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#1200978 - 05/17/09 03:49 PM What do you think the greats would do...
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
So I just had a random thought today while I was playing a piano part with a band at my church....what do you think the great like Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, and all the other great composers would do with a modern day chord chart to play along with a band or something?
Like today, I was playing a song where the chords were C#m, B, A, E and it repeated that with some variations throughout. I took that and did a lot of long arpeggios with added non chord tones [LOTS of suspensions, passing tones, appoggiaturas and the like], cross rhythms, and stuff since the song was piano driven and it sounded great. If I were just playing along I'd probably have just done a second inversion chord in my right hand and done bass octaves in the left to the beat...but the question is...what do you think some of the great pianists in the past, the composers we play now, would do with chord charts like we have today? Kind of a random question, but I think it could be a fun topic.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1200986 - 05/17/09 04:02 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1708
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Most competent musicians (and not just the "great" ones) of the common practice period knew how to realize figured bass (from which modern chord charts derive). It's no big deal if you know how to realize things stylistically and tastefully.

I once realized figured bass on the harpsichord and organ in a performance of some selections from Handel's Messiah. Great fun.

Of course many common practice composers such as Bach, Mozart and Beethoven were also incredible solo improvisers. Once they've assimilated the harmonic progression and melody of, say, a famous folk song or an opera aria, they would improvise a set of variations with no troubles.
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

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#1200988 - 05/17/09 04:06 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: xxmynameisjohnxx
So I just had a random thought today while I was playing a piano part with a band at my church....what do you think the great like Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, and all the other great composers would do with a modern day chord chart to play along with a band or something?
Like today, I was playing a song where the chords were C#m, B, A, E and it repeated that with some variations throughout. I took that and did a lot of long arpeggios with added non chord tones [LOTS of suspensions, passing tones, appoggiaturas and the like], cross rhythms, and stuff since the song was piano driven and it sounded great. If I were just playing along I'd probably have just done a second inversion chord in my right hand and done bass octaves in the left to the beat...but the question is...what do you think some of the great pianists in the past, the composers we play now, would do with chord charts like we have today? Kind of a random question, but I think it could be a fun topic.


They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201015 - 05/17/09 05:02 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Mozart was said to have accompanied a singer in an aria that he had never heard before without any music at all.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1201062 - 05/17/09 06:47 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones

They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.


Although I like some of Jarrett's playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

comparing him as an improvisor to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt etc. is quite pathetic. It's like comparing some tiny bug to a mountain.


Edited by pianoloverus (05/17/09 06:48 PM)

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#1201085 - 05/17/09 07:15 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones

They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.


Although I like some of Jarrett's playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

comparing him as an improvisor to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt etc. is quite pathetic. It's like comparing some tiny bug to a mountain.


That's only because you truly don't understand jazz or improvisation. If major and minor scales in one tonal center float your boat, the ones you mentioned are your cup of tea.
If you appreciate something of a little more substance, which of course, you must understand first to appreciate, Jarret, et. al. will be as totally lost on you as if you were to improvise scales and arpeggios in one key.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201093 - 05/17/09 07:29 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BDB]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7427
Originally Posted By: BDB
Mozart was said to have accompanied a singer in an aria that he had never heard before without any music at all.


At first glance, that seems amazing. But really, in his day, the structure of most music was so predictable that it may not have been so amazing after all, for a skilled and sensitive musician.

Many pop musicians, especially the studio ones used to working in many styles with many solo artists, can improvise stuff from scratch for the same reason. All they need is the key, and some idea of the basic style and away they go.

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#1201096 - 05/17/09 07:40 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones

They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.


Although I like some of Jarrett's playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

comparing him as an improvisor to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt etc. is quite pathetic. It's like comparing some tiny bug to a mountain.


That's only because you truly don't understand jazz or improvisation. If major and minor scales in one tonal center float your boat, the ones you mentioned are your cup of tea.
If you appreciate something of a little more substance, which of course, you must understand first to appreciate, Jarret, et. al. will be as totally lost on you as if you were to improvise scales and arpeggios in one key.


You statement assumes jazz is of a "little more substance" and the greatest composers and improvisors of their day were limited to major and minor scales.

You can spend the entire day posting here for the rest of your life(and you seem well on your way to do that)but you're wasting your time trying to convince people on a classical music forum. But if you want to continue beating your head against the wall, be my guest. I don't think you've convinced one person here.

I won't be bothering to read your "reply".

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#1201109 - 05/17/09 08:19 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: pianoloverus]
Hrodulf Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 830
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones

They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.


Although I like some of Jarrett's playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

comparing him as an improvisor to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt etc. is quite pathetic. It's like comparing some tiny bug to a mountain.


That's only because you truly don't understand jazz or improvisation. If major and minor scales in one tonal center float your boat, the ones you mentioned are your cup of tea.
If you appreciate something of a little more substance, which of course, you must understand first to appreciate, Jarret, et. al. will be as totally lost on you as if you were to improvise scales and arpeggios in one key.


You statement assumes jazz is of a "little more substance" and the greatest composers and improvisors of their day were limited to major and minor scales.

You can spend the entire day posting here for the rest of your life(and you seem well on your way to do that)but you're wasting your time trying to convince people on a classical music forum. But if you want to continue beating your head against the wall, be my guest. I don't think you've convinced one person here.

I won't be bothering to read your "reply".


Sadly since the classical greats lived before sound recording existed, we will never have a definitive answer to this debate.
_________________________
Learning:
Chopin op 55 no 1, op 69 no 1, op 23
Beethoven op 27 no 1 allegro vivace
J.S. Bach wtc book I prelude 10
Debussy reverie
Liszt b minor sonata
Haydn sonata Hoboken xvi:37
Brahms op 116 no 6
Exercises

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#1201176 - 05/17/09 10:12 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: pianoloverus]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[But if you want to continue beating your head against the wall, be my guest.


I'm not beating anything on the wall or anywhere else for that matter, but it's good that I have your permission to post. To dismiss Jarrett's improvising as trivial demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what he's playing, which is sad. frown
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201177 - 05/17/09 10:14 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: Hrodulf]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: Hrodulf
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: BJones

They weren't modern jazz musicians, that's for sure. They would have done exactly what you did. Scales, Arpeggios, scales and arpeggios in octaves, etc., etc., ad nauseum as do most classical pianists do when faced with having to improvise on a chord progression.

Here's one of the world's best improvisors, working on a circle of fifths progression:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

F min - Bb min - Eb - Ab - Dd - G - C
etc.


Although I like some of Jarrett's playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq0EWNuR1H8

comparing him as an improvisor to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt etc. is quite pathetic. It's like comparing some tiny bug to a mountain.


That's only because you truly don't understand jazz or improvisation. If major and minor scales in one tonal center float your boat, the ones you mentioned are your cup of tea.
If you appreciate something of a little more substance, which of course, you must understand first to appreciate, Jarret, et. al. will be as totally lost on you as if you were to improvise scales and arpeggios in one key.


You statement assumes jazz is of a "little more substance" and the greatest composers and improvisors of their day were limited to major and minor scales.

You can spend the entire day posting here for the rest of your life(and you seem well on your way to do that)but you're wasting your time trying to convince people on a classical music forum. But if you want to continue beating your head against the wall, be my guest. I don't think you've convinced one person here.

I won't be bothering to read your "reply".


Sadly since the classical greats lived before sound recording existed, we will never have a definitive answer to this debate.


Do we need sound recordings? We have millions of sheets of music as evidence of what tey played and how simply they thought 150 to 200 years ago.
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201179 - 05/17/09 10:17 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
Ridicolosamente Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 1448
Loc: Miami, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: BJones
...how simply they thought 150 to 200 years ago.

Relatively simple of course! wink

Daniel
_________________________
Currently working on:
-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

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#1201180 - 05/17/09 10:18 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: wr]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: wr
[quote=BDB] But really, in his day, the structure of most music was so predictable


Extremely predictible. You can sing along, melodies, counterlines, chord progression/bass lines with most Mozart even if you've never heard it and be right 95% of the time!

Something like this is infintely more advanced and more unpredictible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEnTEY-XQXw

Then again, it should be far more mature. It's 170 years of musical advancement, yet still romantically tonal (not yet like the works of Xenakis, et. al.). We don't drive horses and buggies anymore either. Nost classical pianists seem comfortably stuck in the 1770s and think that's as far as music advanced.


Edited by BJones (05/17/09 10:22 PM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201197 - 05/17/09 10:50 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
And yet, at least 90% of what jazz artists play uses pretty much the same musical language that Mozart did. That is why they can improvise together even when they have never played with each other before.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1201198 - 05/17/09 10:52 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BDB]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: BDB
And yet, at least 90% of what jazz artists play uses pretty much the same musical language that Mozart did. That is why they can improvise together even when they have never played with each other before.


Not the 90% that I listen too and play with!
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201208 - 05/17/09 11:20 PM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: BJones
To dismiss Jarrett's improvising as trivial demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what he's playing, which is sad. frown

You have a point. There are other non-classical (though Jarrett did play the Stravinsky concerto) pianists I prefer, but since this is a 'family' forum, is it okay to be a bit honest? Hopefully I won't be modded.

Back at uni, I met this really cool bloke. We smoked quite a bit (bongs are best for this) and all of a sudden he said: you really need to hear some Jarrett. Well, we listened and I was transfixed with what I heard... a few drinks just added to the atmosphere.

Thanks to the 'alterations' Jarrett's improv just slowed my sense of time down, everything he was doing made so much sense. It was incredible. Having seen many Wagner operas in altered states, I would have to admit that Jarrett almost rivals Wagner in his utter control of long spans of time.

Methinks the blood rushes too fast for us these days. Instant gratification is what it is about, and it is a shame what we miss. The Bach B minor Mass, Wagner's Parsifal, the Bruckner symphonies, and yes, Keith Jarrett.
_________________________
Jason

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#1201232 - 05/18/09 12:14 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: argerichfan]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: BJones
To dismiss Jarrett's improvising as trivial demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what he's playing, which is sad. frown

You have a point. There are other non-classical (though Jarrett did play the Stravinsky concerto) pianists I prefer, but since this is a 'family' forum, is it okay to be a bit honest? Hopefully I won't be modded.

Back at uni, I met this really cool bloke. We smoked quite a bit (bongs are best for this) and all of a sudden he said: you really need to hear some Jarrett. Well, we listened and I was transfixed with what I heard... a few drinks just added to the atmosphere.

Thanks to the 'alterations' Jarrett's improv just slowed my sense of time down, everything he was doing made so much sense. It was incredible. Having seen many Wagner operas in altered states, I would have to admit that Jarrett almost rivals Wagner in his utter control of long spans of time.

Methinks the blood rushes too fast for us these days. Instant gratification is what it is about, and it is a shame what we miss. The Bach B minor Mass, Wagner's Parsifal, the Bruckner symphonies, and yes, Keith Jarrett.



Speaking of control and unfolding, have you heard this one by Jarett?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzqMJWlKMsY
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201233 - 05/18/09 12:15 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: BDB
And yet, at least 90% of what jazz artists play uses pretty much the same musical language that Mozart did. That is why they can improvise together even when they have never played with each other before.


Not the 90% that I listen too and play with!

All that says is that you are too young to differentiate style from substance.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1201239 - 05/18/09 12:23 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BDB]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: BDB
And yet, at least 90% of what jazz artists play uses pretty much the same musical language that Mozart did. That is why they can improvise together even when they have never played with each other before.


Not the 90% that I listen too and play with!

All that says is that you are too young to differentiate style from substance.


Actually, all that says is that you don't listen to post 1940s jazz and your historical and harmonic knowledge is very limited when it comes to jazz piano.
Should I write out some of the hundreds of Tristano, V1, Jarrett, Solal, Peterson, and Tatum solos I play so we can examine and analyze them for un-like Mozart substance? Or would you rather continue to pontificate in the dark, as I suspect?


Edited by BJones (05/18/09 12:25 AM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201267 - 05/18/09 01:22 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
xxmynameisjohnxx Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 625
Loc: San Diego
I have to say, BJones is definitely right in this aspect. Jazz has evolved a lot since the 40's, and now the progressions and music theory used is far past what Mozart was using. No more just using I-IV-V blues progressions in the top notch jazz, it's a lot more. I played some jazz song from a play the other day to accompany a friend and the chords were very interesting, a number of them had no roman numeral function to them in any way and were used just for the sound [WAGNER]. Not to say that Mozart's theory was bad in any way, he just had limited musical theory compared to what we have now.
Oh and to Janus who posted the thing about figured bass, I know what that is and have realized a fair bit, but I was just wondering if they might do something with more substance to it, all the figure bass I've done/seen has just been for 4 voice stuff following very strict voice leading rules. I didn't know if any of them would do something more...interesting.
_________________________
Chopin: Nocturne No. 15 in Fm. Op. 55 no.1.

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#1201278 - 05/18/09 02:14 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: xxmynameisjohnxx]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
This is a weird place sometimes smile. Simultaneously you can have a thread where people whinge about anything remotely harmonically advanced, and try to convince us that all music written after 1917 is complete tosh, and now here we have a thread where someone laments Mozart's limited musical theory and wishes he might have done something more interesting. Gotta love PW smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1201285 - 05/18/09 02:31 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: BJones
Originally Posted By: BDB
And yet, at least 90% of what jazz artists play uses pretty much the same musical language that Mozart did. That is why they can improvise together even when they have never played with each other before.


Not the 90% that I listen too and play with!

All that says is that you are too young to differentiate style from substance.


Actually, all that says is that you don't listen to post 1940s jazz and your historical and harmonic knowledge is very limited when it comes to jazz piano.
Should I write out some of the hundreds of Tristano, V1, Jarrett, Solal, Peterson, and Tatum solos I play so we can examine and analyze them for un-like Mozart substance? Or would you rather continue to pontificate in the dark, as I suspect?


Well, I never listen to recordings of those people. I do not have to. I was tuning for the jazz immortals before you got out of elementary school. You do not learn about improvisation from recordings.

Any fool can tell that there are differences in the harmonic language between Mozart and some of today's musicians. However, great musicians are great musicians no matter what language of music they speak. The important thing is to look for what they have in common.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1201302 - 05/18/09 05:14 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BDB]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: BDB
[Well, I never listen to recordings of those people. I do not have to. I was tuning for the jazz immortals before you got out of elementary school. You do not learn about improvisation from recordings.



Really?? You don't learn the language of jazz by playing with and stidying the recordings of other jazz musicians? Learning jazz is ore about listening and emulating than anything else. That's how all the greats of the ancient period that you're talking about learned the dialect and language of jazz. Guys like Diz, Bird, Lester, Louie, etc., didn't have colleges to teach them. They learned by sneaking into speakeasys and hiding in the rafters to listen to jazz players.
When Bird came up with Diz, he couldn't even read music! Didn't really know what he was playing theroetically, but played the sound in his head that was downloaded by all his listening and then jamming.
Jazz of bygone day was learned by listening, not by analyzing. Listening to the dialect and then seeking it back to another speaking the same dialect ad fine tuning that.
When you say that jaz isn't learned by listening, it's obvious that you haven't a clue.
All the notes and chords in jazz, no matter how advanced, have been used before, in clasical music. It's the dialect that's changed. The way the notes are phrased and harmonies stacked, and the way you get that i by speaking with others, through others, and by listening to others speaking that language that you wish to emulate.
In learning to play jazz, listening is 90% of the task!
Also, you really should listen to some post 20's jazz. jazz has come a long way since Eubie Blake, Bix Beiderbick, and Paul Whiteman's swingless "jazz".


Edited by BJones (05/18/09 05:15 AM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201309 - 05/18/09 05:48 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: BDB
[Well, I never listen to recordings of those people. I do not have to. I was tuning for the jazz immortals before you got out of elementary school. You do not learn about improvisation from recordings.



I agree with BJones here, I heard from Jeff Clayton that Ray Brown used to stole idea from Oscar Pettiford so much that people use to call him "Ray Pettiford".. in fact the whole school of thought for them is LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN, and learn to play everything by ear.. Jeff Clayton also told me that John Clayton told his son Gearld and Tamir Hendelman, both excellent pianists, to learn to play Oscar Peterson's "Canadina Suite" note by note without writing them down. My friend was lucky enough to talk to Kenny Garrett, and Kenny basiclly told him that your practice routine should consist of 4 hrs of technique and 4 hrs of transcribing

So apparently Kenny Garrett, Jeff/John/Gerld Clayton, and TONS of very accomplished jazz musicians think that you CAN learn jazz from recordings... and in fact a lot of these people have problem with jazz education nowdays because a lot of school rely too much of method books.


Edited by etcetra (05/18/09 05:52 AM)

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#1201312 - 05/18/09 06:27 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: etcetra]
BJones Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1043
Loc: Queens, NY
Originally Posted By: etcetra
Originally Posted By: BDB
[Well, I never listen to recordings of those people. I do not have to. I was tuning for the jazz immortals before you got out of elementary school. You do not learn about improvisation from recordings.



I agree with BJones here, I heard from Jeff Clayton that Ray Brown used to stole idea from Oscar Pettiford so much that people use to call him "Ray Pettiford".. in fact the whole school of thought for them is LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN, and learn to play everything by ear.. Jeff Clayton also told me that John Clayton told his son Gearld and Tamir Hendelman, both excellent pianists, to learn to play Oscar Peterson's "Canadina Suite" note by note without writing them down. My friend was lucky enough to talk to Kenny Garrett, and Kenny basiclly told him that your practice routine should consist of 4 hrs of technique and 4 hrs of transcribing

So apparently Kenny Garrett, Jeff/John/Gerld Clayton, and TONS of very accomplished jazz musicians think that you CAN learn jazz from recordings... and in fact a lot of these people have problem with jazz education nowdays because a lot of school rely too much of method books.


Corrct. learning to play jazz is a completely different process than learning to type classical music. Classical pianists strive to selflessly play the music of others, like zombies, sacrificing their own creativity in the process, slavishly losing their own identity, absorbed by the composers who's muisc they're playing, note for note, time after time, nothing ever changes, it can actually make you wretch if there's even a spark of creativity in your soul or muic in your head!, while jazz musicians strive to play their own music from within. To create, out of the amalgam of music they've uploaded by constant listening and honing their ear and getting in touch with themselves at the keyboard. That music gets there in only one manner. By hours and hours of listening rather than playing. The ear and imagination, plus learning to play in the moment, to instantaneously create, instant composition is the goal of jazz musicians and the training to do so is completely different than classical music once the basic nuts and bolts common to both genres are mastered.


Edited by BJones (05/18/09 06:29 AM)
_________________________
Some recent improvisations:

Cool School Chopin:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d1yc1mmitew

Improvisations:

http://www.box.net/shared/bjv6yc34oo

http://www.box.net/shared/8lmc3hzikl


Top
#1201315 - 05/18/09 06:37 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
So classical musicians do not:
a) have any creativity?
b) have any individual identity?
c) hone their ears?

Please answer-I am eager to hear your response!

Top
#1201322 - 05/18/09 07:02 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BJones


Extremely predictible.


Not unlike some posters here...

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#1201323 - 05/18/09 07:09 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
landorrano Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: BJones

Classical pianists strive to selflessly play the music of others, like zombies, sacrificing their own creativity in the process ...





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#1201324 - 05/18/09 07:09 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: BJones]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: BJones
Corrct. learning to play jazz is a completely different process than learning to type classical music. Classical pianists strive to selflessly play the music of others, like zombies...

Ah, the old BJones classical-pianist-as-mere-typist analogy again. But now we're zombies as well!
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1201327 - 05/18/09 07:18 AM Re: What do you think the greats would do... [Re: currawong]
JustAnotherPianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 798
Loc: United Kingdom
Sorry, BJones, you didn't actually answer my questions.
I shall ask them again.
So classical musicians do not:
a) have any creativity?
b) have any individual identity?
c) hone their ears?

Please answer-I am eager to hear your response!

Top
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