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How can you say that when you just said you "won't take student x because of..."
or you "won't take student Y because of..." and you decided this just because they send you an Email instead of a phone call.
I agree with the point that all lessons are opportunities. We have the opportunity to learn a new way of doing things too.
Wouldn't the "best teacher" be the one that continues to teach, even knowing that there is much untapped potential there? The teacher that plods along, never giving up, so that in the big picture they have ultimately learned? .

Again, the bottom line is that these girls now like the piano, and they can play it. If they would have come to you for lessons, they would now know nothing because you have decided they don't have a high enough "work ethic" or high enough "standards".

I cannot fathom telling a student to leave just because his expectations/enthusiasm are different than mine. We cannot change other people. I would no more tell a student how enthusiastic he has to be than I would tell him how to dress. Just because they don't show enthusiasm, does not mean it isn't there. Haven't you ever seen a game show winner that just says "thank you"? Just because they are not hopping up and down doesn't mean they aren't happy to have won! Some people are just not demonstrative.

Each of us have differing standards concerning our teaching and our clientele. Like Betty, I feel extremely guilty about taking money from a low performing student - if the low performance is a result of lack of effort on the student's part. If, after clarifying the situation with the parent, they want to continue, then I have to evaluate how well I will cope with frustration on a weekly basis.

When faced with a full studio, and two students, one who prepares carefully week to week and the other who does not, is there a moral obligation to try and squeeze both in? To take the latter over the former? These are ethical questions. Personally, I must be certain that I am not taking the low performing student just to provide myself income. It's just me.

Ebony and Ivory states: Not the ideal situation, but they can play for enjoyment and I still enjoy their company every week.

They can theoretically play for enjoyment. Whether they actually do remains a question. If Ebony refused to take them next year, it might happen they meet a Betty and start working. Then the parents would wonder why they didn't make a change earlier.

Over the years, I have felt as Ebony feels. I said to myself, right now I'm the best teacher for these children. I can teach them to practice through my diligent efforts and patience. And I'm helping to develop intelligent audience members for concerts and recitals in the future. This is all true.

Sometimes, though, the challenging move is the one you need to make as a teacher. This might be insisting on an acoustic piano or more practice time, or letting the student go.

I have noticed that the economic downturn is causing a rise in the number of piano teacher's in my area. As money gets tight there are more people who play a little setting themselves up for private tuition to earn some extra cash on the side. The local music store keeps a list of private teachers and it's getting very long.

I'm lucky. At the moment I still have as many students as I need to do this full time. However it does mean that I have my fair share of 'reluctant dragons'! There are simply not enough good, hard working students to go around.

Betty and Chris,

If it makes any difference, I was once to some extent a "reluctant dragon". I didn't practice nearly as much as I should have--usually ended up cramming some practice an hour before my lesson--and I never did any of the work from theory books that she assigned me because I found it all to be easy (also I was great at cramming before theory tests, always did well on them!). I do regret it a whole lot since I know I could have worked so much harder and gotten through so many more pieces than I did! But I was ignorant and immature back then (not that I am no longer XD). However, I was diligent during lessons and that was when most of the work got done, during lessons rather than practice time at home.
With all the hard work done by my teacher (rather than my own) I was able to pass the evaluations--easily, playing some rather difficult pieces too!

Now, only a year after ending lessons (college...), I've become much more serious about piano and have come to love it much more than I would have ever imagined back then. I've even been contemplating changing my major and pursuing a career in music, though I must say financial aspects of it do not seem very friendly.

Also, I forgot to mention, I was with my teacher for a whole 11 years, as was my older brother and cousin. Now my younger cousin is just starting lessons with her. I can't wait to INTRUDE on her lesson and show my old teacher all the pieces I've learned!

I guess everyone has a different picture of the reluctant dragon. In all honesty 100% my students could and should practise more than they do. I believe that is completely normal. I liked to play piano as a child but I didn't always practise what my teacher asked me too and I dare say I drove him mad quite frequently.

These students who go through phases of practising and not practising are not so much of a problem. Nor are the ones who practise but not as much as they should or not in the way that they should. The big problem is when you have a student who simply does nothing from one week to the next. I'm not talking about the odd week here and there, it's every week for months on end. There is always some excuse and it's clear that practise is just never going to happen. We all have them. Every teacher draws the line at some point. You have to make a decision whether or not you as a teacher are prepared to continue in this situation.

AZN, how do you do this? I have a couple kids that I would like to not have in the recitals too, they never play up to par. I used to take it personally, thinking I was the reason, but have come to realize that there will always be a few. As long as 99% do well, it is not a reflection on my teaching, but rather on their habits.

What do you say to them? Do you have them prepare and then decide they're not ready? Is it an option, or do you just tell them "no"?

But, you said you pulled them because "they would be blown out of the water". You don't believe that hearing the other kids would help? With mine it doesn't. They don't seem to notice that they don't play well. I'm not talking about the difficulty, I have no problem with beginners, but I am talking about too much halting, lack of dynamics and just general not preparedness.

Thanks for your thoughts

Ebony and Ivory said:



Absolutely.

Candywoman said:



What is theoretical about playing for enjoyment? Whether the student will take time to play if they are not held to a strict practice standard? Some do. Some don't. But the question itself seems to imply that the only reason to teach piano is to have students reach a certain standard; and that certain levels of progress have to be maintained along the way. Kids and teens haven't usually developed enough tools to understand the value and work involved in pursuing a long-term goal, and that's definitely part of what I teach as a piano teacher. And who's to say that a student struggling through decisions on practicing and juggling priorities would even be accepted by a teacher with more strict practicing requirements and be given the chance to continue studying?

When I tell adults that I teach piano, the vast majority of the time I get responses like, "Oh, I had piano lessons as a child, it was like punishment, I didn't like it at all. I was so relieved when I didn't have to go anymore." Closely followed by, "But I wish I had continued, because now I'd really love it if I could play." (Or, even worse, "I had a music teacher tell me to pursue something else because I just didn't have any musical talent." Argh!) When I question them further, many of these people actually made it to intermediate level or further, but because of the negativity of the experience, walked away from the piano without any idea of how much they acutally accomplished and how much they could be enjoying playing right now.

I do require practice for my young students, we even have a conversation working out the best time of day for the child to practice, hopefully at or near the same time each day. This accomplishes two things: it doesn't leave piano practice "up in the air" and at the bottom of the day's priority list, and it builds an expectation for the child that "4:30 is piano time." It becomes part of every day, like brushing your teeth. By the time the excitement of new lessons wears off, they've seen enough progress that they start to understand what not practicing means for their playing, and since they were included in the whole conversation from the beginning, they know what's expected and why. Most of my students respond to this curriculum with a big love of playing, so practicing isn't usually a problem.

But my goal isn't just to have these kids learn piano; my goal is for them to have a positive experience with music and with themselves as learners so that whatever level they reach, if they choose not to continue studies, they walk away happy. That as an adult they'd say, "You know, I loved piano lessons." That sometimes they'd sit down and play just because they love it and don't want to lose what they've learned.

Adults I don't hold to the same kind of practice standard, but I let them know that they won't experience the same kind of progress and they have to be OK with that. When they get frustrated, I refer back to that conversation and let them know they have the power to change the course of their progress by changing their practice priorities. But if they are happy with their progress with two half-hour practice sessions every week, I'm happy to teach them!

OK, I've written a book. I don't have experience with the economy right now to comment on it; but I will be starting a studio from scratch in my new town in the fall in the midst of this economy, so we'll see how it goes.

Best,

Kim

To address my teaching philosophy, I will start my responding to some questions:
[quote=Ebony and Ivory][quote=Betty Patnude]
1) Wouldn't the "best teacher" be the one that continues to teach, even knowing that there is much untapped potential there? The teacher that plods along, never giving up, so that in the big picture they have ultimately learned? .

2) If they would have come to you for lessons, they would now know nothing because you have decided they don't have a high enough "work ethic" or high enough "standards".

My answers:
1) I could not plod along as a teacher - I am not serving my purpose if I allow myself to plod along. I have things to contribute to change the scenario, and I will. They will get this example of a role model, and they will understand what I mean, and how I mean it. One does not plod along if there is a choice that reaches and teaches them to do differently.

2) They have to achieve only a good attitude, and make some effort toward learning. I will continue to teach to work ethic and achievable standards in hopes to elevate them to do "enough".

Additionally:
3) If there is a serious reason that contributes to limited involvement in music, I will find out what the parameters causing it are and do what is necessary to make the music making purposeful and satisfying. Those things would be unusual emotional problems, learning differences, having trauma in their lives, family stresses and emergencies.

4) I really believe I need to teach, not to patiently wait it out and succumb to the least common denominator of merely existing through lessons. Not everyone comes talented or gifted, some require lots of stimulation, winding up, and exposure to good examples. We have different kinds of people in our studios and they need to mingle with each other to get the overview of what music means to them and to others, and to how there are different varieties of music styles and abilities. The last thing I would do, I would not be able to live with myself, would be to eliminate someone from participating in recitals. Recitals are meant for a large part to show enjoyment and progress in learning music, not only for fantastic abilities and accomplishments above the norm. I want my least accomplishing student to get on the bench (the hot seat) and do his best. And I want the audience to appreciate that about him or her and to give as much respect for participation in recitals as we give for any other reason when we applaud.

5) To allow laziness and let music students off the hook is a disservice to them. It's for and about them that we take on music students, to help them put their best foot forward and to live with the results of their efforts regardless of what that results might be. If I can not help them "inch" beyond their low ambitions and mediocrity then I am not doing a good enough job.

6) If this is offensive to any one let me say it is not written to make an example or comparison of myself to any one else, it is to state clearly my ethics and ambitions in teaching music to others.

7) Our students are counting on us to help them and in music teaching the results are part of the accountability, an example of our purpose and accomplishments together. We can't waste one half hour in getting to that miracle.

Betty Patnude

So true! It would be nice if we could hand pick the best. How often it has happened that it seems like they ARE going to be the best, only to find out they're not. Or they're slackers. Then we have to decide if we are going to keep on keepin on or not.

Well said, Chris!

To plod: to work slowly and steadily

It was not intended to be derogatory. I simply meant never giving up.

I don't think this thread is now about the economy, is it?

There are some very important problems going on. I have to think that whenever we talk about what I think of as "the elephant in the room", people get uncomfortable and switch the subject.

I don't mind talking about the economy.

It very much depends on where you are. In some countries or areas it will be worse than in others. The only thing I have noticed so far is less enquiries. This doesn't really matter for me personally because I have no spaces anyway. Perhaps it will get worse in the future, who knows?

One report I read suggested that the economic downturn could even cause an increase in the number of people taking up music lessons. Those fortunate enough to keep their jobs will be facing a great deal of stress and pressure. Playing the piano could help them to relax. Also it's still relatively cheap to learn piano. A years worth of lessons might seem like a big outlay but it will keep you occupied for several hours a week if you take it seriously. Those are hours you will not be going out and spending money!

You are so right about that! Being a mom of 3 boys, I can tell you that piano is cheaper than sports! After I pay to sign them up, I have to pay to buy all the stuff, and usually have to pay to watch them play too! Even track, just "running in circles" as my son says, costs over $400. a season and that's just to sign up!
I usually tell people that complain about the cost of sports, or lessons, "it's cheaper than drugs!"

Chris brings up a good point, how much does piano actually cost if we were to break it down per hour?

Lessons with a good teacher only seem like a "good deal" to people who know something about the damage bad teachers can do.

E & I,

I understand now that you meant "plod" to be:
To work slowly and steadily and never giving up;
and that it was not intended to be derogatory.

I looked up "plod" to verify my use of it:
Trudge Slog Tread Wearily Traipse Lumber Tramp Clump
To proceed slowly or tediously,
To move or walk heavily, slowly, or laboriously; trudge,
To work or act perseveringly, laboriously and monotonously; drudge,
The act of moving or walking heavily and slowly,
The sound made by a heavy step.
(Sentences about "mud" were used to describe it)

That is pretty much what plod means to me and why I used it as I felt the weight of lessons at that pace, but that's my personal comfort level and preferance of how I conduct teaching, and each of us has different needs, perspectivies, opinions, viewpoints, experience.

If you and your students have achieved a happy result that is to be joyful about because you are all in that triangle of student, teacher and parent - each and every triangle has "vibes" of it's own. If you had not been meeting their needs they would not have been with you for 6 years, and part of our objectives are to keep students interested in continuing in music study.

It is a good thing that we are able to learn from each other and share concepts, realities, and issues.

Betty Patnude

In general, how do teachers feel about students who practice diligently, yet show no musical aptitude and make less than average progress compared with a typical student? In other words, students who practice consistently and assiduously, as well as correctly, in accordance with the instructions of their teachers, yet continue to make slow progress. Likely, all students are judged by their efforts as well as their musical aptitude, but in what proportion?

The economy is especially poor where I live. The unemployment rate is pushing 18%, and that figure fails to include those who have stopping looking for work after having searched for so long to no avail and have expended their unemployment insurance. Of those who have jobs, many are part time or poorly paid or both. Even before the economic downturn, when the economy was (supposedly) strong, the town in which I live never really shared in the prosperous times our country was purportedly experiencing. Although we never experienced a housing boom and subsequent bust, we have serious problems nonetheless that stem from other causes. My town was essentially supported by a single industry, and when that industry failed, everything deteriorated (not that conditions were great to begin with). Thus we currently have a perpetuating cycle of misery. For example, our high school graduation rate is less than 50%. Meth addition is endemic, the worst in the entire state of Washington. And of course, we have related problems such as a proliferation of identity theft, rampant STDs, also the worst in Washington (no doubt fueled by the meth epidemic), as well as other problems.

My point: the United States is a huge nation, and economic conditions vary widely from location to location. I suspect that piano teachers in my area are much more lax than teachers from other areas in choosing students with which to work. I am a student like the one I described in my above post, and I gather that I would probably have a difficult time finding a teacher who would be willing to work with me if I lived in an area that was more economically prosperous. Ironically, our terrible economy was likely instrumental in my finding a piano teacher who was willing to work with me.

This is indeed rare. I have exactly one student who fits this description. She works very hard, does a great job with her theory homework, but her pieces are coming along at an extremely slow pace. She is a transfer student who has had four other teachers before me, but I don't think that is the problem--she's just not the brightest cookie in the world when it comes to piano (her school grades are off the chart, though). However, because I appreciate her effort very much, I am proud of all that she has achieved. She has two more competitions coming up, so I'll see how she handles stressful situations. If she shows signs of struggle, I might take her off the competition track and just let her enjoy making music.

In my studio, I have several students with musical talent, but they don't practice nearly enough because:

1) they have too many things going on at the same time,
2) they signed up for extracurricular activities that take up too much time (Boy Scouts and team soccer take up A TON of time; competitive swimming eats up Saturdays and poses conflicts with piano competitions),
3) they attend one of the highest ranked high schools in the country and thus have a ton of homework every day, or
4) they are just lazy.

Thus, with these students, it is a constant compromise. I would like to teach them more advanced pieces, but I can't. I would like them to have lessons longer than an hour, but their parents are not willing. I would like them to drop all other activities so they can focus on piano, but they are not willing. Talk about untapped potential...it shall remain untapped.

Thank-you for the reassurance AZNpiano . It is my impression that my teacher feels similarly, unless perhaps he is extremely adapt at feigning satisfaction. As far as the piano goes, I believe I understand concepts on an intellectual level. I'm simply massively uncoordinated, and I always have been at any endeavor that requires coordination.