There was a recent post that got shut down which discussed (among many other things) the weight of the keys. I wanted to post this, but could not get the time.
When I purchased my Schimmel I tried a Grotrian and absolutely loved the action. I was told it had been micro-balanced. After a brief show and tell- I decided to have this done to my Schimmel. The photos below are the paper trail of what was done. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of the techs here.
Before


After


Skrike weight chart

[img]http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/SchimmelK[1].213.NWS.strike.weight.jpg[/img]

Thanks for sharing this. I am guessing that you are talking about the David Stanwood method called Precision TouchDesign that my tech has been talking to me about. Is that correct?

very interesting, carl. was the grotrian 'special' in that it had had this process done, or did they say that was a factory standard for their company?

and most important, are you happy with the outcome? is the schimmel's action now as good as or better than the grotrian's?

I would want to go over the action and do some fine key easing and work on the friction in the hammer and whippen flange center pins.
The friction appears to have moved slightly with the up and down weights (as expected) but did not change much overall. It looks good but some fine work would even out the peaks.
I am assuming the action was carefully regulated.

Jordang: You are correct.

Duncantwo: Overall I am pretty please with the action. The Grotrian had undergone this process and was the influencing factor for me to have this done to the Schimmel. That said, I am not sure that was what connected me to the Grotrian. Had the tone suited my ear a bit better, I may have gone in that direction.

Gene: We are in the middle of building a new home and once done- with acclimation allowed, I may address this again as there are still a couple of issues in the very lower end.

Hi Carl,
Thanks for sharing. This is interesting, as I've thought about Stanwoodization of my Schimmel, and the K189 and the 213 should have a similar touch as they are in the same trilogy. The closest qualified tech in my area is way out in South Dakota, so about 7+hrs round trip.

How would you describe the feel of the piano before and after the microbalancing? I wish I could out a Stanwoodized piano so I could decide. I have played a new Grotrian 192 at a local dealership before just for fun and did think there was something quite unique about the touch. Is this microbalancing something that all Grotrians receive at the factory?

Interesting discussion. I played a M&H BB that had been Stanwoodized and it was very controllable and effortless. I also played a Grotrian (possibly the same one that Carl played), but I didn't find the touch quite as nice as the BB. I would be curious to hear more details on the Schimmel.

Stanwoodization seems like a fair risk, since people's tastes in the action vary quite a bit. Obviously it'd be best to buy the piano AFTER the process has been completed (much like a rebuild).

I'm also curious about the responsibility of the technician after the process is complete, if it does not meet the customer's expectation. Is/was that negotiated as part of the deal?

Karen,
The Stanwood method was done in the dealer's shop after the Grotrian was delivered. Not at the factory. I cannot give you a before and after comparison for "my" Schimmel as this was incorporated into the dealer prep once the Schimmel arrived. The NWS model was a special order. I tried Sauter and the 7' 4" Grotrian as well as several others. I kept going back to Grotrian and was told perhaps what I liked about the piano was the prep (Stanwood method) that this piano had been given. My thought at this point was that if I could get a similar action and the Schimmel tone - perfection! That did not happen. It still feels like a Schimmel action and that is a "good thing" as well.

One more thought... I don't think that the Stanwood method changes the action... "perhaps" levels the playing field of the one you have.

I was shown the same graphs and table when I purchased my Fandrich & Sons 185HGS. I love the balance feeling across the entire keyboard and the way that a depressed key comes back to my finger. I think Heather is the "key" person doing this important task for all their pianos.

Carl,

Very interesting. It would be very good if you can keep us posted about your experience with Stanwood-isation.

The answer to this is that it depends. Sometimes we change the action significantly, and sometimes not. There are three things we address when doing this work: 1)friction; 2) weighting; and 3) action geometry. Friction has to be addressed in any case. For weighting, some jobs are more in the category of just smoothing the weights out, and others involve more drastic changes. Action geometry is usually refered in terms of the action ratio. Sometimes it is left alone, and sometimes not. Changing the action ratio is more what you would probably think of as changing the action significantly. What we do depends upon what we find when we analyze the action, and also what the end user wants out of it.

David Stanwood is responsive to what we tell him we want out of an action, and he designs the action accordingly. What actually makes it a Stanwood job is the method of key balancing according to his calculations. His patent covers the "Equation of Balance". The front weights of the keys are calculated according to the smooth progression of hammer weights. Beyond that, it is up to the tech. We are trained in the Stanwood procedures, and are given a variety of methods as to how to affect the action ratio. It is up to us to implement these properly. We are usually given a target action ratio. There are many choices to be made in the process. So, we must have good communication with the customer so that know what they want out of the instrument.

The idea that you can patent a basic equation, the physics of which have been understood for hundreds of years, is a bit silly, imo. I have read Stanwood's patents and they don't even explain why the strike weight is so important.

Of course, people will wonder what I mean, given that he does have the patents. I have a couple of answers. First, a patent is only as good as its ability to stand up in court when challenged, and two, piano companies have effectively been doing what his patent covers for so long that I'm sure they don't give his patents a thought as they continue to design and build their pianos as has been customary.

This will probably sound like a criticism of Stanwood, but I don't mean it to be--I think his work has been valuable to the piano community.

Can you who know, tell me the range of cost for this work. I am talking about having the work done on an almost new very high quality Renner action. How much would I expect to spend? Thanks

I was recently quoted $1800-$2200 depending on extent of work needed, plus travel expenses.

Roy/Gene:
Please correct me if I am wrong but, it would seem that with the Stanwood Precision TouchDesign- the forcus is on the keyboard and most if not all this work is done with it removed from the piano. If this is the case, is there consideration for how these adjustments will impact the tonal quailty of the piano? I have this image of of a craftsman or possibly craftsmen in the factory working, adjusting, modifying all of the new piano components to ulitmately come up with the best playing and sounding piano possible. I would suspect there might have to be compromise to achieve this. If the Stanwood method corrects this compromise might you devalue the tone?

I recommend the Precision Touch Design if you are unhappy with your action, whether your piano is new or not. While many top manufacturers are paying more attention to the evenness of the touch across the scale, and doing what they can to reduce friction, these are only some of the benefits of the Touch Design. Perhaps the greatest benefit is that the authorized technicians are a self-selecting group of RPTs who have an interest in much more than just tuning. They observe your playing, listen carefully to what you like and don't like in your action, and then communicate back and forth with David about how to achieve the desired result. You get the degree of heaviness or lightness, the fastness of repetition, the after-touch, the desired "snap back" to your fingers, and other characteristics that suit your style of playing. There is such enormous variety in how people physically approach playing the piano that we often accept an action that suits the average person. Why should you? If you love playing, and you are investing money in a lifetime partner (your piano), with a bit more money you can get the control necessary to produce all the poetry and drama you want.

I just read the new book out on Glenn Gould - A Romance on Three Legs - about his lifetime search for the most fluid, light, and responsive action. Sadly, the man died too young. By now he would have found his answer in new developments like the Precision Touch Design.

The PTD is just one of several advancements in action design (see Ron Overs, Del Fandrich, Keith Kerman and other innovators). I chose the PTD and am very happy with it, but the point is there are lots of pianists on this forum who would be very surprised at how much better they could play if they had a truly responsive action.

My price came in under Karen quote... I suspect the work done on my Schimmel would be classified as "just smoothing the weights out"

If this is the case, is there consideration for how these adjustments will impact the tonal quailty of the piano?
________________________________________________
Carl, the Stanwood Balance will most certainly affect the tone of your piano.
One example was aparent in the spreadsheet posted above where the tech was measuring strike weights. (hammer and shank assembly mass)
If you observe and weigh each hammer in a typical set - even high quality hammers - you find that they vary in width and mass and are not a smooth graduation from bass to treble or large to small hammer. These variation jumps could make one hammer take a big jump in mass compared with its neighbour (one gram will make a big difference in tone and touch). This will require a voicer to even out the tonal jump that will be created because of it. Hammer mass and tone are proportional. Hammer mass and string mass also have a proportionality. Most hammer sets have these variations and adding brass/lead or thinning the hammer will make the strike weight even progression within a tolerence from bottom to top. This is what was done in the above spread sheet. When strike weight is evenly graduated the tone will become much more even. This is only one example of the processes that Roy described.

To Roy123...you may be right. I have no idea whether his patents are enforcable or not. Stanwood has publicly published quite a bit as well, so that much of the information is out there for those who care to read it. It has often been a subject of discussion on the PTG lists. There are techs who say they do something similar. I'm not sure whether they really understand the process or not. Some may, some may not. I have a friend who thought he was doing something similar, until he went through the training.

I figure that Stanwood has earned his due, and happily pay him for the service he provides. It's worth it to me, even if I could get around it. I look at him as a consultant. I send him data, and he sends me back specs and recommendations. It works well.

Gene summed up the variation due to weight well. When the hammers have less variance from note to note, voicing is simplified. So, I think that there are fewer compromises to make when the hammer weights are evened out.

One use of the Stanwood method has been to facilitate the use of heavier hammers. More mass hitting the strings, especially in the bass, produces fuller tone. To do this often requires changing the action ratio, to make the key lift the weight of the hammer more efficiently. It is, of course, up to the tech to select the weight of hammer will sound best, and to make sure that the action will regulate well.

As for price, I usually quote $2-4k depending on options. We haven't even gotten into the subject of performance options, with the adjustable wippen assist springs or magnets. Stanwood doesn't tell us what to charge, so it is going to vary by tech and area of the country.