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In measures 26, 28, 30, and 31, I find those arpeggiated ornamentations quite difficult to play effectively. I can play them relatively quickly with good precision but I have a bit of difficulty at getting these up to the speed of the recordings to which I'm listening. From what I've seen on YouTube, it seems like a kind of flick of the wrist almost and the fingers seem to just wave over the keys. Is this a matter of just practicing it over and over again or is there some other technique required to execute these little devil notes?

Here are the visuals in case you don't feel like getting out the score:




As always, I appreciate any minutia of help.

I'm working on this Polonaise right now. I must say that I haven't found those arpeggiated figures particularly difficult. What I have done with them in practice is to decide exactly when they begin and where the RH is going to fit in with the LH. What I have in one of my scores more or less corresponds with what you are showing in the above edition.
On the first arpeggio:
- the fourth RH note (E) coincides with the LH low G-sharp
On the second arpeggio :
- the fifth RH note (A) coincides with the LH low G-sharp
On the third and fourth arpeggios :
- the fifth RH note (A-sharp) coincides with the LH low G-sharp.

While practicing, I have been breaking each arpeggio into two sections, playing slowly and stopping where the RH and LH come together. As I gradually increase the tempo, I decrease the pause between the two sections of the arpeggio and eventually (I hope) the whole will flow smoothly.

I have both the Peters and the Novello editions and there are some niggling little differences between the two. My teacher is going to bring her Henle to the next lesson, and I hope we'll sort out some of these discrepancies between the two editions. I may even buy the Henle or the Paderewski.

Regards,

Something else you might want to try is working on the arpeggio figures from the last note to the first.

Start by playing the last two notes of the arpeggio; then the last three; then the last four, etc., etc. until you have the arpeggio figures completed. Do each group of notes several times, very evenly, but always "aiming" for the last note and accenting it, as marked in the score.

Regards,

The Chopin 26-1 Polonaise in C# minor ... m26 and 28 arpeggiated "wipes".

Any confusion over these segments is largely due to the notation ... we have inherited an antiquated format which illogically spreads notes of SHORT duration to take up MOST SPACE ... each of the 7 or 8 note gets lumbered with 3 flags (demisemiquavers/32nd notes) and takes up the space of HALF the measures ... the spread is even greater to m31 and 32 where the 10 note "wipe" must be played in less time than it takes to catch a bar fly.

However, my brood gets a MIDI birds-eye view of the "wipes" to give snap perspective in relating to the overall composition, which is very basic ... clearly the racy "wipes" need good fingering and extensive practice to gain muscle memory so as to switch to RH auto-pilot.

Hoping the diagram puts the "wipes" in context.

Marmalade might do it!

Chopin 62-1 Polonaise ... and nobody came to the party ...
perhaps it’s because of being one of the less interesting peaks in the Everest group.

So far we’ve only got OP okonow and BruceD mucking around at the base camp ... apparently drawn by the comparatively easy-going foothills ... but once having been nipped by the icy blast of the arpeggiated "wipes" to m26 and m28 ... might well have reconsidered the venture.

But what else has given the chappies cold feet? Could it be:

1. The arctic storms ... key signatures changing from minor 4# to 5b to 6b (sight-reading gloom)
2. The lonesome road ... 12 pages of uphill
3. The craggy structure ... some of the most complicated Chopin notation
4. Two steps up/one back ... all those repeats

Maybe it’s a case of gaining standing by association ... without having stubbed a toe.

PS Marmalade is great on toast with a cuppa ... tirribly English, don’t you know.

Though I am almost always up for discussion of Chopin, I didn't have anything to add to this one (especially after Bruce's typically appropriate advice). But a statement like "nobody came to the party" is guilt inducing to one who is all too familiar with initiating discussions that attract neither much interest nor participation!

I don't know how to interpret "gaining standing by association ... without having stubbed a toe," but I've suspected that conspicuous absence of contributions by some of the forum's esteemed, erudite and otherwise-happy-to-help heavy-hitters has to do loss of standing by association with the stigma of the socially unstylish.

Sorry for the cynicism, but politics makes the world go round—even the Piano World—and sometimes the political becomes personal. FWIW, the references to bar flies and something as easily spread as marmalade gave me a terrific idea for a joke entirely unsuitable to a family-oriented forum, but, like malformed marmalade, it didn't quite gel.

Steven

Thanks for all your suggestions, guys. I'll be sure to give this polonaise more of my attention now.



I'd rather read D-flat major than C-sharp major though. C-sharp minor and D-flat major are relatively simple to read I found. Now, I haven't really practiced very much of the trio but I've run into no difficulties with what I have sight-read.

I have no idea what btb's "poetic" verbiage means: "mucking around at base camp" ... "icy blasts" ... "arctic storms" ... "lonesome road" ... "stubb[ing] a toe, "etc., somewhat ad infinitum. If he wrote in less flowery, more direct, English perhaps we could have a dialogue about a lovely work of Chopin's.

The OP asked questions about specific measures and I did what I thought might be helpful in response to those questions. As for "reconsidering the venture" I'm not sure what that means. Who is to "reconsider" what? It's one of the more lyrical of the Chopin Polonaises, particularly the Db-major section, and it's one of my favourites of the genre, very rewarding to play.

Regards,

Akonow,

While I never got those passages quite where I wanted them-- wandered away to other pieces-- one thing that was helping me a lot was simply to be sure where I was going at the end of the arpeggiated "swoops." Play the measure without the arpeggiation, until you are totally sure that you can land on the next chords without any hesitation or question in your mind. Then the arpeggio thing just fills in the space between, and happens more naturally.

And BruceD's advice is excellent.

I agree with you that these are tricky. Keep up the good work!

Elene

Simply put, I've never played this particular Polonaise, though one of my classmates at uni did a splendid job of it. I did learn the Eb minor and the C minor, but never got around to my personal favourite, the F# minor.

Steven, not sure where you were going with the 'joke'. If I interpret it correctly, I don't think one could make a joke here. But I may be misreading you...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has special affinity for the F# minor Polonaise.

It's an amazing work, one that I would not yet attempt to study. If I were to attempt it - not any time soon, I assure you - I think that I would have interpretation issues (problems?) with the page and a half or so beginning at measure 112. That repeated pattern of four thirty-second notes, eighth note, four thirty-second notes, etc., doesn't seem to "go anywhere," and making it go somewhere should be what this section is all about. Musically not much is going on; it's a rhythmic pattern vying for attention, but what does one with with it besides observing the extended diminuendo?

Regards,

BruceD, what do you think of the dynamic/rhythmic inflections in Rubinstein's recording of the F# minor Polonaise? It might be worth trying something similar.

Then again, maybe the passage is supposed to be unrelenting. I've always thought of it as a militaristic drumbeat pattern.

I haven't yet gotten to Measure 112, and I have wondered about that section. Still working on the preceding sections, and on some of the virtuoso runs that are found elsewhere in the piece. It is quite difficult, but so far I have not found it to be too much for my ability; in fact, what I have gotten down of it lays extremely well under the hands. Not to mention I'm absolutely having a blast learning such a great piece of music.

I always thought of it as beating drums as well. Rubinstein does give one of my favorite interpretations of that section.

Daniel