I've been shopping around recently at suburban Chicago piano stores. I'm looking for a grand piano in the range of 5'6" to 6'6". I'd like to spend around $30,000 and as much below that as I can manage. I've currently broadened the models and brands I'm considering, but have narrowed down my choice to 4 brands and a few sizes for each:

Estonia 168 (5'6") or 190 (6'3")
Boston GP-178 (5'10") or GP-193 (6'4")
Yamaha C3 (6'1")
Kawai RX3 (6'1") or RX5 (6'6")

I'd appreciate any feedback on the following issues:
1) which brand of these four should I choose and why?
2) if the choice is between Boston or Estonia, which one and why?
3) should I save money by going with under 6' or am I likely to regret not going for a grand 6' or over?
4) Is the Estonia a risk (in terms of quality, maintenance, future resale, etc.) or does it hold untold riches (tone, action, musicality, resale, etc.)?
5) which one offers the best value for the money?
6) in this price/quality range is there anything else I should consider?

The list above is roughly in order of my preference at present. A few weeks ago, my goal piano was a Yamaha C3 and I was only considering Yamahas! My accomplishments for today were trying out the Estonias and finally ridding my head of a bias towards Yamahas that I've gained from mostly practicing on Yamahas for the past year (playing the C3 back to back with the Estonias helped with this). Now, I think I'm really choosing between Estonia and Boston and I'm going to play Bostons again later this week. I've not found the Kawais attractive, but have liked the Bostons (perhaps I'm just thinking I like them because of the Steinway connection?)

My current home piano is a low end digital and I'm eager for an acoustic grand. I've been reading The Piano Book and am awaiting the 2007-08 supplement.

Reading the plethora of opinions on this forum has both answered questions and made me more confused in some regards. I've seen lots of superlative comments alongside disparaging remarks about Yamahas and Kawais. Similar with the Bostons, though less overall commentary, except with regard to the Steinway vs. Kawai elements. And I've seen nothing but glowing reviews of the Estonia. Perhaps that is all the info I need?

That's all. This post manages to be shorter than my first one, believe it or not!

Thank you!

cscl

cscl:

Some of the questions you have asked can only be answered by you.

You should buy the piano that you find most to your liking from the standpoint of action, tone and appearance, probably in that order. None of us can tell you which to choose because choice among most of these pianos is a personal choice based on the inherent qualities of each of these lines of pianos. To further complicate matters, there are often individual variants even among the same models of any given brand, so trying to single out one brand for reasons of tone and touch may not apply to the model you might consider of the same brand. Many opinions will be based on the tonal qualities of these pianos, some of which differ from each other and those opinions will be very subjective.

As you can see, I am an Estonia owner and I am more than satisifed with my piano. I am also encouraged by the fact that techs who have looked at it recently - I've been shopping for a new tech - have been pretty unanimous in their praise of the high quality of the manufacture of this piano. That said, when I chose this particular instrument, I had the choice among several Estonia 190's, and the others did not speak to me the way this one did, fine pianos that they are. So, I would be remiss in expecting you to have the same feeling for Estonia that I do, unless you have the chance to try half a dozen well-prepped ones before you buy.

Others may be able to comment on comparative values among these pianos, all things being equal, but they are not all equal, are they? "Value" depends on what price you pay and on what kind of dealer service you get for your purchase and, ultimately, what kind of satisfaction you feel when living with the instrument you choose.

You have, as you have said, already read many diverse opinions on these threads, some of them quite divergent even on the same brands. Your request for opinions is going to give you just that: more opinions. You also have to consider the source of these opinions, and it's quite likely to assume that you don't know much about the expertise - or lack of it - of each of us as individual posters. What credence are you going to give to someone who posts strong opinions one way or another on any of the brands under consideration? Will a dealer's opinion on one brand over another be more influential than one that comes from an amateur musician, or will the opinion of a teacher/performer have most sway?

It's a dilemma, but not an uninteresting one. I think the piano shopping experience can be a very exciting - albeit frustrating - one, but only you can make the final decision based on what you see, what you feel and what you hear when trying pianos.

Enjoy the search!

Regards,

I do realize my questions are fraught with subjectivity. I'm mostly interested in hearing what strong and (hopefully) well reasoned and experienced opinions are out there as I weigh the decision for myself.

I'm more or less aware that all 4 brands are all high quality, although I'm curious why the Estonia is within reach (and even less expensive than, say, the Yamaha quote I received). The Boston so far doesn't seem that expensive either. The Kawais were the least expensive of the bunch.

Thanks,

cscl

BruceD said it all, and said it eloquently, so I'm not going to repeat him. But I will address one issue you raised, of whether to go for the shorter or longer piano. When I was shopping I started out thinking I could fit no longer than a 5'5" in my living room. Everybody encouraged me to go at least 6 feet or longer if I could. I got hold of templates and realized I could go up to 6'2", and I ended up with a 5'8" piano. Which I love absolutely... but every time I play a seven footer and hear the superior bass you get with a longer piano, I think to myself, "maybe I should have gone for something a bit longer."

So, I would personally recommend that you go with the longest piano of those options that you can afford and like.

All those pianos are pretty nice, if the differences in proce dont matter just keep trying them until you settle on a favorite.

CSCL

I think you know which one you really want, don't you?

Just admit it and go buy that Estonia 190 that has stolen your heart. You will never regret it.

Best wishes.

As Monica said, I'm not going to repeat what BruceD said. He said it well. I too am a very happy Estonia owner. I tried many pianos. Yamaha is mass-produced and is not my kind of sound. I did like the Kawaii RX series and thought they were decent value, Boston did not impress me or speak to me. But it was all over once I started playing the Estonias. In truth, I really wanted to love a Charles Walter, but it just did not happen. As to why Estonia is still so affordable, I believe it's because Dr. Laul is not greedy and is satisfied to build his pianos' reputation slowly and steadily. And perhaps Yamaha is thinking too highly of itself? Estonia is great musical value for the money. Having said that, they have gone up a lot since I bought mine in 2004 and they are still excellent value.

Have fun shopping.

I've not played a Boston, but of the other three you mentioned I like the Estonia 190 the best, and that is what I bought myself. I looked at the same ones you did as well as Schimmel and a few others. And I, too, started out thinking I would buy a Yamaha.

CSCL,

BruceD, in his great wisdom, has made a cogent argument regarding the importance of trusting your own judgement rather than relying on subjective opinions of others in your piano search. Other people seek support, justification or validation of their choices.

With the above noted, for what it is worth, except for the Kawai RX-5, we did try all the pianos on your list. We also tried many others. Our very subjective answers and why we chose, as opposed to what you should do, are:

1. Estonia L190 - we liked the sound and playability the best. Our family plays almost exclusively classical repetoire with a scattering of popular/new age and rarely rock. We feel the tonal qualities of the Estonia is well suited for this. If you like to bang away, the Yamaha or Kawai may be a better choice. Each piano has its own idiosyncracies and we favoured one L190 from several other 190's and 168's that we tried.

We liked the excellent build quality with the handmade craftsmanship, fit and finish and the quality of the components.

We liked the dealer (the infamous Norbert who has taken a hiatus from PW) as he is a true music lover and was the most enthusiastic and most knowledgeable of the dealers we met. Our family, including two young, but well behaved girls, was given the freedom to play everything without time constraints, pressure or constant hovering. We also thought that he would stand behind his products and his service to date has been excellent.

The Estonia was priced extremely competitively with respect to the others on the list. We also tried many cheaper (in cost, not necessarily quality) and more expensive pianos. Price is not necessarily an indication of improved quality or sound. For example, there were one or two Steinways that were sublime, many that were average sounding and a few that were painful (? poor prep). We like the Estonia as much as some of the Steinways and it was significantly less expensive. For us, it offered the most bang for the buck.

2. Estonia. See above. The Bostons were nice but we thought they were overpriced. To us, some of the Bostons sounded better than some of the Steinways in the same room. We have an old Yamaha upright and my wife grew up with a Yamaha G1 baby grand. They are well built, dependable and relatively easy to resell. Ultimately, we preferred the sound of the Estonia to the Bostons, Yamaha C3, 2 and Kawai RX 2,3.

3. Probably. We have a large room and didn't want to upgrade in the near future. We liked the ease of the bass notes on the 190 compared to the 168 and the price difference was not great. A slightly larger piano would have been ideal for us.

4. No risk if it is a newer Estonia. The problem is that the price of the Estonia has risen considerably over the last few years and although it was an excellent value, it is becoming a good value. A recent vintage Estonia, esp. the 168 which has had many improvements, would likely hold its value well. The tone, action and musicality is subjective but for us, yes.

5. See 1. The best value is the piano you buy as it will give you years of enjoyment.

6. Try as many pianos as you can find at both higher and lower price ranges. Some of the new Chinese pianos eg. Brodmann have received a lot of praise and you might get lucky with an used or taking too long to sell M&H, Steinway or Bosie.

Good luck in your search and trust your own ears and fingers,

K

These were all on our shopping list as well. We also started thinking it would probably be a Yamaha, but decided we didn't like the way they sounded.

1. Only you can choose

2. Between Boston and Estonia I would choose Estonia if I were wanting a more unique, original instrument versus a play-it-safe-because-supposedly-from-Steinway, overpriced, half-copy of a consumer product Kawai (but then I don't have strong feelings on this)

3. Get the biggest one you can afford and that still works in your room

4. Estonia in Europe still doesn't have a great name -- too many bad memories of Stalin and terribly made pianos. That is one of the reason Estonia seems to be really focusing on the USA market. You could almost consider them a "made-for-the-USA" piano today. I only played on one of the 'new' ones: I liked the tone which was quaintly unique and interesting. I found the action to be loosy goosy, a bit uneven and not very responsive. Reminded me of an Irmler. I didn't give it a second thought after five minutes of playing. Estonia appears to be the darling of this forum and is enjoying some great sales momentum now. The impact is that prices are increasing. Is quality staying at same level or decreasing? I don't know. Scaling such a traditional production facility upwards beyond a certain size is a very difficult process. In comparison, Steinway New York was effectively not able to do so consistently in one hundred years of trying. So, Estonia is possibly a bit more risky. If you like it though, my motto is "take at least one risk every day!"

5. In general, both Kawai and Yamaha are widely considered to offer good value for money if you negotiate well and if you like them (Kawai perhaps more than Yamaha due to more perceived pricing flexibility from Kawai dealers). For the most part, they are solid and reliable, if not a bit boring.

6. For the sake of completeness in comparison and orienting yourself, you might also want to take a look at Schimmel and Petrof and also look around for used grands. Depends on how much of a hurry you are in. Don't be in a hurry.

The biggest reason why Estonia is "within reach" is because of Eastern European labor rates. Your other choices are all made in Japan, where incomes are about 4 times higher than in Estonia.

While higher prices over the last few years may be partially attributable to increased demand, I believe that currency exchange rates have also been a factor.

In response to some of the things discussed in this thread…
Estonia is definitely the exception to the other pianos mentioned.

It is a very limited production instrument, which design is motivated by a different manufacturing philosophy.
It is using some rather different production methods, which are partly dictated by the materials used, and partly by the design of the instrument, and which is aiming to create a performance instrument of the highest level.

Only about 350 – 370 instruments are being produced yearly over the course of the past few years, and indeed most of these are destined to the US, which could handle a much larger number of grands had Estonia been able to produce them.
Production is rather steady on this level, and while most major changes and upgrades to the instruments, which have contributed greatly to the price increases during the prior years, have been completed by 2005, the company did not raise their production numbers.
Instead, they have been focusing on maintaining the high level of production achieved. They also added their custom line finishes, showcasing their woodworking ability and demonstrating that it is on par in comparison to the highest level manufacturers with stunning wood cases in exotic veneers such as Rosewood or Pyramid Mahogany.

There are a few reasons for the Estonias remaining very affordable in comparison to other high end European manufacturers of similar level, and indeed, the lower cost of labor in Estonia is one of them...however, there are a few other reasons for their ability to offer such a competitive price.

The tax system in Estonia is different, allowing the company to pay much lower income and corporate taxes than in Europe, the US, and Japan.
Also, the import duty rate for European instruments such as Estonia is lower than that of instruments coming from the orient.
In addition, the Estonia piano factory is located in Talinn, the capital, on the coast of the Baltic sea and only a couple of miles from the harbor. As such, the cost of land transportation is spared on instruments destined for the US.

Finally, As have been discussed here before, Estonia does not distribute its pianos via an independent distribution company, but rather doing their own distribution. Dealers such as me are purchasing the pianos directly from the president of the company, which is the only distribution representative of Estonia in the US. Cutting the distribution costs is significant, but as long as Estonia is in a position where the demand for its instruments outstrips supply, as it has been in the past few years, there is little need for any marketing budget from the company’s side...which further lowers the overhead.

Estonia does not run any costly artist programs, and participates only in one show a year presenting its pianos (NAMM). Since they can sell all the instruments they make easily, they do not need to advertise their instruments in professional industry magazines, or to the public, and save a lot of money doing so.
Estonias operating costs are lowered from another angle as well because of the demand for the instruments. Since their production is pre sold to dealer prior to arrival to the US, the company does not need to maintain any central warehouses, and/or pay for extra transportation.

I hope this helps.

These are excellent points, Ori. Just to give some perspective, Distribution companies such as Yamaha Corp of America add around 35-40%. They are entitled to it, as they are a major part of Yamaha's market penetration in the U.S., as well as their terrific service reputation.

Oh yes - cheap labor, I forgot about that aspect. Don't even get me going there!

It depends on which piano you feel the best with, your personal preference.

I have tried many Boston Grands and I never took a fancy to any of them but one of my friend's does have a boston grand that I really liked, have no idea what the model # is though. As for Estonia, I've only tried 1.

price wise, I think Kawai. Overall personal preference Kawai.

So Ori, when you buy them from the President, are you buying them as a retailer at a wholesale price or a discounted consumer who then marks them up accordingly. I would imagine that when you order in higher numbers you get a very good price too. Interesting marketing philosophy.

Mark

Only to add my personal, very nonexpert opinion: between Estonia and Boston, Estonia wins (well, look at my sig. line)! I haven't really liked any Bostons I've played, especially in comparison with the other pianos on your list. The bass is very full, but the treble is lacking. They always sound a bit dull to me, and the action seems heavy. When I started looking for a piano, I was interested in Kawai, but I was turned off by the sales tactics and high prices of the exclusive local dealer for the brand. I did like the new Kawais I tried, but not as much as the Estonia I ended up with.

I felt the Estonia was the best value in that price range, and it had that extra "something" that spoke to me. After a year, I'm still enjoying my piano very much. I also had a positive feeling about the dealer I bought from, and they have provided good service.

In the same price range, you could also try Bohemia, Petrof, smaller Schimmel, and Vogel. Of those, the only one I didn't like was Petrof. I think I could have been happy with any of the other three. (Schimmel was very nice!)

There's also used -- older Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, etc.

Thank you all for your comments to my post. I really appreciate hearing your views as I pool all my information together and try out different pianos.

Thank you!

cscl

Wow, sometimes these Estonia threads really bring out the owners in droves. Of course being one myself I couldn't resist. However, since other owners have pretty much said it all I'll simply ask the obvious question which hasn't been asked until now.

Why would you consider an Estonia 168 when your budget could get you a 190 (IMO a better instrument)?? The extra 22 CM makes a huge difference. If you find one you like don't wait too long.

You asked about Kawai and Boston. Are you aware that Kawai makes the Boston. I seem to recall reading that the scale design of the Boston is not something Steinway had much to do with. Readers will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall reading that the Boston scale design is just an older Kawai design. If you're going to buy a Kawai at least get the latest and greatest. The RX series has the Millenium action which I've always found to be light and fast. I preferred the sound of the Estonia and that was the deciding factor for me. YMMV.

From this list, I would place my vote on the Estonia. Although I didn't buy one, it was high on my list as its tone is more akin to the high end pianos. Since you've tried a C3 compared to an Estonia, you should have heard the difference. Trust your ears.

This distribution model is significant and is a nice tie-in to the thread on dramatically reduced retail margins. If you want an Estonia in Europe, for the most part you are asked to take an airplane to the factory and choose your instrument at an attractive price to be sent to your home. No haggling with a dealer over price, no paying for expensive dealer inventories, showrooms and sales reps etc.

I'm partial to the Estonia - excellent value and quality; get the L190 if the money isn't a deciding factor. Yamaha and Kawai are not bad (if a little plain) if you can get by the annoying sales tactics. Boston is very good but quite a bit more expensive, at least up here. Some say it's just a re-badged Kawai RX but I can't see it; they don't look the same to me. Look at Schimmel as well if you can afford a bit more. They are fine pianos.

I might add that my current piano is a digital (so low end I'm embarrassed to name it). I definitely feel like when we bought this one, we dealt with a shadier salesman and got a bad deal (although we weren't willing to put out much money at that point, so perhaps we did okay).

A year ago when we bought that digital, my ears couldn't tell the difference between anything in the store. I know a lot more now, but I also know how much I don't know and how much better my fingers and ears will be in another year. I read somewhere in the archives that people in my position often want to hear opinions from the forum because they need the advice of those with better ears and more playing experience and skill. That's why I've been reading so thoroughly through the archives.

I want an acoustic piano that I can play the rest of my life and one that I'm happy with in 5 years when I'm 5 years more knowledgeable and 5 years a better player. I was disappointed within the first couple of months with the digital we bought and I definitely don't want that to happen again when the purchase price is orders of magnitude greater.

I'm considering the 168 because I'm not committed to the extra amount in the piano-buying budget if I don't have to go that high. Although with the Estonias, one can easily see you get a great deal more piano in that size and price upgrade.

The first opinion I received from a professional pianist I talked to was to go look at Bostons and not to bother with Yamaha or Kawai. So, I shed my initial preferences for Yamahas and took a look. I did like the Bostons and will try them again later this week. I've not been able to warm up to the Kawais (sound or action) despite wanting to give them a chance and realizing there must be quite a lot of Kawai in the Boston (which I did like from my one visit to the Steinway dealer). I'm a bit torn with the Bostons because they came so highly recommended from face-to-face contact with an accomplished pianist, but based on these forums, I haven't seen much by way of outstanding positive commentary. Right now, I feel like the Boston is a riskier purchase, in the sense that I feel like I'd be much more likely to have buyer's remorse and pay a lot more than is necessary. Now, I haven't gotten down to negotiating price yet, so maybe that wouldn't be the case.

As for now, I remain undecided and very much in shopping mode.

Thanks again to all who have added to this thread!

From theJourney:
Of course you can and I am sure Mr Laul will welcome you but you don't have to.
In your country you now have: http://www.estoniapiano.nl/, I have a dealer in Belgium and there is one in Germany (Hamburg).

schwammerl.

The sweetest Estonia I ever played was the 168. It did not have as much oomph, but I'm not much of a banger anyway.

Everyone speaks of the low price of the Estonia but I haven't seen it posted. Could someone PM me a ballpark number for both the 168 and 190. I'm curious as to how it compares to say a Kawai RX5 price wise...thanks

Yeah Ori - what is the ballpark number for a 190 nowadays? Make it in satin mahogany please. I'll understand if you PM me instead of posting publicly. And if you don't want to do that I'll just ask my other good Estonia friend instead.

i love my 168 -

love it.!

A little more than a year ago I was searching for a grand in a
similar size and price range. In addition to the models on your
list I also looked seriously at similar sized pianos from Bohemia,
Petrof and Schimmel, as well as used Steinway's and Mason & Hamlin's. I was lucky to find a showroom which had Schimmel, Yamaha and Estonia all in the same room so that made comparing at least those three brands somewhat easier. While the Schimmel and Yamaha both had very nice actions, for me the tone of the Estonia won hands down. Also, of the Estonias in the showroom I visited the 190's sounded significantly better than the 168's. I ended up buying the Estonia (FWIW my second choice was the 6'3" Petrof) and I have been very happy with it. Aside from the usual set-up issues I have had no problems with the piano at all and it's much more stable with respect to tuning than the Yamaha upright it replaced. The technician who cares for my piano also thinks it's a very nice instrument (as does my teacher). Good luck with your search!

Originally posted by cscl:

"I'd appreciate any feedback on the following issues:
1) which brand of these four should I choose and why?
2) if the choice is between Boston or Estonia, which one and why?
3) should I save money by going with under 6' or am I likely to regret not going for a grand 6' or over?
4) Is the Estonia a risk (in terms of quality, maintenance, future resale, etc.) or does it hold untold riches (tone, action, musicality, resale, etc.)?
5) which one offers the best value for the money?
6) in this price/quality range is there anything else I should consider?"


1.& 2. I've played several of 3 of the 4 brands and 1 Estonia. Yamaha's action (i.e. touch) is not to my liking. The sound is good, but too bright for my classical tastes. Kawai's RX-series has a heavier touch and quite a balanced sound. The Estonia was a nice piano to my recollection and was balanced. I'm around Bostons all the time and thoroughly endorse them as do most of the "regular" schools, schools of music, and churches in the area.

Of course, I recommend the Boston over the other three. It has a wide-tail design that allows for more soundboard area for the same size piano. If you take the number of square inches, for example, of the 5'10" GP-178 and compare it to the 5'10" of another brand, it is larger (closer to 6'2" of soundboard). The jury is out on whether a larger soundboard equals better tone, but I think that most would prefer more soundboard area. Steinway & Sons was essentially trying to maximize the sound in as little space as possible.

Secondly, the soundboard of the Boston is tapered at one end giving the wood a more flexible and sonorous quality than your typical soundboard. The soundboards of the "other 3" are of a uniform thickness. Boston, like the Estonia, is a limited production product. How much is "hand-made" I'm not sure. What does that mean anyways? Most pianos are put together by hand primarily. If a piano is "hand-made" you would expect it to me much more expensive than what I have seen the Estonias sell for. Mabye its an economical thing for Estonia to sell their instruments at low margins. I can't speak to what is going on with the pricing of those instruments. Continuing on my technical swing here: Boston, Kawai, and Yamaha all have agraffes/duplex scaling on the pianos which I don't believe the Estonias have (this is a metallic component that extends the speaking length of the string and gives additional harmonics to the tone). I'm sure that others will chime into the veracity of this statement. I certainly do not want to misrepresent Estonia.

The sound of the Boston, if prepped well, can be very colorful and balanced (for the respective price-range) so I would try several before making your final decision.

I know I will get reemed for this by most of the post-ers in this thread (as I always do on Piano World! ..which only strengthens my resolve, by the way) but, remember that Steinway & Sons designed the Boston piano (it's manufactured by Kawai but COMPLETELY-designed by Steinway & Sons). As many know, the Steinway & Sons piano represents a quality level that few have matched. It's the company that is the constant target of ridicule but continues to stand the test of time. Ask yourself, whom would you rather have design your piano? This should go a long ways in your final decision.

3. The magical size difference to me is going from a "baby grand" to a 5'10" (or above) size piano. It's akin to adding a sub-woofer to your stereo system in that it really gives you a balanced sound between the golden tones of the bass and the singing treble notes. To me, 5'10"-6'10" is all about the same in terms of sound and touch. Sure, the 6'10" is going to give me all the bass I want for that one classical piece in the world that requires a "gong-like" bass but I really have not seen enough of a difference in overall tone and touch unless your getting into over 12 inches of difference in length of the piano (even then, I'm hard-pressed to say that if I had the money that I would spend the extra bucks). I am a pretty good piano player. I'm not just saying this from a beginner's perspective! Utlimately, though, don't buy because of size (as long as its at least 5'10") but because of the piano! The 6'4" Boston may not sound as good as the 5'10" because of its personality, probably not because of its length. Every piano has a personality, as you may well know.

4. I would not call Estonia a risk. However, Boston is likely to have better re-sale because of America's recognition of the brand. Things could change, of course, but I have never seen an Estonia in a local church, school, or school of music. Maintenance-wise, if the Estonia is a hand-made piano, it is likely to have more maintenance issues (just like the Steinway & Sons piano needs more maintenance than our Bostons). Most pianos will sound better with time, regardless of brand, if worked on by a good technician. The same technicians working on the local concert hall's Steinway & Sons grand will be working on your Boston piano! This is a comforting thought!

5. Best value for the money: you decide

6. A used Steinway? A used Boston or Estonia?