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#2206307 - 01/01/14 11:51 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy

To ALL,


...(((*20 HAPPY NEW YEAR 14*)))...


Alfredo



CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Professor Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010:
Italian - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Chas Tunings (piano solo):
http://www.chas.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=44&lang=en

With orchestra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ9BYCbJOfs
_________________________
alfredo

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#2398307 - 03/15/15 07:58 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By Tunewerk
Alfredo, tuning a piano to a high level is in the end, an artistic process. Pianos and the inner ear have peculiarities, based on subjective perception, that isn't the domain of science.

I don't think anyone would deny that you are an artist of tuning after listening to the sound you've produced in recordings. However, it is arrogant to infer that intelligent technicians do not widely understand that ideal 12-TET tuning is based on more than one prime geometric curve other than (2/1)^x.

What you proclaim has been known formally since Stopper introduced the concept back in 1988. I'd argue he had to have had the same, or deeper, understanding to have realized the pure 12th was near the ideal solution in terms of bisecting the relevant curves. Yes, there are perhaps many still in the dark, but in the end these differences in practice are small.

If you really want to prove your case, a good idea might be to go back to your paper and correct the many errors in logic/proof that are there. I'm sure you can produce an excellent tuning, but I don't think you understand the basis behind what you are doing beyond the artistic sense. In the religious devotion to your idea, you seem to have become almost blinded in defense of what you regard as the only 'correct' solution.


The above quote was posted four days ago in "temperaments and tuning - why it matters for pianists".

Tunewerk, IMO it was off Topic. For me that came out of the blue and I do not think I want to engage on another discussion. See, perhaps if you manage to be less vague you will find others that are willing to add on.

As for my research, for those who want to know more, it is presented, described and discussed in this thread, and also here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2194834/CHAS_for_Dummies.html

Sorry for all the 'noise' you may have to go through.

To All, have a nice Sunday.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2399407 - 03/17/15 06:58 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Tunewerk,

Just to add some thoughts. Perhaps - in some way - you wanted to let me know that you have acknowledged the 'ideal' solution, and you did it.. in your way. In which case, this is to say that I did get it, and that I am sincerely glad for you.

You wrote also other things, on what was known before, about 'intelligent technicians', about errors in the Chas paper and about me, things that imo do not necessarily deserve a discussion.

Two passages though require some clarification.

The first, when you say "...pure 12th was near the ideal solution in terms of bisecting the relevant curves."

That still is. Both in theory and practice, pure 12th is near the ideal solution. Also other ratios happen to be 'near' the ideal solution, and we need to consider them, aiming at the beat curves we want when we actually tune a piano. This, I believe, is something that many expert aural tuners are well aware of, with or without theoretical background.

The second, where you write "...there are perhaps many still in the dark, but in the end these differences in practice are small."...

See, on the one hand, I do not think we need to promote approximation. Pianos, their dynamic nature together with the human/skill factor, already impose a fair amount of approximation; can't remember where I read this, but also in my experience 'small differences' can indeed make a big difference. On the other hand.. perhaps recently you have noticed how the ancient theoretical idea of 'pure' intervals and 'consonance' can affect our practical approach, and that (imo) is not at all a question of how 'intelligent technicians' are. This is to say that perhaps it is better not to digest a(ny) pure_interval ratio as if that was irrelevant, negligeable (in theory) or academic (in practice).

Last, I am not defending 'my solution', there is no need, I am simply trying to share it. If you are aware of other 'correct' solutions do not hesitate, start sharing.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (03/17/15 07:17 PM)
Edit Reason: Form
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alfredo

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#2545807 - 06/02/16 10:05 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 829
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Alfredo,

After years practice with ET and some WT flavors, I would like to explore the CHAS again for my hammer skill improve a lot. Should you send me the link the the CHAS procedure again?

Regards
_________________________
Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#2548611 - 06/11/16 08:49 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By Weiyan
Hi Alfredo,

After years practice with ET and some WT flavors, I would like to explore the CHAS again for my hammer skill improve a lot. Should you send me the link the the CHAS procedure again?

Regards


Hi Weiyan,

I am glad to hear from you.

I found the link to the first edition in the CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING thread, here on PW:

http://api.ning.com/files/DWLXHPDu0*UDEYxdq5G3IqO5z6EC08cwgCNjc1bPYFkj*S9JQvW2c9Rz*UNZM02v0r-GsgtwUjBp2ECV88YyrKP5sfkbz-NO/CHAS_PrepSeqFlowChart.pdf

You can record your tunings, if you like, as you did before and I will be happy to hear them.

Are you still devoted to calligraphy? Is it bird_singing time in Hong Kong?

Kind regards,

a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2548714 - 06/12/16 05:05 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 829
Loc: Hong Kong
Thanks. Devoted to photography too. I am searching some method to solve the fast beating Kawai.
_________________________
Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

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#2548824 - 06/12/16 01:06 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 2322
Loc: Mexico City
Thanks for sharing Alfredo.

I've read your paper.

Isn't there a typo in the first diagram, step 11? The arrow goes from A#4 to F4 instead of going from A#3 to F4.

I have a question: in step 12 you tune G4 from D4 instead of continue to tune the circle by tuning C4 from F4 and then G4 from C4, is there a special reason to finish the circle backwards from D4 to G4 to C4?

And a last question, when do you tune the unisons of the first 13 notes, i. e. A4, A3, D4, E4, B3, F#4, C#4, G#4, D#4, A#3, F4, G4 and C4?

Do you tune them as you go or later?


Edited by Gadzar (06/12/16 01:07 PM)
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Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2549044 - 06/13/16 10:21 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Gadzar]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By Gadzar
Thanks for sharing Alfredo.

I've read your paper.

Isn't there a typo in the first diagram, step 11? The arrow goes from A#4 to F4 instead of going from A#3 to F4.

I have a question: in step 12 you tune G4 from D4 instead of continue to tune the circle by tuning C4 from F4 and then G4 from C4, is there a special reason to finish the circle backwards from D4 to G4 to C4?

And a last question, when do you tune the unisons of the first 13 notes, i. e. A4, A3, D4, E4, B3, F#4, C#4, G#4, D#4, A#3, F4, G4 and C4?

Do you tune them as you go or later?


Hi Rafael,

Thank you for your reply and for checking that document. You are right, the one I posted was the first edition, I should have posted the link to the second edition, together with my thanks to Ernest Unrau from Canada, for editing the Chas preparatory sequence. Here it is:

http://www.chas.it/docs/CHAS_PrepSeqFlowChart.pdf

You wrote: ..."I have a question: in step 12 you tune G4 from D4 instead of continue to tune the circle by tuning C4 from F4 and then G4 from C4, is there a special reason to finish the circle backwards from D4 to G4 to C4?"...

Yes, though the reason has to do more with "feeling" than science: after F4 I deliberately break the sequence in order to reduce (edit: delimit) approximations that may have summed up; instead, I re-check A3-D4 and tune G4 from an original reference, i.e. from D4. When you tune A#3, you can place the M3 A#3-D4 in between A3-C#4 and B3-D#4, when tuning G4 you can place the M6 A#3-G4 in between A3-F#4 and B3-G#4. Last, C4 needs to 'satisfy' C4-E4 (and all 3rds from A3-C#4 in progression), C4-F4 (remember to get a 4th clearly audible progression from C#4-F#4 to E4-A4) and C4-G4.

..."And a last question, when do you tune the unisons of the first 13 notes, i. e. A4, A3, D4, E4, B3, F#4, C#4, G#4, D#4, A#3, F4, G4 and C4? Do you tune them as you go or later?"...

I tune the unisons later. On a grand, I mute and tune only middle strings from the tenor break up to the treble break, perhaps a few dumped notes are left out; on an upright I mute the middle range, set the curve on middle strings only and then tune the unisons, then expand on to the trebles, unisons as I go.

Kind regards,

a.c.

Edit: On grands, I tune and unison the trebles as explained in that document, at the end; on an upright I expand by unisoning the whole three strings.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/13/16 01:43 PM)
Edit Reason: adding + typo
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#2550395 - 06/18/16 07:43 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi All,

One consideration about the sequence I normally use, and I would welcome comments from experienced tuners.

When I posted the flow-chart I was told this:

#1791859 - November 19, 2011 11:20 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]

Bill Bremmer RPT:

..."However, that is what tuners have been doing in the USA now for over 30 years with far more clearly written instructions on how to do it."...

Today I still believe that there are some significant differences.

Right at the beginning, the preparatory sequence defines strict relations (beats-per-second) between A3-A4, A3-D4, A3-E4, D4-A4 and E4-A4, five intervals that must be tuned as a whole. Here, the two overlapping fifths will temporarily 'temper' the tone, that is D4-E4; the two fourths, A3-D4 and E4-A4, will temporarily set the tuning curve. Differencies in bps are quite easy to hear, once you are familiar with SBI's.

The next "whole" to be considered is the series (and beat-progression) of three chromatic thirds, A3-C#4, A#3-D4, B3-D#4, plus C#4-F4.

The greater whole is the series (and beat progression) of five chromatic fourths, C4-F4, C#4-F#4, D4-G4, D#4-G#4 and E4-A4 (beats will be clearly progressive), together with thirds, fourths, fifths and sixths within the A3-A4 compass.


Kind regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (06/18/16 07:46 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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alfredo

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#2550401 - 06/18/16 09:30 PM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: alfredo capurso]
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 1159
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Yes Alfredo, can you elaborate on the part where you tune the four chromatic thirds? What method do you use to determine the fast beat speeds? For example, how do you know where to place the C#4 so the beat speed is correct? An experienced aural tuner will have a feel for the right speed and correct it if needed when the other thirds come in using the already established D4 and E4, but a beginner may need a method to make it easier.
_________________________
Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2550482 - 06/19/16 10:35 AM Re: CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM - CHAS [Re: Chris Leslie]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1238
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By Chris Leslie
Yes Alfredo, can you elaborate on the part where you tune the four chromatic thirds? What method do you use to determine the fast beat speeds? For example, how do you know where to place the C#4 so the beat speed is correct? An experienced aural tuner will have a feel for the right speed and correct it if needed when the other thirds come in using the already established D4 and E4, but a beginner may need a method to make it easier.


Hi Chris,

Imo, beat perception - wide/narrow side - pitch stability, still are challenging issues even for the experienced tuner.

As you say, even the experienced tuner needs to go back and refine intervals that had already been tuned. In this sense, the 'method' for beginners can be the same, they too have to tune intervals temporarily, knowing that they may have to correct them if needed.

In time (hopefully), it gets easier to perceive and compare beat speeds, to make sure that intervals are on the correct (wide/narrow) side and to achieve a fair control over pitch stability.

More specifically onto your question: I make sure that A3-D4-E4-A4 are on the correct side, very very close to the correct beat speed, not too difficult since the beat speeds of A3-D4 and E4-A4 are sensibly different.
Then, when tuning F#4 I use my musical ear to evaluate the sixth A3-F#4, and tuning C#4 I need to 'satisfy' (both musically and beat-wise) the relation between A3-C#4 and A3-F#4, having the forth (C#4-F#4) and fifth (B3-F#4) constrains. In my mind, I visualize A3-D4-E4-A4 as in two dimensions, and B3-F#4, A3-F#4, F#4-C#4, A3-C#4 adding one dimension, as we are now bonding one third (A3-C#4), one fourth (C#4-F#4), one fifth (B3-F#4) and one sixth (A3-F#4), SBI's and RBI's together, as in a whole.

As you say, once you get to A#3, you can compare three chromatic thirds A3-C#4, A#3-D4 and B3-D#4, thirds that Imo are fairly 'readable', perhaps more readable than C#4-F4 and F4-A4 which are used in contiguous_thirds sequences. And I believe that the chromatic thirds progression together with chromatic fourths progression (C#4-F#4, D4-G4, D#4-G#4 and E4-A4, as in the Chas preparatory sequence) helps me gain progressive sixths as well. Perhaps this can be verified by others?

Today I seem to be faster in getting close to the beat speeds I want, but... perhaps also my perception has improved smile so, like a beginner, I go back and correct any interval, if needed. In time, one can memorize better what is left behind, get a larger 'picture' in a way, make gestures more fluid and manage to tune_and_refine the tuning as part of the true process.

Kind regards, a.c.
.
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alfredo

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