Hi I'm new and know almost nothing about pianos, and I discovered this interesting forum, so I read many comments which seem like reading Greek or Latin at times, so thanks for reading my story....

After 18+ years, my Clavinova finally started breaking down. I hadn't played it in years, and my daughter started using it for her lessons last year. Almost everyday, she comes to me complaining something is wrong with a different key/note. First it was consistently just one key that sounded 'strange' in her words, now 4 to 5 keys sound 'strange'. I simply tell her the piano is out of tune, and she goes back to practicing. In my mind, I'm thinking time for a real piano.

I go visiting my local piano store. Immediately, I realized there are too many pianos in the stores, and I know practically nothing about pianos except where you are supposed to put your fingers and foot. Anyway, I tried many pianos at the store. I started with the Yamaha P22, tried the T118, T121, the U1, the YUS1 (really nice), and then I tried some sort of Disklavier piano and the action was amazing (it sounded pretty good too I thought). I suddenly had this flash back in my mind of when I used to play on my teacher's Steinway B. The sales person said he has one "in my price range" without the electronics called the GC1. I looked at it, and it was not in my range at all. I was shopping for a $4,000 piano and the GC1 has a retail price of $23,295!!!

I suddenly realized the USD$4000 - $5000 budget I had in mind was not enough. I was starting to lose my mind. I am there to buy a piano for kids and I ended up looking at pianos that would cost 3 to 5 times more than my upper end budget. Before I completely lose it, the sales person offered me the U1 for $6,000 including tax, delivery, one in home tuning. I quickly regained composure. I could live with that, I thought.

From that point on, it was pure agony. I was quoted these prices:

Kawai GE30 - $13,350
Yamaha GC1M - $13,495

It was a mistake playing the C1 and the GC1 side by side. The difference is significant enough for me to keep checking if the C1 is a bigger piano, but no, it says C1 on the plate. It was bigger mistake trying the C2 and C3 also the RX-3; Wow. Finally, I looked deep into my heart and my wallet, and realize it is either the GE30 or GC1M.

I am not happy with the sound of either, having heard the C3 and RX-3, but I loved the action of the GC1M. The U1 can't even compare. The action on the GE30 was good, too. A bit heavy. Couldn't trill as well, perhaps I'm just too out of shape. Its action was easily better than the U1 as well. I prefer the sound of the YSU1 over the GC1M or the GE30, but a $9,000 upright? Really? I don't get it. I kept thinking I loved the action of the GC1/C1.

My hope is that once all the side by side comparisons are done, in my home with nothing to compare to, the memory of the sound of the C3 and RX-3 would fade. Heck, I don't remember what my teacher's Steinway sounded like, and I used to practice on a Steinway upright that had awesome sound, too. Just have to remind myself I don't even play the piano, it's just for the kids. Now I am just waiting, thinking if I should have gotten the U1 for $6,000 including tax and delivery. An agony all of its own.

My first thoughts,

There are many choices in each range that you have been quoted and without touting specific brands, my suggestion would be to visit a few other piano stores and get some additional experience with what you enjoy... and don't enjoy in a piano.

Some of the pricing you have gotten is quite fair, like the Yamie U1 for 6k. Other pricing is waaay out of line - like the GC-1 price of over $23k. That is just preposterous. You can purchase waay more piano for that kind of $$$ echo.

My advice is to find another dealer that will spend a little time educating you. If you tell us what part of California you are in, perhaps we can recommend a couple of people to visit.

CE, You can buy a fine piano for $5k. One example is the Essex by Steinway. You can get one of their brand new 49" uprights for around $5000.

But Rich gives sound advice. The piano is all about touch and tone. Therefore you need to listen to see what instrument "grabs" you. Touch may not be a deciding factor since your daughter hasn't been playing long. However, others on this form would have a better opinion on that issue. Maybe some of the piano teachers hear will chime in as to the touch needs of a youthful beginner.

Classical Echo,

Best of luck on your search, seems like you are well on your way to understanding your preferences. If you can look into the future, do you see yourself and your daughter using the piano daily in 7-10 years and are you thinking about the possibilities and probability of that scenario? This might help you answer the question of how much you want to spend. If you believe a better piano will support more practice and more enjoyment then you might have part of your answer. As I'm sure you know its daily practice over many years that is the greatest determinant of all.

I can relate. I went shopping for a $10,000 piano and came home with a $30,000 instrument. Oh well, what's money for.

I predict you're going to get a lot of attention from dealers on this forum--- your story is red meat to some people. So, you need something on your side. Let me suggest some reading, first of all. Fine's "Piano Book" and the 2009 Supplement, Marty Flinn's "Piano Buying for Complete Idiots" (not saying that you are, of course). Reading through the back numbers on this forum can be an education, but some of these people's views need to be taken with a whole shovel-full of salt. Still, you can learn valuable things.

Second, some shopping--- and take your daughter. Try, and try, and try before you buy. It is a good time to make some favorable deals on a new instrument, but you will have to negotiate. Shun shills and snaky salespersons--- run don't walk if they turn on the sales pressure.

You may find that a lightly-used newer piano from a private seller may allow your dollar to buy more piano. It's truly essential that you have candidate instruments inspected by a qualified technician (who will also tell you the realistic market value) before you buy. The fee is modest, the migraines can be massive if you buy a pig in a poke. Technicians may be able to direct you to sellers. Some so-called "private sellers" are actually businesses, some shady. Still, there are some values out there.

If you educate yourself a bit, take the help of experts, and shop with your own fingers and ears, you can come out very well. That would be a happy story.

Yeah $23K was a shocking price, but the piano played itself, and it was neat to see the keys move. I was really impressed that you could even turn off the left or right hand and learn one hand while the piano plays the other. Very cool.

I haven't touch a piano in years. I didn't realize there is a Essex by Steinway. I used to practice in college on a Steinway upright. I didn't know what model (Model 1099??? hum, that sounds like an IRS form, anyway not sure), but I loved its action as well. It's harder to control dynamics within a cord on the Steinway upright, as I recall. You know how you would often need to play a single note either softer or louder than the others in a multi-note cord. I recalled that was easier on my teacher's Steinway B than on the practice Steinway upright especially in a fast moving passage with many cords.

I just assumed I couldn't afford any Steinway and didn't bother to look. As I recall even the uprights were rather expensive, and my school had them under lock and key. What is a Essex by Steinway?

The "by Steinway" is a bit of a misnomer. Essex, along with Boston and Steinway, is part of the Steinway family of pianos. Some Essexes are made by Young Chang, some by Guangxhou Pearl River. (Bostons are made by Kawai.)

If you're open to considering other Chinese-made pianos, Hailuns have received positive comments on PW re their build quality. IMO their currently being offered at introductory prices, while the company is building its distribution network.

Rich G. is giving you good advice. The more pianos that you audition the less likely it is that you'll walk into someone's house and hear the piano that you should have bought.

If there's a Craigslist location near you, it's worth looking at.

It's always tone, touch, and appearance - to you ears, your fingers, and your eyes. Buy the piano, not the deal.

Not bad... though times are tough and I think you can negotiate and bargain harder.

That $23k for GC-1 that seem to attract some other folks' attention... was that a "player piano"? You mentioned that you can see the keys move and the piano plays itself... for such a system, $23k is not so preposterous (though there's still room for negotiation).

$6k out the door for a U1 is pretty good too... if your budget is $6k, then your budget is $6k... as many stories as I have read of people doubling and tripling their piano budget, I don't see that as something to be encouraged. If you're buying for yourself, as an adult and as an experienced pianist, you can be more sure of what you want. But if you're buying for a child who has just started piano last year, (1) there is a chance that she quits in a few years, (2) a U1 is enough to support her all the way to college level piano studies. So while the U1 may not fulfill your desire, it can fill your needs just fine, and hence not a bad choice. The music comes more from the pianist than from the piano anyway[*].

Besides, as your life situation changes, you can always buy another piano later... so don't look at this as a decision that can only be made once.

[*] Unless a player system is involved.

Essex and Boston are brands that Steinway designed, they watch over their manufacturing processes, and they put the Steinway name on.

It sounds that at one time you were quite a good pianist. That being said, I personally would increase my budget a bit to get an instrument that would satisfy you (should you start playing again - heck, you can be your daughter's teacher) AND your daughter.

The Boston brand is a step up from the Essex. The Steinway K-52 upright is VERY nice with a great action because of the way they designed its guts, but may be out of your budget. The Boston may be a good fit, but negotiate hard for a good price.

Get the Piano Book as suggested, take your time and enjoy the process.

StatsMan,

We really don't need to get back into the "Steinway designed ... " issue. If you use the search function you'll see how controversial that issue really is. For starters, the notion that Kawai needs anyone to 'watch over' them for quality assurance is more than a bit odd. Whether or not Boston is even 'better' in any way than equivalent length RX Kawais is itself a red meat question for disputation.


ClassicalEcho,

Join the club of people whose thinking process gets all smashed up when confronted with the real choices out there. My budget wound up tripling once I got seriously involved in my search. That doesn't have to happen, of course, but you have said how unsatisfying some of the pianos are that are within your initial budget. If your finances are truly constrained, well, that's that. If you can raise the budget a bit, then you can begin to imagine many possibilities.

Take your time. Many of us took a year to play the field, so to speak. And it is really well worth your time to investigate pricing very carefully. Not with an eye to getting every penny. That way lies madness. But there are some simple rules that help you get in the ballpark fairly easily.

I understand your feelings about the C series vs their lower price point brethren. For me, the C series blossoms at about the C3 length.

This is great advice. The U1 price is excellent in California. On the Eastern seaboard it's an infuriating killer price to some retailers. Sometimes, not always, the invitation to triple your budget should be spurned....kind of a 'join me on the road to financial oblivion pitch'. No matter which piano bride you carry over the threshold there's always something better, taller, bigger, rarer, more in vogue, etc.

The bringing out of a secondary voice within a chord that you alluded to is a good test for you to apply to all the pianos you see. If the action is up-to-par, you should be able to send the signal by applying the exactly correct key velocity. The test is whether the piano can respond audibly to your coaxing. That's a performance issue that should make clear to you the differences among the Steinway family of brands. Give the devil its due. True Steinway grands trump most of the competition in tonal manipulation (that competition definitely includes XXXX by Steinway brands).

As one of the resident retailers here has often said, many of the high-end pianos that excel in build quality are emperors with no clothes when it comes to manipulating tone and dynamic range. Look to Asia for some lower-priced lower-prestige pianos that can embarrass them in this area of performance. In that light, if you read Fine, keep in mind that his categories (which many here insist on labeling as tiers) are constructed mainly on build quality reputations earned over time. That is certainly an angle not to be dismissed, but hardly the total picture.

It's good to establish a set routine for piano evaluation as you make your rounds. The routine should consist of the mundane aspects: unisons at different velocities, triads, chords, arpeggios, key repetition, pedal function, sustain (some here feel the longer the better, but not everyone), little snippets of different kinds of material. Many here who launch into some favorite piece of music report overly emotional responses such as being blown off the bench or even blown away completely. This can bring on a rush but is hazardous to good judgment and can be harmful to your physical well-being over time.

I think that observing a budget that's within your means is a respectable and worthy thing to do, and I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to put themselves in a financial hole for the sake of a piano. Too much of that sort of thing in recent years, and the buzzards are coming home to roost.

In my case, my mom left me a few bucks, and that put me in a position to get a nicer piano than I could have afforded otherwise. She was from the musical branch of the family, and I tried to think what she would have wanted me to do with the bequest.

It seems very reasonable if a person starts with a piano they can afford--- the best that's within their reach--- and moves up later on after saving up for it and doing some careful shopping. They can also sell the first piano, or use it for its trade-in value, to give them a little more help.

I remember reading some posts on this forum about a person who owns a very fine piano--- but has no home to put it in. A very sad story. No one should be encouraged to risk such a thing.

I am just stating the facts. Steinway says in their literature that they have their people at the factory inspecting every piano that is built. This makes perfect sence since they MUST feel confident in the instrument since the Steinway name is on it, and thus their reputation.

I'm not sure why the mention of the names Boston and Essex caused you to want to discuss quality, inspections, etc. I was simply mentioning a quality instrument in the OP's budget.

I quess it's the same old same old. Whenever the name Steinway is mentioned on this form, the bashing begins.

That is AWESOME! I bet your mom would be THRILLED to know how you spent her money.

Classical Echo,

Rent a piano. There is no reason for you to buy in a rush.
The GE-30 or GC1 are not that great. OTH the U1 is just OK.
Save some money, shop around and buy a piano based on the right reasons and not only price/brand.
Take the pressure off your back and enjoy the ride. It could take a few months before you bite the bullet.

I can't believe I didn't suggest that since that is exacly what I did. Although the rental didn't have the best action, it made for a sufficient practice piano. Also, most piano stores will give you all your rental monies towards the purchase of a new piano.

Send me a PM if you want details of my experience.

There are quite a few pianos out there around 5,000 that should be adequate for you daughter. Will your piano teacher not go with you and help you? You can tell the sound on the pianos when you stand back and someone else plays them sometimes better than being on top of them while you are playing yourself. But it is best to do it both ways. Have you ever tried a Perzina? They are affordable and have a wonderful touch and tone? Don't make your search too narrow. If your piano teacher cannot go with you perhaps someone else you know that plays the piano that might know a little something could go with you. And reading the books suggested is another great way of feeling better about buying a piano.

Hey Statsman,

Do you really know what has gone on here with all of 76 posts, or have you participated using another name in the past?

I'm sorry you think I was bashing Steinway. Maybe you really don't have a lot of experience here, since if you did you would understand that I have never been a basher. I have been known, however, to say a few things about manufacturers' promo sheets and the puffery/exaggeration often contained therein.

Nope. I've always been the StatsMan.

I suggest you do a search for Boston and Essex here. You will notice that there are dozens who get rather heated up whenever they read those words. It's bizzar.

By saying that Steinway exaggerates their promo sheets, is that not a form of bashing?

The following is directly from the Kawai website:
"Kawai has developed an action with a feel and consistency that is unmatched." Now I see what you meant by exaggerated.

I just went through this process. Same budget. I was hoping to find something used that would work. I did find a used Boston studio I liked, but disliked the finish too much. Not too many good used pianos for me around here.

Anyhow, I'd suggest you look at the Kawai K-2, K-3 and UST-9. Nice pianos in the price range. I also liked the May Berlin. It Felt and sounded good. You've already tried the Yamaha T118. Do look at the stores' used pianos while you shop. You just might find a deal on a nicer used instrument.

I'd get on the internet and find a city within a reasonable driving distance that has a couple of piano stores. Feel and listen. It'll be out there. You'll narrow down the contenders pretty soon. And, there's nothing wrong with sticking to your budget. But, you can still enjoy the eye candy while you shop for what you really need!

Good luck

Charles

This feel to me very sound advice. I think my initial approach was too much like buying a car Honda Accord at $x Toyota Camry at $x, Ford Fusion at $x, BMW out of my budget so on. I need to be more thoughtful and give more time to consider the all aspects more than just how much, how long to finance, how much trade-in/resale value, how well it would hold up in 10 years, etc.

What a great idea! I might just do that.

The teacher is ridiculously busy, so I almost feel bad asking, but did ask her to "bless my final choice". I might ask her to stop by a couple of stores near where she teaches.

I have never heard of Perzina. I'm embarrassed to say I don't know anything about pianos because I quit soon after becoming an adult. As a child, I learned on a Yamaha upright. The teacher came to the house, so I have no clue what she had. My parents' Yamaha is now at my sister's house. In school, they had Steinways. They also had Balwins in the open practice rooms.

I never made it in music. The Eureka moment came during sophomore year when I was listening to my classmate practicing the 2nd Rachmaninoff piano concerto as I listened to her play everyday for 2 or 3 months straight. We hung out together a lot, and we would share ideas; I was so opinionated, I'm not sure how she put up with me, but deep down I realized I could never play like her, and there is no guarantee if she could make it either, so I quit and went into computer science. Ironically, my classmate who played so brilliantly went onto medical school after graduating and hung up her music as well.

Anyway, sorry for the long about answer to whether I've heard of Perzina. I am probably the most ignorant person on piano brands on this board.

You are not ignorant! How can anyone know everything? That is the fun of life learning something else you don't know to add to your knowledge. Let me encourage you to ask around and play or listen to a Perzina I think you will be awfully glad that you did. I wish your teacher had more time to go with you but you still can tell somewhat what you like. Have someone play them for you and listen. It doesn't have to be a concerto. Just a simple piece and listen to the tone does it sing or fall flat and stop? Good luck. Please let me know if you happen to find and listen and play a Perzina, I would be interested to know how you liked it. Try not to stress to much and don't feel pressured to buy in a hurry. Maybe even taking a tape recording with you and recording the pianos of your choice and then going home and listening to them again at your home so that you can make a decision without feeling pressured would help. Bye for now.