Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Kawai RX2 sounding upper harmonics in bass

Actually, I think that is what I said....

ddf

del, you may be right that the sounds mike is describing in his bass can't be accounted for by tuning.

however, i respectfully submit that the right tuning might very effectively distract his attention away from that sound, and instead draw his attention to the beauty that is in the instrument.

i attended kawaidon's tuning workshop at a ptg convention a few years ago, and was deeply impressed with how two RX-2s could sound so completely different--one bright and brash and lots of beating, the other calm and sweet and mellow and singing--all simply because of the difference in stretch characteristic in the tuning.

i have that longitudinal thing going on in my piano's bass, too, but when i have the right tuning on my piano, it doesn't really bother me.

so much of our experience at the instrument is a matter of where we choose to put our attention...

in any event, changing the tuning is a very cheap experiment compared to changing the bass strings--or buying a different piano. and i seriously doubt mike is up for redesigning the string scale on his kawai.

as you and others have said, he'd have been better served by only buying a piano he's in love with.

people reading these forums, pay attention! if you are picky about tone, do not buy a "good deal"! buy the one you fall in love with!*

*credit to larry fine.

More to the point in this case, I think, is, don't ever, ever! buy a piano fresh out of the box. Not even a piano that has a good reputation for consistency of manufacture.

Unless I’m misreading this whole thread Mike bought his piano on the promise that it would be tuned and voiced—presumably to his satisfaction—in his home after the sale. He had no idea, really, what this particular piano was going to sound like; only the dealer’s promise that a technician would be out to tune it and voice it after it was delivered and set up in his home. In my view this is always dangerous both for the buyer (especially) and for the dealer.

You, at least, knew that the piano you selected did, at one time, sound just like you wanted it to sound. There was some difficulty in getting it sounding like that but you knew the piano was capable. Mike does not have this assurance. He has never heard his piano sounding the way he wants a piano to sound.

Variations in tuning may or may not distract his attention from the longitudinal mode harmonics that are bothering him. Personally—and this is based on lots and lots of experience—I doubt it. Once a certain set of longitudinals starts to really bother a pianist it is rare that either voicing or tuning will make enough change or improvement to overcome those sounds. These things can be pretty obnoxious in some pianos, especially if that piano started out a bit on the bright side.

In the best of all possible Mike Worlds he would exchange the piano with another from the same dealer but this time he would make sure that the piano was properly prepped in the store and he would play it long enough and with enough different types of music to become basically familiar with its idiosyncrasies. He would then be able to decide with reasonable confidence that these are idiosyncrasies he can live with. Or not.

ddf

There's kind of a half-truth there. You can ask, but what if the tech, for instance, says, "Sorry, that can't be done." He's not treating you like crap any more than a doctor would be who says, "Sorry, but that cancer treatment won't work."

I make every effort to treat customers respectfully, and attempt to meet whatever reasonable expectations they might have, but if I find that the customer has standards that the instrument cannot deliver, I politely suggest another tuner.

+1

mike, if you can do this, it's probably your best solution. does the dealer let you trade in for what you paid towards another piano? does he guarantee your satisfaction?

I think the point is that you can't buy a piano and then expect the maker or dealer to go through contortions to make it customized to your own standards. Every type of musical instrument has its own characteristics. What some people hate others will love.

You can't buy a Ford Focus and then complain to the dealer that it doesn't perform like a Lexus.

Well put, Ryan. Being treated like "crap" cuts both ways.

Thank you so much for all your help here, I am so grateful. What you say here is quite true. I bought this piano with budget in mind first, then sound. I heard the problems, but assumed these could be rectified with tuning and voicing, but they were not.

Now I approached the dealer, who's manager of the piano department AND a long term friend of mine. He has been very accommodating for me in changing two pianos so far.

He is aware of these longitudinal mode harmonics and I told him these can happen in other makes of pianos, and it is NOT only Kawai.

I have realized that what I could really fall in love with is a piano with a bass sound that is to my liking - and am very fond of the low, deep sounding bass. This I have found on the Kawai RX6 and RX7. I love both these pianos.

I played the RX7 today and it had no longitudinal mode issues. The sound had me almost in tears. It was so beautiful. I am in negotiation with the dealer and Kawai's head office to organize a deal and (hopefully) a price I can afford. Yes, my good friend the dealer has offered to exchange my RX2 for another piano. I am ok about buying another Kawai, (they are a Kawai dealership) as I really like them. The touch is gorgeous, and the scale design is to my liking, especially the bigger grands. I will also consider the RX6 when they get one in. But I think I am closer now to the piano that I can really love for the rest of my life. I am having sleepless nights worrying about all this.

Pianos in Australia sell at outrageous prices compared with the USA, as I have gained information on these forums. Hence my worry in these recession times!

Pique is right about buying the piano we fall in love with. So true and important! I should have done it in the first place - lesson learned here....

Also thanks Del for your excellent advice. I am most grateful to all of you.

My wonderful friends I thank you and God Bless!

I will let you all know how things work out. I have this positive feeling that all will be well eventually!

Best wishes,
Michael

Del said this: "Variations in tuning may or may not distract his attention from the longitudinal mode harmonics that are bothering him. Personally—and this is based on lots and lots of experience—I doubt it. Once a certain set of longitudinals starts to really bother a pianist it is rare that either voicing or tuning will make enough change or improvement to overcome those sounds. These things can be pretty obnoxious in some pianos, especially if that piano started out a bit on the bright side."

It is true what Del says here, these Longitudinal mode sounds are indeed so loud and obvious that no variations in tuning would make any difference. The sound is very loud and takes the place almost of the fundamental tone. My ear finds it extremely distracting. Also after the regulation, the piano is much brighter and these tones are accentuated.

Thanks Pique, Yes the dealer will allow me to exchange the piano for another with full refund. I will let you know what happens!

Hi, I also got the same issue with my rx-3 - and also posted some requests here - and I got to the conclusion the issue was the position of my piano in the room. I moved it away from the closest wall (flat side of the piano was facing it) and it magically disapeared. Also, the piano is sounding uch better since then. Unbelievable.

The sound of a piano is allways a compromise between itself and the sourounding environment, which can be more o less responsive. If you could minimize the impact (maximize the damping charactirists) of the environment, the piano would sound dull and dead.
So, try different positions for your RX-2 in the room and you'll find a new and more beatifull piano. Kind regards, ZéH.

You are late to the game. He's already gotten rid of the RX-2 and got a RX-6.

Different positions in the room will do nothing.

Thanks for your replies.. Yes I did change pianos, as the RX2 did not have the bass tone that I like. It is a good piano though - but had some problems with the copper wound bass strings. The ringing upper partial sound in a few notes was really bad. If anyone has this problem I would suggest they change the strings of the offending notes.

I tend to agree with you here. The ringing bass notes were apparent in the showroom and also in my house.

Yes thanks Pique,
The dealer offered to swap pianos for me. Thet gave me a very good deal on the RX6G, which is a much bigger piano and it does have the bass I am after. It sounds wonderful! It also has NO ringing bass notes! It only has a little bit of sympathetic "ringing" when I play VERY loud and hard. But this is to be expected - it is the piano "complaining"! This piano is a different instrument totally to the RX2H!