Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1189723 - 04/29/09 10:55 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: GreenRain]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I’m in your corner moscheles (of Drudge origin), with pointed comments on the misnaming of the haunting 28-15 Chopin Prelude ... my reference book "The Literature of the Piano" by Ernest Hutcheson, expresses the view that Prelude 6 (and not, 15) is the famed "Raindrop Prelude" ... and adds of this short B minor Prelude 28-6 ...

"The slow beating of the repeated notes in the RH should resemble a "Bebung" effect, every second 8th note barely audible. The important thing, however, is the complaining cello-like melody of the left hand.”

Bebung (German: a trembling) is a type of vibrato executed on the clavichord.


Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1190686 - 04/30/09 03:23 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
No matter which prelude is called the "Raindrop," I am unable to find a source that says Chopin named it so. The later romantics, von Bulow in particular, were constantly giving previously un-nicknamed pieces pictureseque descriptive titles.

My point still stands, then: if Chopin didn't write Op 28 no 15 as an imitation of raindrops, then there's no point to changing his fingering to better imitate raindrops. Some pianists may find it helpful to imagine raindrops as they play the piece, but I think a good pianist will play the piece in such a way that the repeated notes have musical and structural meaning, and I think that's what matters most.

Top
#1190707 - 04/30/09 04:10 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: moscheles001]
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
I could never see the "raindrop" aspect of the this prelude either. What I found is this is an etude in finger voicing, tone balance, and tempo control.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

Top
#1191090 - 05/01/09 07:30 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: John Citron]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
We’ve got a couple o’ Killjoys here chaps ... while all the others have visions of the patter of raindrops (amongst others Georges Sand) we are beset with an apposite view ... which fails to register the romantic rhythm of rain (while we are happily snuggled round a fire) ... and inpoetically regard 28-15 (and perhaps 28-6) and even as merely Studies (etudes) to sharpen up one’s game.

I’m not sure that Chopin would appreciate the matter-of-fact appreciation of two of his most endearing Preludes ... the next bolt of Zeus lightning could well singe two contraries in NE Pennsylvania and Massachusetts ... live it up chaps ... the glass is half-full!!

Top
#1191167 - 05/01/09 11:02 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
I think it's possible for a piece of music to be beautiful and moving without having an extra-musical meaning. Chopin's Etudes, were, after all, etudes; yet, they are also beautiful and moving works of art.

Top
#1191262 - 05/01/09 01:41 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: moscheles001]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
I believe it is documented that Chopin not only did not affix descriptive titles to his works but also that he disliked such titles being suggested for his works.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1191273 - 05/01/09 01:52 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: BruceD]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
As Jeremy Siepmann observes [1] :

"... but which [Preludes] were composed in Majorca? Contrary to popular mythology, most of them appear to have been finished before Chopin arrived on the island. Nor is there any justification for the legend that the D flat Prelude, the so-called 'Raindrop', was inspired by the remorseless drips from the roof of the monastery. In any case, such speculation is largely irrelevant. Of all the romantic composers, none was more opposed to programmatic references than Chopin, a point emphasized by his almost provocatively non-committal choice of title."

[1] Siepmann, Jeremy. Chopin, the Reluctant Romantic. Boston, Northeastern University Press, 1995, (p. 143).
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1191293 - 05/01/09 02:20 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: maxine]
Sam tSoi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 3
Originally Posted By: maxine
I began learning this piece awhile ago, but I'm still having trouble with the beginning. I can play the entire first page and the first bit of the second with my right and left hands separate but not together.

And I can play from where the key signature changes and it's "poco piu animato" to the part where it repeats the beginning before coming to a close with both hands playing. It's probably because I don't have that much experience, and the way those notes are fit together sorta throws me.

Does anyone who's played this piece in its entirety have tips for me?
I'm nearing on 2 years of piano exp., and I'm learning this piece without my teacher.

Are you learn by youself or a teacher?most of time youi near a teacher in the started, it make you know something basic

Top
#1191339 - 05/01/09 03:53 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: btb
We’ve got a couple o’ Killjoys here chaps ... while all the others have visions of the patter of raindrops (amongst others Georges Sand) we are beset with an apposite view ... which fails to register the romantic rhythm of rain (while we are happily snuggled round a fire) ... and inpoetically regard 28-15 (and perhaps 28-6) and even as merely Studies (etudes) to sharpen up one’s game.

I’m not sure that Chopin would appreciate the matter-of-fact appreciation of two of his most endearing Preludes ... the next bolt of Zeus lightning could well singe two contraries in NE Pennsylvania and Massachusetts ... live it up chaps ... the glass is half-full!!


I'm not sure why those who attempt to dispel unfounded myths and popular legends should be considered "Killjoys," but if that's your take, so be it. If you hear raindrops in this Prelude, I hope that your umbrella is handy!

Sand - who elected to use the English spelling of "George" for her nom de plume rather than the French "Georges" - is reputed to have turned a blind eye to facts and to have elaborated on the truth when it suited her 'poetic' nature. I wouldn't put too much faith in the historical accuracy of her recorded experiences.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1191575 - 05/02/09 01:46 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: BruceD]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7424
Originally Posted By: BruceD
I believe it is documented that Chopin not only did not affix descriptive titles to his works but also that he disliked such titles being suggested for his works.



I think that is accurate. But I think it is also worthwhile to point out that it doesn't mean that he himself didn't have extra-musical ideas about what a work of his was "about" or "describing".

Top
#1191595 - 05/02/09 03:24 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: wr]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Right on wr,

All these dull musicologist chappies with their beady, research eyes vainly searching for some tone poem content (meaning) in the writings of Chopin are bound to come up short ... they just aren’t blessed with a liberal dose of social bonhomie to share the magic.

So maybe Chopin didn’t like his works to be nick-named by the motley ... but forgive later generations from seeing breathtaking images in the playing of his masterpieces ... here for example is what Rubinstein said of the Ballade in F, Opus 38:

"A field flower, a windstorm, the wind caressing the flower, resistance of the flower, stormy fight of the wind, pleading of the flower — the flower lies broken. Or, paraphrased, the flower can be regarded as a country lass, the wind as a knight".

By the way chaps ... I’m presently engaged in a new adventure ... making marmalade.

Top
#1191596 - 05/02/09 03:30 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: btb
By the way chaps ... I’m presently engaged in a new adventure ... making marmalade.

As a marmalade maker myself, some advice: don't let it stick to the bottom of the pan or it might burn. Just stir now and again. Hey, you ought to be able to do that! grin
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1191598 - 05/02/09 03:44 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: currawong]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Too late currawong ... while I was out giving my dog a pavement sniff ... blackened bits started emerging ... now I've got the makings of dark marmalade ... but thanks for the tip.

PS On the bottom of the pot ... I think I've invented a super-glue for fixing tiles to space-vehicles.

Top
#1191661 - 05/02/09 08:12 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: wr]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Perhaps he did have extra-musical ideas about his works; but if he didn't include it in the title of the piece, we have no way of knowing. If we refer to Op 28, no 15 as simply "Prelude, Op 28, no 15," is it any less beautiful?

Top
#1191732 - 05/02/09 11:17 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: btb
Right on wr,

All these dull musicologist chappies with their beady, research eyes vainly searching for some tone poem content (meaning) in the writings of Chopin are bound to come up short ... they just aren’t blessed with a liberal dose of social bonhomie to share the magic.
[...]


Our dog-trotting, South African marmalade manufacturer cites Georges [sic!] Sand as an authoritative source for his point of view and then belittles others for finding sources that support their point of view. Double standard is foul play!

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1192132 - 05/02/09 09:06 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: moscheles001]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7424
Originally Posted By: moscheles001
Perhaps he did have extra-musical ideas about his works; but if he didn't include it in the title of the piece, we have no way of knowing. If we refer to Op 28, no 15 as simply "Prelude, Op 28, no 15," is it any less beautiful?


No, it doesn't make it less beautiful. I wasn't advocating extraneous titles, but just pointing out that Chopin's music may not have been totally abstract "pure" music to the composer himself, but sometimes had specific associations for him.

Top
#1192141 - 05/02/09 09:21 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: BruceD]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Our dog-trotting, South African marmalade manufacturer cites Georges [sic!] Sand as an authoritative source for his point of view and then belittles others for finding sources that support their point of view. Double standard is foul play!

Yeah! May his marmalade fail to jell! smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

Top
#1192176 - 05/02/09 10:18 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: maxine]
JellyBeanLover Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: maxine
I began learning this piece awhile ago, but I'm still having trouble with the beginning. I can play the entire first page and the first bit of the second with my right and left hands separate but not together.

And I can play from where the key signature changes and it's "poco piu animato" to the part where it repeats the beginning before coming to a close with both hands playing. It's probably because I don't have that much experience, and the way those notes are fit together sorta throws me.

Does anyone who's played this piece in its entirety have tips for me?
I'm nearing on 2 years of piano exp., and I'm learning this piece without my teacher.



Maxine, i too just learned this piece, i too took about two months on it( also on interpretation) and my suggestion for you is take smaller steps, and learn something easier. really.

However, if you insist on learning it, practice slowly, make sure the repeating A flat/Gsharp atay even and dont drown out the melody.
_________________________
JBL


To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong.
Rachmaninoff op3 no 5
Chopin Polonaise op 40 no 1
Beethoven-Sonata op 14 no 1
Hayden Piano Concerto in D major, Hob. XVIII:11

Top
#1192316 - 05/03/09 04:17 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: JellyBeanLover]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Just to let you chaps know that my black marmalade
(alternately super-glue, or perhaps even an antidote for scurvy) is not selling well ... but with half the ingredients over (using a small pot), I’m determined to get back on the bronco.

But in the interim, while reading in my morning bath (sudden chill in the Pretoria air) from Hadden’s "The Master Musicians", I came across these insightful words about Chopin:

"To play him and not sympathize with him — not to have something that spirit of romance that shines out in his compositions — is to court certain failure; and that is why so many players whose talent is chiefly executive have had to give him up and leave him to the appreciation of the far-seeing few."

Must get back to stirring the pot!!

Top
#1192323 - 05/03/09 04:32 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: btb]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Those 'whose talent is chiefly executive'. I shall remember that all day!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#1193050 - 05/04/09 11:17 AM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: wr]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: moscheles001
Perhaps he did have extra-musical ideas about his works; but if he didn't include it in the title of the piece, we have no way of knowing. If we refer to Op 28, no 15 as simply "Prelude, Op 28, no 15," is it any less beautiful?


No, it doesn't make it less beautiful. I wasn't advocating extraneous titles, but just pointing out that Chopin's music may not have been totally abstract "pure" music to the composer himself, but sometimes had specific associations for him.


Perhaps he did, but since we don't know, we can't let that limit our performance of the music, or our reaction to it.

The issue is whether the Chopin's fingering should be ignored in order to better imitate rain drops. If he wasn't imitating rain drops (as far as we know), then his fingering should be respected.

Top
#1193272 - 05/04/09 04:36 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: moscheles001]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: moscheles001[...
The issue is whether the Chopin's fingering should be ignored in order to better imitate rain drops. If he wasn't imitating rain drops (as far as we know), then his fingering should be respected.


How would the fact that Chopin was - or was not - imitating rain drops affect whether or not to choose Chopin's fingering? Or, to put it another way: could I not imitate rain drops using Chopin's fingering? It seems to me that whether one wants to think of this specific piece as programme music or whether one wants to think of it as purely abstract music, the recommended fingering is preferable because it is that which produces the most musical results consistent with Chopin's style of writing.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

Top
#1193730 - 05/05/09 12:22 PM Re: Chopin's Op. 28: 15th Prelude, 'Raindrop' [Re: BruceD]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 751
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: moscheles001[...
The issue is whether the Chopin's fingering should be ignored in order to better imitate rain drops. If he wasn't imitating rain drops (as far as we know), then his fingering should be respected.


How would the fact that Chopin was - or was not - imitating rain drops affect whether or not to choose Chopin's fingering? Or, to put it another way: could I not imitate rain drops using Chopin's fingering? It seems to me that whether one wants to think of this specific piece as programme music or whether one wants to think of it as purely abstract music, the recommended fingering is preferable because it is that which produces the most musical results consistent with Chopin's style of writing.

Regards,


Thanks. Your response is much more logical than mine. I hope it's OK to be logical, lest we be accused of being Vulcans, too?

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
182 registered (accordeur, acortot, 36251, 54 invisible), 1736 Guests and 32 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74230 Members
42 Forums
153553 Topics
2250430 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
OT: John Passion
by wimpiano
Today at 04:33 PM
3/4 time for 6/8 time comping patterns?
by Ben Ther
Today at 04:33 PM
Shanks with parallel wood grain
by JohnSprung
Today at 04:15 PM
Pinblocks & bridges... How long do they last?
by Piano Practice
Today at 03:58 PM
Spinoff: What do we think of "technique seminars"?
by TwoSnowflakes
Today at 02:46 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission