxed, natural hand shape/position.

If you drop your arm freely to your side, your fingers are naturally curved, but your thumb is about an inch away from your index finger. I keep that natural shape when I play the piano. Most of the time, I play with the "pads" of the fingers. I come closer to fingertips when I play scale passages and fast runs.
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#1192913 - 05/04/09 04:19 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: AZNpiano]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
The pictures in the Piano Adventures book show the index finger touching the thumb.
Thanks for that. Now I see. Agree with you 100%.
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#1192989 - 05/04/09 08:59 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The point of the index finger touching the thumb is simply as pedagogical exercise for avoiding collapsed joints.

Something missing from the current discussion is that many people do not have the strength or muscle tone necessary to maintain the kind of slight curvature we value. In the early stages, investigating a slight curl can be helpful in building up the muscles necessary for a slight curvature.

The authors of Piano Adventures are not suggesting that you play with curled fingers as per their diagram, they are simply suggesting that it may help build strength in the finger joints.
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#1192996 - 05/04/09 09:10 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
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It's not lack of strength (the long flexors are made to hold your body weight) that breaks joints but lack of coordination. Will somebody please post the pictures?
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#1193004 - 05/04/09 09:21 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
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Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The point of the index finger touching the thumb is simply as pedagogical exercise for avoiding collapsed joints.

Something missing from the current discussion is that many people do not have the strength or muscle tone necessary to maintain the kind of slight curvature we value. In the early stages, investigating a slight curl can be helpful in building up the muscles necessary for a slight curvature.

The authors of Piano Adventures are not suggesting that you play with curled fingers as per their diagram, they are simply suggesting that it may help build strength in the finger joints.

Kreisler,

I'm not grasping why strength or muscle tone would be necessary for the slight curvature. I thought it was the default conformation of the hand at rest or in repose, and as such wouldn't require any special effort. (I imagined that it's curling the fingers or flattening them that takes work!)

Could you elaborate?

Steven
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#1193027 - 05/04/09 10:15 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: AZNpiano]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

The pictures in the Piano Adventures book show the index finger touching the thumb.

If you drop your arm freely to your side, your fingers are naturally curved, but your thumb is about an inch away from your index finger.


I don't have the books in front of me right now, but I don't think the pictures in 1 and 2A books show the tip of the index finger touching the thumb's tip.

Actually for my hand, it is also about 1 inch between the index finger's tip and the thumb's tip, this is how I feel the relaxed, natually curved fingers are like. (The finger's second joint is about 110 degrees open)

keyboardlklutz's curved fingers (looks flat fingers to me) is at least 2 inches between the the tips of the thumb and index finger. (The finger's second joint is at least 160 degrees open)

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#1193033 - 05/04/09 10:35 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Gary D.]
C.Y. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 391
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Finding a good teacher, in the end, is largely a matter of luck. I would only say to the OP that when a young player seems to be doing very well with a teacher, when there is a fit, when reading is taking place, when there is enjoyment, when a whole number of positive things are happening, moving to another teacher because of advise given in this or any other forum not only may not result in a better teacher, it may very well result in trading a fine teacher for a much poorer one.


Hi Gary,
Thanks for your suggestion. I have said I was just kidding about the changing teacher thing, I think I know better than that, please don't worry about it.
I have to say your other post about your personal experience dealing with tension is great, thanks for sharing it with us.
Do you think by posting video clips on youtube and ask teachers in the forum to evaluate would be helpful? I will never encourage him to be a pro musician, just want music to be part of his education. I certainly don't want my son to have tension problem that could bother him when he is older.

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#1193048 - 05/04/09 11:11 AM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: C.Y.]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Keep in mind, people that every has different lengths of fingers & thumbs. My thumb comes up to the 2nd joint in my index finger, and I noticed a student of mine's only comes halfway up the first half of her index finger. So talking about curvature with regards to relation to the other fingers is somewhat erroneous.

Also, speaking of curvature in degrees is not a universal thing. I play with flat fingers sometimes, a slight curve with others, and still more of a curve in other passages. It really depends on the context as to what is appropriate.

Lastly, when dealing with beginners, it is better to err on the side of more of a curve, because they will tend to collapse the fingernail joint and/or play exclusively flat fingered. Asking them to play with more of a curve can help counter this. This is *not* damaging because one can curve the fingers without being overly tense, and I am careful to be sure this is the case. As the ligaments in the fingernail joint get stronger and the student becomes more aware of playing without collapsing the joint, they are just about at the point of playing larger intervals (6ths & higher) which require a flatter hand to execute.
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#1193071 - 05/04/09 12:00 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
It's not lack of strength (the long flexors are made to hold your body weight) that breaks joints but lack of coordination.
And that includes ligaments.
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snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1193079 - 05/04/09 12:20 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
kennychaffin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 889
Loc: Aurora, CO
Oh, my, I've been missing all the fun. smile

I see we've extended the curved/curled discussion and thrown in a peck of controversy and attitude. smile

Please carry on. I was definitely interested in the "technique" question in the the other thread as there seems to be many schools of thought regarding technique and piano action adjustments.
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#1193179 - 05/04/09 02:39 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: sotto voce]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The hand at rest doesn't have to support the weight of the arm. While playing, however, the fingers and hand do have to support the weight of the arm (albeit for very short amounts of time), and that requires a certain degree of muscle tone and strength.

Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The point of the index finger touching the thumb is simply as pedagogical exercise for avoiding collapsed joints.

Something missing from the current discussion is that many people do not have the strength or muscle tone necessary to maintain the kind of slight curvature we value. In the early stages, investigating a slight curl can be helpful in building up the muscles necessary for a slight curvature.

The authors of Piano Adventures are not suggesting that you play with curled fingers as per their diagram, they are simply suggesting that it may help build strength in the finger joints.

Kreisler,

I'm not grasping why strength or muscle tone would be necessary for the slight curvature. I thought it was the default conformation of the hand at rest or in repose, and as such wouldn't require any special effort. (I imagined that it's curling the fingers or flattening them that takes work!)

Could you elaborate?

Steven
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1193185 - 05/04/09 02:46 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: Kreisler]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The hand at rest doesn't have to support the weight of the arm. While playing, however, the fingers and hand do have to support the weight of the arm (albeit for very short amounts of time), and that requires a certain degree of muscle tone and strength.
There's no beginner that needs that kind of strength.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1193211 - 05/04/09 03:28 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13707
Loc: Iowa City, IA
To clear up some things, I've started another post in which I link real pictures of the Piano Adventures method along with some commentary.

All are welcome to voice their praise, approval, disapproval, or disgust under that topic as well!

laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1193734 - 05/05/09 12:31 PM Re: What's your definition of curved fingers? [Re: keystring]
Binchois Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/05/09
Posts: 15
I think it's fair to say that an "ideal" yet natural "handshape" is very dependent upon the pianist. Further, we can identify changeable wrist-, hand-, and finger- attacks which are purely situational and which will surely influence his or her "optimal" handshapes (now plural).

When beginning, I prefer to emphasize the point on the fingerTIP from where the key should be struck - being sure the student is playing neither on the pad of the finger (flat) or on the nail (over-curved or curled).

Ask the student to support his or her arm-weight on the tip of one finger and they should easily realize the advantage of NOT playing on the pads. This is especially important on the 5th finger which many beginners will strike from the side (despite having ostensibly curved fingers).

"Handshape" or "curvature" will follow from this naturally - frequently with no further emphasis.


Edited by Binchois (05/05/09 03:37 PM)

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