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#1341804 - 01/05/10 07:27 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper, do you want me to start a "Stopper Vs Chas" Topic for you?

..."We probably have a different perception of the reality regarding this.
Relevance and validity are two slightly different things."...

Tell us Stopper, if you want to describe "only-pure" 19 root of three's relevance, why do not you do it?

..."You can gain this (ET scales ratio) with Mazzola's general tuning formula as i mentioned already.
Again, Chas model is valid here, but not relevant as new."...

Stopper, do not stop elaborating.

Basic Chas is: (3 - Δ)^(1/19) = (4 + (Δ*s))^(1/24)

For s = 1
Δ = 0.0021253899646...
Scale incremental ratio = 1.0594865443501...

Have you seen Chas ratio before?

You write:..."I figured out too, that the model of the natural form of the fifth circle equation i am using to illustrate my tuning model can exactly take the Chas model form for the harmonic case. By replacing the constants with variables (which is equivalent to Mazzolas general model) every inifinite scale can be done as with Chas."...

Good for you, you too have now figured out.

..."Your paper with it´s grossly wrong statements about interval progression inversion for the harmonic case and the valid but inevident form of the equal beating duodecime-double-octave equal temperament over other forms of equal temperament..."...

For me, you have lost your bearings. I talk about "inversion" for Chas preparatory tuning, and I talk about equal beating 12ths and 15ths as a result of partials interrelations.

...is a blame for yourself and for the the anonymous co-authors of the GRIM group, as they did not recognize them before making the paper publicly available."...

What is needed for interrelating all partials, say for playing all partials and coherently stretch all intervals, is a double-octave module. This gains Chas intermodular set, together with the proportional stretch curves for all intervals.

Where is the blame? Why do you blame "anonymous co-authors of the GRIM group"? This is the GRIM group:

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Chi__siamo.htm

Prof.ssa Maria Elena Ajello Liceo Scientifico Cannizzaro Palermo tel. 091-6250651
marilina@katamail.com
Prof. Carmelo Arena Liceo Scientifico "Cannizzaro" Palermo tel. 091 347495
c.arena@libero.it
Prof.ssa Paola Brigalia Dottoranda tel. 3471353082
pbrigaglia@math.unipa.it
Prof. Benedetto Di Paola Assegnista MAT/04 tel. 091 23891053
dipaola@math.unipa.it
Prof.ssa. Maria Lucia Lo Cicero Dottoranda
locicero@math.unipa.it
Dott. Giuliano D'Eredità Dottorando
deredita@math.unipa.it
Prof. Santi George Dottorando
grpsanti@gmail.com
Prof. Luigi Menna Dottorando
luigimenna@yahoo.it
Dott. Mario Ferreri Membro Aggregato tel.091-6681188
mario.ferreri1@tin.it
Prof.ssa Daniela Galante PhD, Conservatorio di Musica di Stato V. Bellini di Palermo tel. 091 421405
danifranco@alice.it
Prof.ssa Brigida Grillo ITC "Libero Grassi" Palermo tel 091-587723
gribic@katamail.com
Prof.ssa Rosa La Rosa (Scuola Media "V.Emanuele" Palermo) tel.091-6681188
mario.ferreri1@tin.it
Prof.ssa Daniela LoVerde tel.091-6819342
Prof.ssa Elsa Malisani PhD, Scuola Media Ribera (AG) tel.0925-544006
schillacimalisani@tiscalinet.it
Prof.ssa. Gianna Manno PhD, Membro Aggregato tel. 328 7414678
giamanno@libero.it
Prof. Gaetano Militello Istituto Tecnico V.E. III Palermo tel. 091-307568
gaetanomilitello@libero.it
Prof.ssa Cristina Mostacci Membro Aggregato tel.0923-921064
cmostac@libero.it
Prof.ssa Francesca Niceta Membro Aggregato tel.091-6852255
fniceta@libero.it
Prof. Perez Emanuele Liceo Scientifico "Einstein" Palermo tel. 091-6823877
messier.104@tin.it
Prof.Francesco Pintaldi
Membro Aggregato tel.091-6523500
pintaldi@libero.it
Prof.ssa Marcella Profumo Liceo Scientifico "Cannizzaro" Palermo tel.091-543174
mprofumo@aliceposta.it
Prof. Aldo Scimone PhD, Istituto Magistrale "F. Aprile" Palermo tel.091-305324
aldo.scimone@libero.it
Prof.ssa Claudia Sortino PhD, Membro Aggregato tel 329 0903595
cla.noc@libero.it
Prof.ssa Natalia Visalli Liceo Classico "Garibaldi" Palermo tel.091-345669
natalia.visalli@gmail.com
Prof.ssa Teresa Marino Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel. 091-23891073
marino@math.unipa.it
Prof.ssa Grazia Indovina Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel.091-308016
indovina@math.unipa.it
Prof.Pietro Nastasi Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel.091-6477272
nastasi@math.unipa.it

Chas author, as you can read in Chas research report, is me. Now please go and enjoy yourself.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1341857 - 01/05/10 08:57 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper, we cross-posted.

You were writing:

..."I don't see a point where I contradicted myself. I did not took back any of my statements regarding the higher degree of symmetry which is causing purity in tempered chords in the temperament I prefer."...

It was you and only you talking about "symmetries of highest degree...", Stopper, highest and not higher, like you are now saying.

..."(a purity you are avoiding in your form)"...

Exactly Stopper, what opens to a pure "intermodular set" where all partials are interrelated and all intervals have their precise beat curve.

..."Beside that I always said there is an infinite number with mathematical valid equal temperaments including yours possible."...

You have always said...? Nop, it was only last December.

..."Where do you see a contradiction..."...

I see a contradiction when you go from "My model has perfect symmetry in abscence of inharmonicity, while CHAS or other ET solutions have not." last June, to "...all harmonic ET models (including Chas model, Chas EB-ET form and mindless octaves, Cordiers pure fifth temperament, my own etc.) are mathematically valid...”, last December.

..."when I am falsifying the arguments you give to make your temperament more evident than others?"...

Do you believe? I'm not interested in competitions with other researchers. I replied you about this long ago.

..."What caused me to assume your paper to be a scientific hoax where the sheer numbers of wrong statements inside your report (see my falsifications)."...

You see Stopper, now you would be admitting what you had assumed then, when you addressed your readers towards a scientific hoax...and only now you state about wrong statements...what is this?...oh, it is 2.57, goodnight.

a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1342096 - 01/06/10 06:11 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


You were writing:

..."I don't see a point where I contradicted myself. I did not took back any of my statements regarding the higher degree of symmetry which is causing purity in tempered chords in the temperament I prefer."...

It was you and only you talking about "symmetries of highest degree...", Stopper, highest and not higher, like you are now saying.

If you find this a relevant contradicition, then interpret this difference as a typo and i mean of course highest degree.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."(a purity you are avoiding in your form)"...

Exactly Stopper, what opens to a pure "intermodular set" where all partials are interrelated and all intervals have their precise beat curve.

All equal temperaments have precise beat curves, this is not an exclusive feature of Chas.
Purity is well defined as abscence of beats. You contradict yourself here.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Beside that I always said there is an infinite number with mathematical valid equal temperaments including yours possible."...

You have always said...? Nop, it was only last December.

Another wrong statement of your side.
Read my post from June, 9, 09:
"Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET).Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET)."

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


..."Where do you see a contradiction..."...

I see a contradiction when you go from "My model has perfect symmetry in abscence of inharmonicity, while CHAS or other ET solutions have not." last June, to "...all harmonic ET models (including Chas model, Chas EB-ET form and mindless octaves, Cordiers pure fifth temperament, my own etc.) are mathematically valid...”, last December.


We are speaking in circles here. I told you about the the difference between mathematical validity and relevance of one form over others. (what i am referring here)

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."when I am falsifying the arguments you give to make your temperament more evident than others?"...

Do you believe? I'm not interested in competitions with other researchers. I replied you about this long ago.


I was not talking about competition between researchers here. I was questioning your argumentation about evidence of Chas form over other forms of temperament.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."What caused me to assume your paper to be a scientific hoax where the sheer numbers of wrong statements inside your report (see my falsifications)."...

You see Stopper, now you would be admitting what you had assumed then, when you addressed your readers towards a scientific hoax...and only now you state about wrong statements...what is this?...

Defintively not a contradicition. I have taken notice that you denied that option and that your paper is not a hoax. So i had to precise out the wrong statements.




Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/06/10 07:46 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

Top
#1342127 - 01/06/10 08:06 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Jeff, try to be happy with what follows and try to refrain from such comments: "You are interested in appearance not substance."...

You have had almost 8 months of "substance".

.....


No, I have had almost 8 months of smoke and mirrors, but I was not decieved. I just have finally decided that your deception is deliberate; that you were not decieved, yourself.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1342138 - 01/06/10 08:45 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: UnrightTooner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper, as I could explain, in my opinion you are not a reliable conversation partner. I take care about my face, so you can do about your face, but please stop arguing by insinuations.

...“All equal temperaments have precise beat curves, this is not an exclusive feature of Chas.
Purity is well defined as abscence of beats. You contradict yourself here.”...

What is the theoretical curve of 19 root of three on 12ths? And theoretical 12 root of two’s on octaves? You may well know about theoretical “abscence of beats”.

...“Another wrong statement of your side.
Read my post from June, 9, 09:
"Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET).Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET)."...

Yes, I confirm, I can not read about “validity”. There, you were only banalizing ETs “stretch”, while you may well understand that Chas ± Δ gains a very precise ET. This, in my opinion, may be what you do not like.

...“We are speaking in circles here. I told you about the the difference between mathematical validity and relevance of one form over others. (what i am referring here)”...

No circles but ways, Stopper. My way is describing Chas Theory’s relevance, a way that could also be your way for what concerns 19 root of three. But you have more interest in acting as a destroyer, as a detractor and as a defamer.

...“I was not talking about competition between researchers here. I was questioning your argumentation about evidence of Chas form over other forms of temperament.”...

I doubt you do not understand Chas relevance, and this doubting of mine suggests me to let TIME do his/her job. Nevertheless, yesterday I wrote you what you need for interrelating all partials and for intermodulating a 12 semitones set.

...“I have taken notice that you denied that option and that your paper is not a hoax. So i had to precise out the wrong statements. Although opting to the hoax variant could serve you well to keep your face.”...

How to tell you that I do not want any more of this staff? How to tell you that I find you too arrogant, deceitful and contorted. Please, keep on going for 19th root of three ET, as I shall keep on going for Chas ET Temperament and Chas Preparatory Tuning. Please write about your discovery, its relevance or supremacy or what ever you like in a different Topic.

a.c.

Jeff, you write:..."No, I have had almost 8 months of smoke and mirrors, but I was not decieved. I just have finally decided that your deception is deliberate; that you were not decieved, yourself."...

Good, at least you could make up your mind. Let me know when you make it up with Chas ET Theory's equation and with Chas ET ratio.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.






Edited by alfredo capurso (01/06/10 10:31 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1342161 - 01/06/10 09:30 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
.....

Jeff, you write:..."No, I have had almost 8 months of smoke and mirrors, but I was not decieved. I just have finally decided that your deception is deliberate; that you were not decieved, yourself."...

Good, at least you could make up your mind. Let me know when you make it up with Chas ET Theory's equation and with Chas ET ratio.

.....


Oh, I had made up my mind about that almost 8 months ago!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1342195 - 01/06/10 10:05 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: UnrightTooner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Jeff, you write:..."Oh, I had made up my mind about that almost 8 months ago!"...

This is what makes me shiver, how you could be so shabby and yet double-headed.

a.c.

.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1342229 - 01/06/10 10:44 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Get real. I have been critical of your paper all along. I posted in an effort to educate you.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1342345 - 01/06/10 01:22 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Stopper, do you want me to start a "Stopper Vs Chas" Topic for you?


This is not necessary, thank you.


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Tell us Stopper, if you want to describe "only-pure" 19 root of three's relevance, why do not you do it?

If have kindly invited you to participate at the italian convention last year, but you denied. There you have had the chance to listen what i was saying and presenting about, (sound, numbers and figures).
What i present in what form and when is my own decision. And the form of a public internet forum is definitively not what i will choose for.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."You can gain this (ET scales ratio) with Mazzola's general tuning formula as i mentioned already.
Again, Chas model is valid here, but not relevant as new."...

Stopper, do not stop elaborating.

Basic Chas is: (3 - Δ)^(1/19) = (4 + (Δ*s))^(1/24)

For s = 1
Δ = 0.0021253899646...
Scale incremental ratio = 1.0594865443501...

Have you seen Chas ratio before?

Mindless octaves equal temperament model of Bill Bremmer has been described before Chas:
http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2001-December/098956.html

quote from link, Bremmer: "Essentially, it is an *Equal Beating* compromise between the Double Octave
and the Octave and Fifth."

It has been described whithout mathematical formalization, but that doesn´t matter. Did you know that many historical tunings where described without formalization and still were usually constributed to their inventors and not to their formal describers?
I recommend you for reading:
Andreas Werckmeister "Musicalische Temperatur" (Quedlinburg 1691)

Beside that i don´t see much need to advocate a tuning for someone else.
If you arrive to get this temperament contributed to you, so be it.


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

You write:..."I figured out too, that the model of the natural form of the fifth circle equation i am using to illustrate my tuning model can exactly take the Chas model form for the harmonic case. By replacing the constants with variables (which is equivalent to Mazzolas general model) every inifinite scale can be done as with Chas."...

Good for you, you too have now figured out.

Fine, so you can accept that your model is just a different form of the fifth circle.


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."Your paper with it´s grossly wrong statements about interval progression inversion for the harmonic case and the valid but inevident form of the equal beating duodecime-double-octave equal temperament over other forms of equal temperament..."...

For me, you have lost your bearings. I talk about "inversion" for Chas preparatory tuning, and I talk about equal beating 12ths and 15ths as a result of partials interrelations.

It seems your are not longer familiar with your own statements in your paper.

Quote from section 4.6 of Chas paper:
"The difference curve for these intervals inverts its progression at degree 51. This inversion is determined by the s variable, unique to this model. The same effect, we will see below, is found in degrees relating to ratios 3:2, 3:1, etc."

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Your paper with it´s grossly wrong statements about interval progression is a blame for yourself and for the the anonymous co-authors of the GRIM group, as they did not recognize them before making the paper publicly available."...

What is needed for interrelating all partials, say for playing all partials and coherently stretch all intervals, is a double-octave module. This gains Chas intermodular set, together with the proportional stretch curves for all intervals.

Where is the blame? Why do you blame "anonymous co-authors of the GRIM group"? This is the GRIM group:

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Chi__siamo.htm

Prof.ssa Maria Elena Ajello Liceo Scientifico Cannizzaro Palermo tel. 091-6250651
marilina@katamail.com
Prof. Carmelo Arena Liceo Scientifico "Cannizzaro" Palermo tel. 091 347495
c.arena@libero.it
Prof.ssa Paola Brigalia Dottoranda tel. 3471353082
pbrigaglia@math.unipa.it
Prof. Benedetto Di Paola Assegnista MAT/04 tel. 091 23891053
dipaola@math.unipa.it
Prof.ssa. Maria Lucia Lo Cicero Dottoranda
locicero@math.unipa.it
Dott. Giuliano D'Eredità Dottorando
deredita@math.unipa.it
Prof. Santi George Dottorando
grpsanti@gmail.com
Prof. Luigi Menna Dottorando
luigimenna@yahoo.it
Dott. Mario Ferreri Membro Aggregato tel.091-6681188
mario.ferreri1@tin.it
Prof.ssa Daniela Galante PhD, Conservatorio di Musica di Stato V. Bellini di Palermo tel. 091 421405
danifranco@alice.it
Prof.ssa Brigida Grillo ITC "Libero Grassi" Palermo tel 091-587723
gribic@katamail.com
Prof.ssa Rosa La Rosa (Scuola Media "V.Emanuele" Palermo) tel.091-6681188
mario.ferreri1@tin.it
Prof.ssa Daniela LoVerde tel.091-6819342
Prof.ssa Elsa Malisani PhD, Scuola Media Ribera (AG) tel.0925-544006
schillacimalisani@tiscalinet.it
Prof.ssa. Gianna Manno PhD, Membro Aggregato tel. 328 7414678
giamanno@libero.it
Prof. Gaetano Militello Istituto Tecnico V.E. III Palermo tel. 091-307568
gaetanomilitello@libero.it
Prof.ssa Cristina Mostacci Membro Aggregato tel.0923-921064
cmostac@libero.it
Prof.ssa Francesca Niceta Membro Aggregato tel.091-6852255
fniceta@libero.it
Prof. Perez Emanuele Liceo Scientifico "Einstein" Palermo tel. 091-6823877
messier.104@tin.it
Prof.Francesco Pintaldi
Membro Aggregato tel.091-6523500
pintaldi@libero.it
Prof.ssa Marcella Profumo Liceo Scientifico "Cannizzaro" Palermo tel.091-543174
mprofumo@aliceposta.it
Prof. Aldo Scimone PhD, Istituto Magistrale "F. Aprile" Palermo tel.091-305324
aldo.scimone@libero.it
Prof.ssa Claudia Sortino PhD, Membro Aggregato tel 329 0903595
cla.noc@libero.it
Prof.ssa Natalia Visalli Liceo Classico "Garibaldi" Palermo tel.091-345669
natalia.visalli@gmail.com
Prof.ssa Teresa Marino Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel. 091-23891073
marino@math.unipa.it
Prof.ssa Grazia Indovina Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel.091-308016
indovina@math.unipa.it
Prof.Pietro Nastasi Dipartimento Matematica Università di Palermo tel.091-6477272
nastasi@math.unipa.it

Chas author, as you can read in Chas research report, is me. Now please go and enjoy yourself.


So Chas author is you alone. Why do sign your paper with "CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy)" then?

Why do count up every member of the GRIM group here if not one person of the group was involved in your paper?

My statement about anonymous co-authors of the group was because not one person of the group co-signed your paper. You don´t want to say that every single member of the group has reviewed your paper?
And if so and they did not recognized the wrong statements they had blamed themselves.
And if they were not involved with your paper, you have blamed the group, but surely not me.





Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/06/10 01:46 PM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

Top
#1342371 - 01/06/10 01:44 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Stopper, as I could explain, in my opinion you are not a reliable conversation partner. I take care about my face, so you can do about your face, but please stop arguing by insinuations.

Let me remeber that that you opened your response to my objective falsifications in an abusive way.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

...“All equal temperaments have precise beat curves, this is not an exclusive feature of Chas.
Purity is well defined as abscence of beats. You contradict yourself here.”...

What is the theoretical curve of 19 root of three on 12ths? And theoretical 12 root of two’s on octaves? You may well know about theoretical “abscence of beats”.

You know well that there are way more intervals in those two tunings beside the octaves or duodecimes, which all have a distinct beat curve.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

...“Another wrong statement of your side.
Read my post from June, 9, 09:
"Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET).Chas (in the abscence of onharmonicity, where your s or s/s1 equals 1) is only one possible stretch point among let´s say millions of solutions between the 12th root of two (standard ET) and the 7th root of 1,5 (Cordier ET)."...

Yes, I confirm, I can not read about “validity”. There, you were only banalizing ETs “stretch”, while you may well understand that Chas ± Δ gains a very precise ET. This, in my opinion, may be what you do not like.

I was talking of "solutions". And any solution implies validity.
Did you know that the delta is just a fraction of the pythagorean comma?
The pythagorean comma can of course be determined very exactly. And thus the distribution of the pythagorean comma between duodecimes and double octaves. But with the same precision the pythagorean comma can be distributed in any other tuning. This is not an exclusive feature of Chas.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

My way is describing Chas Theory’s relevance, a way that could also be your way for what concerns 19 root of three. But you have more interest in acting as a destroyer, as a detractor and as a defamer.

And i was just falsifiying the relevance in an objective and provable way. This is a normal process of reviewing in science. Just because you don´t like the results, the reviewer is not a destroyer a detractor and a defamer. What you accuse me to be just because of objective reviewing, is exactly what you are yourself then.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

How to tell you that I find you too arrogant, deceitful and contorted.

I can live with that fact, but such statements are inadequate here.



Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/06/10 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1342450 - 01/06/10 03:39 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper,

Any added line on your part, as any other contortion of yours can only consolidate the relevance of Chas ET Temperament Theory.

I thank you and I wish you all the best,

a.c.

Jeff, you write: “Get real. I have been critical of your paper all along. I posted in an effort to educate you.”

Yes, I think you have indeed. I thank you and I wish you all the best,

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1342935 - 01/07/10 02:28 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


I thank you and I wish you all the best,



I thank you too and i hope you may benefit from our discourse for improvements on your paper, which is the sense of critical reviewing in it´s best case.




Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/07/10 02:38 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1342954 - 01/07/10 03:41 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

… “I thank you too and i hope you may benefit from our discourse for improvements on your paper, which is the sense of critical reviewing in it´s best case.”

CHECK * Best case formula:
1 educator + 1 aspiring salesman = Sense of critical review

Stopper, you are very generous in trying to improve Chas paper. Let me suggest you though to publish your own scientific paper on only-pure 12ths. Only after that you may offer in actual fact your "careful" know-how.

In general and out of my own experience, never confuse yourself with what you are not, in other words: let men of science talk about science and let academic Professors improve scientific papers.

All the best,

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1342973 - 01/07/10 04:50 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Stopper, you are very generous in trying to improve Chas paper. Let me suggest you though to publish your own scientific paper on only-pure 12ths. Only after that you may offer in actual fact your "careful" know-how.



By the way i did a publication about the 19th root of three when i was invited as a contributor for the scientific symposium "Incontro a Bolzano: Scale e harmonie" in italy 1991. (And it has been reviewed by professors) So i am happy that you can accept my offer now.

I wish you good luck.



Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/07/10 05:01 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1342977 - 01/07/10 05:29 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Please, when will you post other recordings of piano tuned by the 2 methods ?

I tried again the fifth inversion of the Alfredo s method, and I dont get what it provide, still thinking.

Anyway I finally had a piano with enough stretch in the medium range, which to my ears is not really the case on the Steinway S recording (at 5 bps the C E 10th or M6, that is too slow to my ears.

So I guess I did not use the same temperament method in the end.


To me, a good part of the lively sensation we have in a piano tuning is due to the acceleration of stretch .

It catch our ears and keep them alive. Then a too large span for tempering is not ideal (but between 12th and 2 octave sounds good to me).

I guess also that purity is good when it is really pure, if it is only sort of pure the effect is not there as much.
But purity is somehow at the opposite of tempering so I understand it may be impossible to really reconciliate we only can go for a set of compromizing as it have been said often there.

Well you can also use a predetermined curve as with a PT100 or some old generation EDT, and put that on the piano saying that justness is only a question of having that curve there and not the piano affair. It will work as well, the piano will be "tuned" and playeable. Our ears seemm to recognize very fast any kind of organisation as soon it is used in a consistent way all along the scale.

I understand that definition of ET is something more evolved those days than it was.

I'll accept any definition, the intention is to have an instrument playeable that can use its own harmony to some point.

What counts in the end is how it tones and how well one can play with the instrument, and other instruments as well.

All of your definitions will be accepted with time, no doubt about that, does not mean that the tuners will change the way they learn to tune (because it is difficult enough to learn to settle pins and manipulate the hammer) but it will or it have yet do something (as Cordier's ideas have also do something, and even Bill Bremmer's option)

Very comfortable to me to look at it from that distance !

Hopefully practically when I tune a piano I am in a known land, and I see generally no many ways to have it sounding right, we have a little discussion with the instrument and found a cordial agreement.

And that is for that I am paid, but probably more often to correct voicing or regulation behaviour (at last this knowledge is way less common, and the time window is not as tight as for the yearly tuning so work conditions are way better !).
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#1342981 - 01/07/10 05:51 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper, this is what I wrote:

Stopper, you are very generous in trying to improve Chas paper. Let me suggest you though to publish your own scientific paper on only-pure 12ths. Only after that you may offer in actual fact your "careful" know-how.

In general and out of my own experience, never confuse yourself with what you are not, in other words: let men of science talk about science and let academic Professors improve scientific papers.

Now you write: "By the way i did a publication about the 19th root of three when i was invited as a contributor for the scientific symposium "Incontro a Bolzano: Scale e harmonie" in italy 1991. (And it has been reviewed by professors) So i am happy that you can accept my offer now."

Please, do not misunderstand. If you are happy with your publication, you can now write more about why and how tuning pure 12ths ET, possibly in your own Topic.

About the rest, this is my advice: never confuse yourself with what you are not, in other words: let men of science talk about science and let academic Professors improve scientific papers.

In simpler words, I suggest you to offer your professional expertise and nothing else.

Say you understand these simple words, I thank you and I too wish you good luck.

Say you do not understand these simple words, I thank you and I too wish you good luck.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#1342999 - 01/07/10 06:52 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello Kamin,

it is not that easy for me, for the time being, to arrange all things and provide more recordings. But I will as soon as I can.

..."I tried again the fifth inversion of the Alfredo s method, and I dont get what it provide, still thinking."...

The way I set 5ths is relating two 5ths with two 4ths and A3-A4 octave (first 4 tuning steps, on centre strings).

..."To me, a good part of the lively sensation we have in a piano tuning is due to the acceleration of stretch."...

To me too.

..."It catch our ears and keep them alive. Then a too large span for tempering is not ideal (but between 12th and 2 octave sounds good to me)."

For concert tuning my temperament span (possibly) is 88 keys.

..."I guess also that purity is good when it is really pure, if it is only sort of pure the effect is not there as much.
But purity is somehow at the opposite of tempering so I understand it may be impossible to really reconciliate we only can go for a set of compromizing as it have been said often there."...

Chas approach and my tuning is pro-beats. I go for beats, just propensity and slow progressive beats for octaves, but still beats. More than "compromising" in the sense of "making the best of a bad job", I compromise in the sense that I draw the progressive beat curve for all intervals.

..."Our ears seemm to recognize very fast any kind of organisation as soon it is used in a consistent way all along the scale."...

I agree, our ear (in my opinion) also recognize an higher degree of harmonicity and resonance, especially on a comparative basis.

..."What counts in the end is how it tones and how well one can play with the instrument, and other instruments as well."...

I agree, too often!

..."All of your definitions will be accepted with time, no doubt about that, does not mean that the tuners will change the way they learn to tune (because it is difficult enough to learn to settle pins and manipulate the hammer)...

In my opinion, the ET zero-beating octave's theory has lost any reference for the tuner, listen to the frustration of many colleagues, to their silence embarrassement when they have to describe 4ths, 5ths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths tuning...would you believe that 12ths and 15ths can routinely invert? This shows you the average degree of confusion, and this is why Chas ET Theory is good news: it describes a scientifically correct model that can finally represent a reliable reference. You can aim at Chas in practice and gain what the Theory describes.

..."Hopefully practically when I tune a piano I am in a known land, and I see generally no many ways to have it sounding right, we have a little discussion with the instrument and found a cordial agreement."...

That is good.

..."And that is for that I am paid, but probably more often to correct voicing or regulation behaviour (at last this knowledge is way less common, and the time window is not as tight as for the yearly tuning so work conditions are way better !)."...

Yeah, correct. The whole thing is "sound production and control", a combination of all dynamics, keyboard's reliability and accuracy, action's timing, strings and structure dynamics. For me, a world of proportions and exactitude.

Best regards,

a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/07/10 06:53 AM)
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alfredo

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#1343019 - 01/07/10 07:44 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


In general and out of my own experience, never confuse yourself with what you are not, in other words: let men of science talk about science and let academic Professors improve scientific papers.

There is no law that reserves reviewing scientific theories to academic professors. You have choosen to publish your paper on a public internet forum and you can not expect that your theory will be accepted like the infallibility of the pope.


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

In simpler words, I suggest you to offer your professional expertise and nothing else.

That is, what i have done with my falsifications of parts of your paper. I have professional expertise in the field of tuning including tuning theory. I repeat myself again as you do often and in simple words: There is no law that reserves reviewing scientific theories to academic professors.

And don´t you see a contradiction in your point of view that reviewing should be reserved to professors, and for yourself as a non-professor you claim the right to create a new theory?

And remember, the hoax example proves what can pass professor reviewing.

As you are a friend of simple words, please answer me this simple question:

Do you agree at least with one of my falsifications?






Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/07/10 11:42 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343177 - 01/07/10 12:52 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
I have noticed in the file info of the most recent version of your paper, that it has been created by Prof. Filippo Spagnolo.

May be he can give a statement here concerning my three falsifiction points?



Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/07/10 01:25 PM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343200 - 01/07/10 01:12 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mr. Stopper:

You may be interested in part of a post on May 25, 2009 in this Topic where Alfredo sort of answered some questions about the publishing of his paper:

”Tooner,

You ask: "Was it checked by the math department?"

Well, what do you think?

"Did you have to defend the paper to a board of professors?"

I had to rewrite the article 3 times, to explain things that on the way had resulted obscure. It took me almost 2 years.

"Did anyone at the University understand it?"

Yes, Chas maths is not that difficult and I'll demonstrate that.

"Did they agree with it?"

They checked Chas maths without playing any other role. We'd better talk about how could anyone disagree, don't you think?”
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1343718 - 01/08/10 05:25 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hi ALfredo,

Because the ear very easely accept stretched octaves and hear them as more consonant at the piano (eventually it ask for it) ther is no problem, the zero beating theory is just that, a theory, I doubt tuners ever used it while I know what Yamaha tuning training is, there is even on the video of the inauguration of the new factory, a CFIIIS grand which is tuned without enough stretch and have a very boring harmony, while being "just", no doubt on that).

Yes as you state, when you use 6:3 you are in the effect of ih, but when you use 2:1 or 4:2 also, I tune octaves so they are sounding well, and avoid the use of m3d M6 as being useless in the end, I am more found of resonance, hence the use of octave (too much, but when tuning constantly the same models you know how your octaves may sound) the fifths, the 12th, double octave, and the FBI as a tool for evenness and a limiter (no scream).

Switching to a larger span and trading octave for 12th and 15th is very well an interesting option, that is easier to produce/listen (I usually check the 12ths so not to have it farther than pure, while I certainly agree it may be easely the case in the high treble and low bass, as the fiths that grows to 6:3 very easely)

I still did not get where lies the effect of the inversion of 5ths/4th, , what it gives practically, on other intervals.

ih is a tool, for the tuner, it is what gives us room for stretch. I am unsure your method is something else than a way to temper (in that case it can be called a new definition of tuning method, but as this is the piano which decide the pitch in Hz of each note, I am unsure it state for a new ET, it is only for the piano, in my view.

Did you try to apply it to an organ ?
is it feasible for a guitar ?
for a singer ?

In that sense, the one who divide the 12th or the one who divide the 5ths are to me more straightforward, as a standard pitch can be used to determine all the pitches so other instruments can be tuned that way.

Not to lower what you find and put words and formula on, but is not it more a practical method than a theory ?

It may be a cultural thing but you (as many defensing their point)seem to insert an unnecessary layer of "marketing" in your presentation, or may be it is emphasis, but anyway that makes me always more doubtful than convinced, by reflex (sorry I dont appreciate advertising that much!)

Sorry if I am wrong there.

Best regards.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1343776 - 01/08/10 08:50 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Mr. Stopper:

You may be interested in part of a post on May 25, 2009 in this Topic where Alfredo sort of answered some questions about the publishing of his paper:

”Tooner,

You ask: "Was it checked by the math department?"

Well, what do you think?

"Did you have to defend the paper to a board of professors?"

I had to rewrite the article 3 times, to explain things that on the way had resulted obscure. It took me almost 2 years.

"Did anyone at the University understand it?"

Yes, Chas maths is not that difficult and I'll demonstrate that.

"Did they agree with it?"

They checked Chas maths without playing any other role. We'd better talk about how could anyone disagree, don't you think?”



Thank you Mr. Deutschle, i just missed that.

I will send a request for a review of my falsifications of several point of the Chas paper directly to Prof. Spagnolo.
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1343885 - 01/08/10 11:25 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi Kamin,

you kindly write:...“Switching to a larger span and trading octave for 12th and 15th is very well an interesting option, that is easier to produce/listen (I usually check the 12ths so not to have it farther than pure, while I certainly agree it may be easely the case in the high treble and low bass, as the fiths that grows to 6:3 very easely)”...

Yes, if I’m not doing pitch raising, on center strings I keep 3:1 12ths, even if I need to wait some time and play a little bit, so to get it stable, and 5ths get even wider than 3:2 (on center strings).

...“I still did not get where lies the effect of the inversion of 5ths/4th, , what it gives practically, on other intervals.”...

In my experience, 4ths and 5ths inversion is needed to S shape the octaves. If I were to talk on three dimensions, I’d say that octaves (pure or stretched) can stretch 3rds, 4ths and 5ths can wring the octaves. Quite similar to what we do when placing a new bass string. And if I do not invert those intervals, I can not get nor justify (gain) good 5ths, octaves, 10ths, 12ths ecc. in the high registers.

I think of 3rds, 4ths 5ths and octaves (and all larger intervals) as one, as a whole, so I set the temperament stretching A3-A4 and stretch 4ths and invert 5ths for gaining wringing octaves.

The rest in a while...a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.
.



Edited by alfredo capurso (01/08/10 11:27 AM)
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#1345092 - 01/09/10 06:58 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello Kamin, there was more you were nicely saying:

...”ih is a tool, for the tuner, it is what gives us room for stretch.”...

Me too, I was taught that we need to stretch octaves because of iH. When I had the opportunity to tune harpsichords for concerts, I realized that I was able to improve resonance and harmonicity by tuning Chas, same sequence, same beats progression, same octaves stretch, perfect superimposition of two (separate/indipendent) tunings. Conclusion:

1) I truly like pure sounding 5ths in the top register, Chas wide-progressive octaves and Chas 12ths Vs 15ths 88 keys even beating, all along the keyboard.
2) Despite iH (and different degrees of iH?), I can still go for Chas, therefore iH is not the driving factor for stretch.

On the theoretical side of it, I realized that 12 root of two ET compromised 3rds and 5ths, it compromised their commas (surely you know about commas), but the real “stretchers” are the octave (for 3rds) and 5th /4ths (for octaves).

Pure-octaves 12th root of two ET, both in theory and practice, produces too narrow 12ths. Am I wrong? So octaves needed to be theoretically stretched as they are stretched in practice. This is so clear to me now, after 25 years of practical observations, reasoning and computing.

Cordier’s 3:2 ET option does stretch octaves, so does 3:1 Stopper’s option. (Ah, by the way, there is still “square root of 9/8” available, anyone wanting to be first and name it?).

But the last obstacle was the theoretical “pure intervals” approach. A “zero-beating” interval does not exist in actual fact and, favoring - in theory or in practice - any particular interval, goes to the detriment of all the others. You well know, pure 5ths produce too wide 3rds and octaves, pure 12ths produce too wide 3rds, 10ths and 15ths, pure octaves produce too narrow 12ths, 19ths.

...“I am unsure your method is something else than a way to temper (in that case it can be called a new definition of tuning method, but as this is the piano which decide the pitch in Hz of each note, I am unsure it state for a new ET, it is only for the piano, in my view.”...

One curious fact. If you read this thread you will realize what some posters say: Chas Theory and model can only be referred to harmonic tones. When I’ve talked about Chas with one pipe-organ tech, he immediately warried about stretched octaves and the many registers that would suffer from that. He said: Chas may work on pianos or for inharmonic tones! Then I worked (30 hours) at a compareson between 2:1 ET and Chas on digital sounds, to prove that stretched octaves sound better even in this case. You can find the details and link posted on this Topic, September 02, 09.

What to say then? Chas resolves the age-old partials conflict, i.e. it finds the precise mathematical ratio that can interrelate frequencies and beats (beats deriving from partials combinations), so frequencies and beats can share the same scale ratio. Is Chas ET a method?

I kindly ask you: is 12th root of two a method?
Would you say that “pure fifths” and “pure 12ths” ETs are methods?
I do not think so, they try to be Theories. A method is a procedure, in fact Chas Pre-form is meant to be that, for gaining Chas Form.

And please notice, Chas Pre-form (for intervals stretching) uses pure 12ths (on center strings), together with pure 5ths (on center strings), for gaining mild stretched and progressive octaves and Chas 88 tones even beating.

Sorry if I needed to split my posts, for time reasons. The first half is my previous post, tomorrow I'll complete my reply.

Best regards, a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/09/10 07:22 PM)
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#1345488 - 01/10/10 06:08 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Voilà...

...“Did you try to apply it to an organ ?
is it feasible for a guitar ?
for a singer ?”...

No, I have not tried Chas on pipe organs. Though I can still hear the many organs I have heard: 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and octaves are tuned chaotic, 12ths and 19ths too narrow, high registers are flat. Is that only me?

I play guitar since I was 10, but I've not done any research. My opinion? Guitar tuning and frets relations can be improved.

Singers (amongst my customers), so far, are very happy with Chas. Maybe this is not the point though, music has been, is been and will be played in any case (opinion).

...“In that sense, the one who divide the 12th or the one who divide the 5ths are to me more straightforward, as a standard pitch can be used to determine all the pitches so other instruments can be tuned that way.”...

By “standard pitch” do you mean “standard pure ratio”? I’m not sure I get the point correctly.

Anyway. What follows is not even maths, but logics (pre-maths):

say you need an X factor for drawing a scale. Say this X factor is an irrational number, like X.fnsutnflhujx... (uncountable). I ask: how do you divide it? How do you multiply it? My logical answer: this approach, in the best case, opens to approximations, since we can not split an irrational number.

Instead of that, Chas fixis a proportion for our X scale factor, the only proportion that can work with any kind of number: 1:1.

Various X scale factors have so far been seeked amongst "pure intervals ratio" and semitone’s size. Chas approaches the X scale factor from the beats side, i.e. with proportional differences relative to partials matchings. I wanted to draw (numerically) progressive intervals, progressive wide octaves and 12ths/15ths even beating, i.e. what I can aim at, with my practical Pre-form tuning. So I wrote:

Be X (irrational) a resulting difference (in beat terms)

I want X to be even for 12ths and 15ths in a geometrical progression (like 12 root of two is).

So, in Chas equation, delta (Δ) stays for X, and I could write:

(3 – Δ) = (4 + Δ).

To get the ET property was enough rooting partial 3 (–Δ) to 19 and partial 4 (+Δ) to 24, in the way partial 2 is rooted with 12.

This is Chas “uncomprehensible” maths:

(3 – Δ)^(1/19) = (4 + Δ)^(1/24) = 1.0594865443501...

...“Not to lower what you find and put words and formula on, but is not it more a practical method than a theory ?”...

I think Chas Pre-form as the practical method to gain Chas Form.

...“It may be a cultural thing but you (as many defensing their point)seem to insert an unnecessary layer of "marketing" in your presentation, or may be it is emphasis, but anyway that makes me always more doubtful than convinced, by reflex (sorry I dont appreciate advertising that much!)”...

Yes Kamin, I think you are right, and I’m quite conscious of my not-very-shareable style. I would ask you not to bother...and still believe (or not) that I’m not selling anything. I’m offering my research results for free.

...“Sorry if I am wrong there.”...

Eventually you can freely decide, and I like the way you approach knowledge in any case.

Best regards, a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/10/10 07:57 AM)
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alfredo

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#1345519 - 01/10/10 08:14 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Thanks a lot Alfredo for your answers and explanations.

I believe I can get my way thru them, and understand how you do that.

What I am unsure is if there is a so large necessity to treat the piano as a large chord, I see that more as an instrument with registers, and I fell the life in the instrument as based on the relation between those registers.

I've find the center 6th and 10ths to be a tad slow on your recording, while once can certainly get used to that, I cant rally make up my mind on where does the general tonal and harmony impression comes from, but our ear (human) ask also for some "falsness" (read "stretch" , may be).

So to have impression of more evenness of tone power, (if related ?) or to gain contrast between medium and treble for instance.

Most good eared pianist probably dont expect their piano to ever be in tune (nor organists may be).

What count is the expressiveness, articulation and why not contrast.
Some pianist hear in their brain, others with their fingers, other with their ears as well - amateur pianists with a little level often are way more exigent for tone than professionals , who knows how to build tone from within the keyboard -

I wonder if the one that like the HT are more listening than thinking "music architecture and articulation", in any case it change (as noticed by PPAT) the way they play and improvise, as a piano with a huge resonance and crispness will be more attractive, as a piano with a very definite energy at the rebound of the hammer will show the way to nuances and touch differences..

Professional pianists are often more exigent (without knowing it) for touch than for tone.

From this point of view, any tuning approach can be good.

As long as touch (tone energy) and harmony (resonance of the instrument in its own spectra) are treated in some way.

I'll read more deeply and try to put in practical way what you have written here, thanks for taking the time.

Not yet talked with my Bros( I guess he is in Switzerland actually).

I suggest that if you come by to Paris I could organize something with the technicians of the CNSM if you like.

I also understood that you have been attacked by Bernhard about the validity of the formula to compute the temperament , those points need to be cleared if possible, if not it is too easy to use them and contest the validity of the approach at large. (Then I also believe that maths can be used to put a mistake where there is none, as have been demonstrated to me by some friends with some mathematic incongruence, maths are an art as such !!)

This is not really important, I trust myself as being able to recognize if some practical method is good and add something or if the cost is too high somewhere.

Probably, most often, any valuable method is optimum for some particular circumstances and less for others.

As tuners I believe that we suspect that always.

Best regards, and I'll give all possible feedback (BTW I'll do the same with pure twelve's as soon as I can have an usable method to tune aurally with the concept)

Have a nice skying afternoon !!









Edited by Kamin (01/10/10 09:10 AM)
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#1345526 - 01/10/10 08:38 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Olek]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kamin

I also state that you have been attacked by Bernhard about the validity of the formula to compute the temperament , those points need to be cleared if possible, if not it is too easy to use them and contest the validity of the approach at large. (Then I also believe that maths can be used to put a mistake where there is none, as have been demonstrated to me by some friends with some mathematic incongruence, maths are an art as such !!)

This is not really important, I trust myself as being able to recognize if some practical method is good and add something or if the cost is too high somewhere.


I don´t find this statement to be true, Isaac.
My critics goes against Alfredo´s attempt to evidentiate Chas over other approaches, not against the validity of the Chas formula.

I falsified the arguments Alfredo used in his paper to make Chas evident over other approaches.
I falsified the statement (section 4.3) in Chas paper that beat inversion occurs because of the s variable, and the statement (section 4.5) in Chas paper that 19th root of three scale develops towards 12th root of three.

Every ET approach has it´s own outcome and all are mathematically valid. I would not having it mentioned here, but Alfredo and you were both refering to the approach i prefer in this thread, so i want to say that what i claim for the apporach i am using, is a maximum of purity and i find it important enough to be noticed as an interesting discovery, as this was not thought to be possible before with the common understanding of ET of whatever size. Some may not like this outcome of purity, but many do.

None of the approaches has more evidence than others, they are a question of personal taste.







Edited by Bernhard Stopper (01/10/10 11:19 AM)
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#1345533 - 01/10/10 08:54 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
thank you for the clearing Bernhard, as I am not a fluent reader of maths (far from that !) I did understood that you posted questions on the validity of the computation or at last the way the formulas are expressed.

The evidence of one other the other is a philosophical and a matter of taste.

I stated yet that the way the Chas theory is presented is deserving it somehow (to me) probably as my crusade for nice unisons !!.

But I also understand very well that one can get a tad obsessive if it took a so long time to do the researches , to understand a way to fight the frustration of musicians and tuners, it finally take may be more importance than it should ... (and it is difficult in our trade, to come with something new !)

Best regards.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1346492 - 01/11/10 07:06 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Olek]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Stopper states:..."Every ET approach has it´s own outcome and all are mathematically valid."...

Quiete reply for completeness sake.

I must precise that "approach" is not the same as "model", and the word “approach” might have been used, there, instead of “model”.

Then, Stopper’s statement may be either wrong (best case), or restrictive (chance), or purposive misleading.

Any geometric progression, maths wise, is equally valid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression

This is true, in fact they are all geometric progressions, anyone could be a model. But if a 12 semitones scale model is needed, not all ETs geometric progressions - 12ths root of two, 3/2 root of 7 etc.) will work the same, and what makes the difference is the theoretical approach, it could be said “the theoretical assumptions” together with the actual target, i.e. our 12 semitones scale.

In Chas case, what makes the difference is the approach to the 12 semitones scale's ratio (as described in previous posts), together with the approach to partial sounds and actual partials matchings (Research report - sections 2.0 and 3.0 - Italian language translated into Oxford English by Liz Poore, Lecturer at the Universities of Torin and Milan, Italy).

..."I would not having it mentioned here, but Alfredo and you were both refering to the approach i prefer in this thread,"...

Nothing wrong with this (referring to and evaluating other models), none of us meant to be damaging.

What is Stopper’s intention (?), when he writes (Topic: Hysterical tunings):

"Dear Bill,...we met 2 years ago at the PTG convention in Anaheim...As i attended your class and listened to your tuning, i have to say that this was the sound character where i am usually phoned by my customers to pass by and do something about. Sincerely, Bernhard Stopper."

Then Stopper states..."so i want to say that what i claim for the apporach i am using, is a maximum of purity and i find it important enough to be noticed as an interesting discovery, as this was not thought to be possible before with the common understanding of ET of whatever size. Some may not like this outcome of purity, but many do."...

Yet, I do not understand why Stopper does not simply start his in-depth descriptive Topic, both for only-pure theory and practical aural tuning of 19th root of 3 ET.

Also, my logics does not help me to make the following addiction (+):

...Every ET approach has it´s own outcome and all are mathematically valid (+)

...what i claim...is a maximum of purity (+)

...i find it important enough to be noticed as an interesting discovery, as this was not thought to be possible before with the common understanding of ET of whatever size (+)

...None of the approaches has more evidence than others, they are a question of personal taste... = (?)

Quiete comment: About Stopper’s falsifications, I happen to have explained why I prefere Time to produce his/her effects, simply due to personal targets (opinion), manners-barrier and mistrust (on my part). So, I cannot even accept that role-play, Stopper asking about things that either he has already understood (I think he has the numbers - opinion), or he could ask to understand in a educated form. Not to mention the recent (my opinion) shameful, deceitful and revengeful attempt to squeeze Chas Theory into an easy-get-by gimmick.

Nevertheless, my human respect is solid.

Any other Colleague in need of more explainations may well post, I’ll be happy to contribute.

a.c.

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):

http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

CHAS Tuning MP3 (Granpianoman) on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (01/11/10 12:03 PM)
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#1373690 - 02/14/10 02:59 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Jake, you write:

..."But can someone catch me up on what's happened since actual recordings of the Stopper and the CHAS became available?"...

Nothing really happened, as I say it takes time.

..."In that long thread, there was talk of Alfredo coming to the States to demonstrate an actual tuning, and people giving up on the discussion entirely,"...

The two things may go separatelly. Kent Swafford subsequently proposed October 2010, as this February a PTG seminar is taking place in Kansas City. And more than others, it was me who needed a rest from this Topic.

..."and a wish to have Bernhard Stopper in attendance."...

I wish Stopper had helped me to renew the whole ET horizon, though I cannot avoid being optimistic...you never know.

..."Not a fight over who has found the only valid temperament."...

May I ask you how old you are? That is wise of you.

..."A book, really, with chapters by each person and possibly critiques, and of course sound examples. A dvd with lectures and demonstrations?"...

All this is not easy nor direct, for many reasons... anyway Isaac Oleg is doing a lot and I hope we'll all manage to contribute, one way or another.

..."Or has everyone stopped talking?"...

I have not. Thank you and regards, a.c.

.
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