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Well for the price i paid for three of my pianos is way cheaper than getting a brand new one. Not only the price but the quality itself. The question is do you actually know who can do a perfect job? Well what are we looking for? good question. the subject here is adult beginner. so as any consumer include myself getting a piano for my as a beginner, i would like to try something less expensive until it develop my interest then trade in if i want to pursue to my upper grades. You will be surprised that my yamaha and wagner (coming soon) will be in an excellent row together with my petrof. You can come and try it in my place.

You are welcome!

The Sauter dealer is Raffles Piano, located at the VCH. You might want to call ahead because Alvin isn't always there. I don't know which upright models he has in the showroom now. The ones that I was referring to were at the Sauter booth at the Frankfurt Musikmesse last March. Alvin and I were selecting pianos for him to order for his stock. I was there, on the way to visit the Sauter factory near Stuttgart and say "hi" to my unfinished piano.

There is no harm going to play on Tier 1 instruments (and not just Sauter) even if you aren't buying. You at least have a reference point.

Thanks for all the info. Will take note of them while shopping.

Max- U seem to suggest that yesteryears piano were created using trial and tested material and technology whereas todays piano are using "experiential" material and tech, so not sure these will last anot. Did i interpret it correctly?

ok.. back to work.

I was told that usually its the strings that go after 20-30 years due to fatigue. But hey.. save a $1000 a year, after 30 years can afford to buy $30000 new piano no?

Balefire, back in the states ever since i visited couple of piano shops, manufacturers, i suddenly took piano as an interest. a past time. i got this book that i got there showing all parts of the piano including rebuilding, making a piano. I was impressed by the older times where the standard of making piano had to use different materials such as different woods. Nowadays, the piano industry especially in China and Indonesia do not. You can judge as the price you pay is what you get. Comparing to petrof is different. prices keep going up for petrof pianos. the technology and the parts are fully from Czech. Even in the website shows that the spareparts are even in the catalog. I am amazed with the technology and the action of petrof. Have anyone know the downfall of Yamaha on making pianos in Indonesia. Inside sources mentioned the quality is different is because of the wood they used there. So the value and price paid is what you get. However easy said than done. Sooner or later the consumers around the world would know how the pianos in the market are. The good ones? How sure are you? Maybe some adjustment on it. Several colleagues of mine had been tricked to buy a used piano rather than a new one. You never know whether it is new or used nowadays unless it is from a respective dealer or a company that provides you a guarantee rather than a warranty. Only few places in Asia that i know do guarantee as i know they provide it as they had the expertise to ensure that the piano is in good condition and a after sales service. I would rather buy a piano whereas i could get an after sales service rather than to think of what to do.

Dodgyblue, all i can say is a piano has wear and tear due to the time length and the weather conditions. It is true you can afford to buy a new one. Why does repairing, reconditioning cost so expensive that you can even buy a new one? It is simply because the piano industry especially the main manufacturer would prefer to you to buy a new one. Not only you get a new one and in the manufacturer view is the profit. See if you send one to rebuild and recondition how much profit will they get and do you know doing a rebuild and recond takes alot of time, workmanship and materials. How can we all prevent this? Ensure you had a professional tuner come to check your piano one a while. Tuned it and check the condition. How much could you pay for tuning rather than saving it up couple bucks later when the piano needs repairing and it will kills your wallet. An analysis i checked on why people actually do rebuilding and major repairing for an old piano is because it is a sentimental piano where the piano grew up with them. Give an example if you had a nice car, would you take to service once a while? You paid so much for it, of course you had to maintained it. Hope this philosophy helps. Take care dudes

Very interesting facts.

For cars
ppl don't mind, paying for new tyres, say Michelin energy or Yokohama Aspec. don't mind paying for synthetic mobil1. When aircon spoil, change compressor, change evaporator. Change sports rim, cheng this, cheng that, fix woofer, change K&N filter, sent for polymer polishing service, fix V-kool(even picanto got V-kool ok), Fix Alpine HU....
Iridium spark plug?? when $4 NGK does the job. Pump shell Vpower... fix fake Brembo caliper cover...

But come to piano..... ___________ pls fill in

Ok for piano, people will pay for new hammerheads, new springs, new case, new action as you mentioned as to cars?
I doubt it as people tend to save because cars you need it on daily usage rather than piano especially going to work. Ya there are people playing piano everyday. Ya wat about the ratio of piano playing to driving cars. People drives cars more than playing piano and the maintenance of cars are more than piano

Well looks like i need to keep this posts going. After doing an analysis for my clients on piano development in Asia. I finally met up with an expatriate to help set up and open a piano shop in Malaysia. In his business plans shows the market analysis and market strategy. It looks like nowadays, people tend to be in an economical way. People tend to buy more on Yamaha U1 as it is still cheap in the malaysia market. I am surprise to get a price lists from most of the companies in singapore and malaysia. The prices are not so far different. but compare to malaysia and singapore, the prices in singapore is still more expensive. No wonder most customers getting pianos from malaysia even including transportation is still cheaper

Maxlee, I can't agree with you.

1st off, your post few days ago, you introduce "guarantee" instead of "warranty". I do not know your agenda but by common sense, in a business, guarantee do not exist. Warranty is the after sales service that is always provided to customers.
If you mean guarantee by 1-to-1 replacement, then I would say that's warranty as well, because that would only happen when the piano itself has serious manufacturing issue, isn't it?
Guarantee, for me, pure sales hype. Period.

I cannot agree more that the general rule of thumb you pay what you get. So, you pay Yamaha to get Yamaha, you pay Hailun to get Hailun. It is to my surprise (well, no longer anymore) that Hailun is actually producing better pianos than Yamaha, yet comes cheaper! Of course, Yamaha is Yamaha, coming from Japan (not talking about GB1 and other upright models), so command better sales.
Well, perhaps we cannot agree fully on you pay what you get for if you want to mean it in term of material quality. I do feel I paid more or less a few bucks to Yamaha for sales tactics and marketing decision if I were to commit a purchase of Yamaha.

You said it's manufacturers who want you to but the new one so that you won't bother rebuild it other than sentimental value. I feel that it's very wrong. It's the technician who sets the price above than the manufacturers' new pianos, not manufacturers to meet a lower price than the technician overhauled cost, isn't it? Well, I do have to agree manufacturers do produce products that can compete at a low price point but it's simply overhauled cost being too expensive instead of piano price being too cheap.
Overhauled/reconditioned/rebuilt cost, as in, make an old piano new but not new.

Finally, and most importantly, Malaysia's pianos are not cheap and compared to the information I have from the fellow members here, it is MORE expensive than Singapore, excluding import duties and taxes yet!
U1 is bought most of the time is because the teachers usually promote this model. Well, I have to agree this model is robust enough to sell, but actual fact in Malaysia is not merely its own quality. Teachers' recommendation, followed by a commission by the owner of the piano shop, is the way people run the business here. And teachers' testimonies are usually enhanced because U1 is probably the piano that most students practise and play on in the academy.
If you are saying U1 being cheap, then you must be seeing U1J.
The only time Yamaha price in Malaysia can compete with Singapore is when the Yamaha Fair is being held.
That's it, period.

"After doing an analysis for my clients on piano development in Asia."

Hi Maxlee,

For some reasons, after reading your posts, you make me very interested to want to find out more about you. You sounds like you have lots of contacts in terms of piano industry? Are you working for a company which studies on the piano demands in Asia? Is there such a company? I see that you don't mention much in your profile either. Care to share some background about yourself? Haha, ya, I am a KPO person =)

Hey tanjinjack,

I do not blame you for not agree with me.

Well 1st of all what is the difference with guarantee and warranty. You may lost this point. Only few established company especially in Malaysia do offer as they can fix the whole piano and after sales service. I understand this when i was back to Malaysia. What i learned is that warranty do not provide most of the spareparts for 3 years. Imagine if there is something wrong in three years, the company will change another one for you. The question is why they do that? Is there a sales tactic? I refer to this company over 80 to 90 years specialize in piano restoration, manufacturing and etc in malaysia.

Well did you check the latest price for Hailun and Yamaha. The price is way different. You better check with your local dealer as i am checking to a sole agent, distributor and importer in malaysia. well indeed yamaha is still a higher demand but what about the after sales service and the expertise in providing the additional spareparts for three years. Not only several yamaha factories are closing. even ther only in taiwan is closing up soon offering a low price where i was staying in taiwan.
Regards to the overhaul and restoration, i am still looking for the article when i was studying in states, it shoes that most manufacturer recommend you to purchase a new one because of the price and time of restoration and craftmanship. It shows that the profit margin would be different if you really comapre. I would be glad to show you a checklist if you are interested. Futhermore, why do people want to restore a 40 to 60 years old piano? It is really a sentimental value rather than to buy a new one.

Well i do not agree, i think you really need to check your market price. You can get a much cheaper piano in malaysia rahter than in singapore. Based on the customs that i checked on line there is no t a high charge of it. Do you know that if you are a manufacturer, you do not even pay anything for it. DO you realise that not only yamaha fair, there are wearhouse sale, mid year sale in malaysia that offer better price. if you mention in price factor. futher more, the teachers do get a comission for any piano sale i strictly agree. but do you know that nowadays anyone can get. it is wheter you can sell any. haha. Futhermore, maybe you may not agree with my point of view. but i am not only saying but based on real facts. It is better for me to justify something with real facts. rather than beat around the bush.

JinJack, do you have a flame suit ?? hehehe
Got oxygen, fuel, you got lot of sparks ....hehehe

Anyway, slowly, no need to probe, the truth will come out.
The way its written is clear.

We are here to learn and share, and to benefit from good information.
Whats the use of controversy issues and arguments?

Most of all, i believe we are also here to share jokes and happenings here in SG and MY, some related to piano, others might not, some are cheeky jokes .. hehe

Hey Bihua,

Thanks for your compliment. Well i am just a simple person. Well when i was in USA, i was interested in learning all about piano. I managed to meet alot of professionals and manufacturers there. When i came back, they gave me some manufacturers, sole agent, importer adn distibutor in malaysia and singapore. When i was back 4 years ago, managed to visit the factory in malaysia. well if you need to know more, PM me. hehe. well enough of my history. hehe. I do have alot of network in the piano industry throught the world. I am actually doing my own business in malaysia helping expatriats in setting up a new company in asia. Well in doing this business required me to do alot of research and analysis. I managed to have a bigger network in properties, equipment and etc. Well this is all i could sat for you bihua. Well if you do not mind being a friend, you can email me personbally in max_lee888@hotmail.com.

Oops i forgot something. I just got this message from the 1st piano manufacturer on the history for malaysia and singapore. I just realized that the king of piano for 80 over years have his generations in malaysia still here, for 4th generations. Please refer to the websites below for more history, knowledge and information:

http://wagnermusicshop.blogspot.com/
http://www.wagnerpiano.com/about.htm
http://wengleemusic.blogspot.com/

Hope this helps. Take care

Should top it up with "Eno" fruit salt"(original flavour) or 3-legged brand drink. Cool down lah.

No la, I just feel that he is coming up with some so-called facts that I do not agree on.

Maxlee, I do not intend to flame up this thread.
I will end this. If it fails to end, I would simply ignore.

That's all about warranty T&C already. Of course, you need to be careful to read the T&C for the warranty and bargain for the best. People, well at least Malaysians, tend to be ignorant about warranty T&C. As long as the consumer stands in the T&C, he would receive the spareparts if necessary.

Restoring/rebuilding pianos are probably for sentimental value, except for those M&H, Steinway, Bluthner etc. in their respective golden era. But those are rare hit in Malaysia.

I really think it's you who needs to check the price, comparing model to model, AFTER discount. With keen competition in Singapore, I found out the street price in Singapore is found out to be cheaper in Malaysia where the discount is not as steep as in Singapore. List price is about the same I believe.
I am talking about new pianos. It's just too many factors involved for price in used pianos market - which is the dominant market in Malaysia. Warehouse sales, probably, applies to used pianos market more.
I highlight teachers getting commission is because Yamaha has a lot of academies in Malaysia.

Period.

i think warranty claim is 1 out of 1000? 10000? pianos. can't find the link. i remember reading it in the forum. therefore, lifetime, 10 years or whatever the warranty period it is not as as important as the after-sales service from the dealer or seller.

there will never be a market for rebuilt pianos in the southeast asia. i think it is because nobody knows how to appreciate those pianos. furthermore, many of these pianos are over 50+ years old and no one will pay such $$$ for that age, even if is rebuilt with great attention and care.

commission runs in every industry; pianos, weapons, building materials and so on till the list never ends.

as to why used pianos are doing so well is because of the high commission. i heard some get as high as 30%. that is really big $$$ i.e. $5000.00 piano and u get $1500. all u need to do is to tell the parents this piano is good i have tested it... phew.. no overhead no worries about warranty calls. in addition, i think there is not standard or set price on used pianos. thus dealer could have imported or bought it at very low price and reconditioned it. ya... recondition like some major repairing work when its nothing put polishing, cleaning and tuning. then mark-up the price as he/she wishes 200-300%, depending to the brand and cabinet condition of course and there u have plenty of bullets to offer as commission.

on the other hand, new piano imported have a price set by the factory and thus the mark-up is very limited. as a result the % on the commission doesn't attach those teachers or referrals. so in the end u fill up with junks and trash in the market

commission ??
Cosway, amway, neuway also have
Its a kind of reward incentives i guess..

There is 1 way to get a deep discounted quite new for example yamaha. One could try to advertise n network around, "looking for less that 3yrs "model no." Maybe some ppl just bought out of impulse and wish to unload. You could try 30% off the promotion price as a start - just a suggestion idea.

Wah, 2nd piano mark up so high arr.
Aiya... since when piano becomes a commodity? rather than a musical instrument?? Nevermind, the key is more piano sold, more music student, more teacher, more tuning good for industry economy lah.

So what's the moral of the story?
Shop around for the best price and best sound.

For certain example, 200% or 300% is not unreasonable.
If the bought in price is $300, say 300% is just $1200(whatever the currency you choose)

From the base $300, the deal have to sent mover to pick up and spend a great deal of work to "do up" the piano before it is presentable for sales. Do-up can consist of many items lor like repair, replace..... Lets say 2~3days of labour. Workshop rental, sales staff, electricity...

For this instant, i'd think re selling the piano for $1200 is reasonable because dealer still have to factor in mover out, warranty, tuning etc etc ... of course lastly, some profit, right?

Importantly, the buyer would have the assurance that the above piano is in good learning and playing condition upon reaching home for many years to come.

I'm just stating an example only, can be too specific, no hard rules here. So, don't be too taken aback with 300%
I just wish buyers wouldn't too negative about the 2nd market, try to view it from a different pespective.

I don't think 300% markup applies to those imported from japan pianos. If price of cost is $2200 inc shipping, 300% markup would be $8800? Wah so good aarrr .... drive lexus leow.

I'm not a dealer, just thinking upon what jays states above.
Hope i won't be mistaken or misunderstood.

I also a consumer and a adult piano learner mah .....

Another analogy example is Char Kuey Teow

Wah just some noodles and kuey teow, bean sprout, pork oil, fish cake, sea-harm, chai-sim, a wok and fire = $2.80
How much is the cost? perhaps 70c
But the man standing there sweating and kang-hu is the essence
That one wil cost $$$ money, i'm sure all will know.

snoopy.. no lexus le...i think a porch maybe, with that margin. open a used piano shop sell 1 unit make 3 units. bought a shop not long after 3 shops ady... dream also shock...

anyways, no against used pianos . i think they are value for money provided everything is in order and u the lucky one. but majority are really too old as a piano. they not like cars from japan. those reconditioned ones can be a bargain as there are not very old ~ few years old! photocopy machines too... i just bought one reconditioned.. suprisingly it's only 3 years old (based on the model).. ok le.. can copy and print good enough, only problem is the japanese wordings .