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#665566 - 11/10/08 11:27 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Michiyo-Fir:[/b]
I'm trying to determine which software I think is the most realistic and I will purchase it, then I can do the tweaking. But I will mostly use the Steinway patch since I don't need the Bosendorfer.
If you particualrly want a Steinway sample with a really mellow, soft, dark, muffled tone, perhaps the Garritan Steinway might be worth auditioning as well. (It's included in the comparison tests too.) It sounds far less bright and in-your-face than Ivory Steinway or Galaxy II Steinway, and is an excellent choice for mellow classical pieces (eg . "Claire De Lune" or "Moonlight Sonata".) If you buy the 24 bit Professional edition, you get five different mic perspective vatiations of this diffuse mellow multisample to play with.

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#665567 - 11/10/08 03:13 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
I have been listening extensively for the past 4 days and I am leaning strongly towards the Quantum Leap Steinway and Bosendorfer. I will be demoing the Steinway for a week in the near future.
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665568 - 11/10/08 06:08 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
wiser_guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Athens, Greece
Just to let you know that I have uploaded a jazz piece demo played with a variety of pianos (and also with a real one) in this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/6/5432/2.html

Roundup of the usual suspects once more I guess...

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#665569 - 11/11/08 12:31 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Thanks wiser_guy that is verty useful to hear them in an exposed jazz ballad style! Great job.
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665570 - 11/12/08 08:49 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
Thanks propianist and wiser_guy.

Over the last few days, I brought my computer to the nearest school (my friend works there) and plugged it into their auditorium speakers to test out the sound.

I must say, I have sort of changed my mind about Galaxy II. I think it's the 2nd best sample other than EWQL. However, it still sounds like my piano with the lid completely taken off. I realized the worst sounding sample was the Native Acoustic one which I mistook for the Vienna Symphonic Orchestra sample. I clicked words "bosendorfer" and thought it was the Vienna Symphonic Orchestra one which in reality was on top.

I have also tried the CP300 one and it sounds pretty much like my CP300 through the Bose speakers. I think you have it set on different settings than me though.
I've also tried playing the midi file on the built in speakers of the CP300 and it sounds normal.

As for Steinway, I think both Galaxy II and EWQL sounds fine, but I don't really remember the Steinway sound that clearly other than playing it a few times in competitions/recitals.
If I actually decide to buy one of the software, I would probably go to EWQL because their samples sound the best to my ears.

Thanks again for putting up so many samples.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

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#665571 - 11/12/08 09:46 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
Hi Michiyo-Fir,

You didn't say what you thought of the new mellow version....?

Just to answer on a few other points...

"I realized the worst sounding sample was the Native Akoustik one"
Yes, indeed this is the case... and you don't need fancy speakers to hear that.

"I have also tried the CP300 one and it sounds pretty much like my CP300 through the Bose speakers. I think you have it set on different settings than me though."

This WAV recording was contributed by Rented, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think he used the factory default patches. Did you also try it through your CP300 built-in speakers via AUX line input?

"If I actually decide to buy one of the software, I would probably go to EWQL because their samples sound the best to my ears."

You owe it to yourself to download the Synthogy Ivory test tracks and listen to them before spending your money. Ivory is an important benchmark to judge the others, I think. The Ivory Steinway is probably the best example.

Also, bear in mind that EWQL does exhibit some audio glitches in the renders if you examine the WAV files closely (or just listen) and this does seem to be occuring in all eight variations of EWQL presets. It could possibly be Wiser_guy's Mac struggling to cope with the huge library in realtime at a very low latency setting (probably for live playing), but I'm pretty sure he rendered using offline mode from within Logic, and every other piano track render he has contributed is perfect with none of these audio glitches, so this strongly suggests the problem is inherent to EWQL, and not anything wrong with his system. I have a vague theory it's something to do with the switch between the main note and the release samples since a lot of the glitches seem to come near the tail end of notes, but the whole track is festooned with tiny high frequency spikes. I'd be cautious about using EWQL renders in a high quality audiophile production until I'd isolated the cause of these anomalies and found a workaround. For the record no such problems exist (in my experience albeit on Windows XP) using Ivory or Galaxy II until you set the latency to a ridiculously small amount or force it to play over 500+ notes of polyphony, etc.)

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#665572 - 11/13/08 02:02 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
What I notice in some EWQL Steinway demos is some sort of low frequency cycling, like a very soft rumble, that I keep hearing in the bass notes when the sustain pedal is on. I hear it in the demo titled "Myriad Nights Of The City" by David Goldblatt on the product demo page:
http://www.soundsonline.com/EastWest...pr-EW-171.html
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665573 - 11/13/08 03:54 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
wiser_guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Athens, Greece
 Quote:
What I notice in some EWQL Steinway demos is some sort of low frequency cycling, like a very soft rumble, that I keep hearing in the bass notes when the sustain pedal is on.
You are right, EWQL Steinway is mostly affected by this rumble. I listened in detail using headphones in an effort to figure what this rumble was. It is not clear whether this is A/C hum or something artificial.
After installing the latest update this issue is much less prominent but still exists. Judging by the update's size and files, I fear that they only strengthened or introduced a noise reduction algorithm. They haven't actually changed the offensive samples but I wouldn't take an oath on that.
The problem clearly lies in the sustain samples.

 Quote:
I'm pretty sure he rendered using offline mode from within Logic, and every other piano track render he has contributed is perfect with none of these audio glitches, so this strongly suggests the problem is inherent to EWQL, and not anything wrong with his system.
propianist, unfortunately I did as you say. I rendered EWQL offline to let Logic take its time and get a clear render. Well, I shouldn't!!!
Contrary to all other plug-ins, EWQL PLAY must be bounced online! I discovered this recently. It seems that it does not understand offline mode and it rushes the bounce (unnaturally) rendering it full of artefacts. Instead, I have to first play some notes (for the plug-in to settle in!?) and then do an online bounce.
I have already said that PLAY uses notably more resources (CPU and RAM) as a plug-in than as standalone. And no, it's not Logic's fault. If I open PLAY standalone, then open Logic and route Logic's midi output to PLAY standalone, PLAY gives the same audio but using less RAM and CPU. Clearly this has something to do with PLAY AudioUnit plug-in. I can't speak for other DAW or plug-in format as I don't have any.

 Quote:
I'd be cautious about using EWQL renders in a high quality audiophile production until I'd isolated the cause of these anomalies and found a workaround. For the record no such problems exist (in my experience albeit on Windows XP) using Ivory or Galaxy II...
Ivory and Galaxy are extremely consistent RAM-wise and CPU-wise running as plug-ins or standalone. Never a problem with those even with ridiculously low latency settings. And of course, they bounce offline fine. VSL's Boesendorfer is CPU hungry and with comparable size to EWQL. Offline bounce is fine with it also. So, it's not the size of the library, not the CPU, not the RAM (I have maximum installed). PLAY plug-in needs some care by EWQL team.

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#665574 - 11/13/08 08:22 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
Re: the low frequency rumble
Yes, this must be inherent in the actual audio samples, so not something that can be corrected. You don't really notice it with open back headphones, but you certainly do hear it on full range monitor speakers.

Re: glitches...
It seems to be slightly worse on the Bechstein and the Steinway, whereas the Yamaha isn't quite as badly affected.
Does this mean you can successfully get EWQL to render any file without any glitches at all?
If you are rendering in live realtime online mode, I think the resuls will vary according to the polyphony requirements and speed / intensity of the piece in question. Rondo Alla Turca isn't that demanding on resources anyway, but some other styles of playing (like Rock N Roll) eat up a lot more polyphony!
I suppose you could always re-render your tracks, if now you've solved the problem...!

I read that EastWest are going to release another version of the PLAY engine that allows users to actually edit and tweak the multisample library for themselves and even create their own multisamples from scratch. They may release this as a standalone soft sampler like Kontakt 3 type product.

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#665575 - 11/13/08 11:46 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
What does "render offline" and "render online" mean?
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665576 - 11/13/08 11:54 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
The low rumble noise seems to be related to the sustain pedal:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=12542&highlight=rumble

Hear low rumble noise in the demo titled "Myriad Nights Of The City" by David Goldblatt on the product demo page:
http://www.soundsonline.com/EastWest...pr-EW-171.html
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665577 - 11/13/08 02:50 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
wiser_guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Athens, Greece
 Quote:
What does "render offline" and "render online" mean?
To be exact, Logic calls these "Realtime" and "Offline".
"Realtime" is bouncing (writing an audio file) to disk while playing it. Total time for the bounce is actually the piece's duration.
"Offline" is just bouncing to disk. Total time depends on complexity, CPU, disks etc. Usually, a realtime bounce takes less time that the piece's duration.

Sometimes, if you have a slow computer, heavy plug-ins, many tracks and so forth, a realtime bounce is impossible. But even the slowest system can perfectly bounce offline even if this takes more than the piece's duration. In offline mode, the computer has all the time it needs to render plug-ins, instruments and mixes without any compromise.

 Quote:
I suppose you could always re-render your tracks, if now you've solved the problem...!
Well, yes ... and no.
I have tested the PLAY plug-in behaviour (with Logic, I can't test with anything else) extensively. EWQL when bouncing, display the opposite behaviour of all other plug-ins.
Offline mode which should be easy and clear, is full of artefacts, different each time. No matter the settings, the latency, the safety buffers and the other stuff.
Realtime mode on the other hand, which with low latency settings can present problems with other plug-ins, is fine for PLAY. Even if Logic pops the engine dropout message on screen during the bounce, the audio file is clear without any artefact (!!!).

So, propianist, yes I could re-render but since I have to do this realtime, I can't bounce 32-bit files, only 16 or 24 ones. Logic exports 32-bit only offline.

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#665578 - 11/13/08 04:31 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
wiser_guy, Did you mean to write "Realtime" in both sentances in your first paragraph?
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665579 - 11/13/08 05:57 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
wiser_guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Athens, Greece
Murphy and his law...
Really sorry, I've corrected the post.

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#665580 - 11/13/08 08:06 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Michiyo-Fir Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 172
propianist;

Sorry for some reasons my comment got cut in half. I think my page refreshed itself or something while I was typing.

Regarding the CP300, I did put the midi in my DP and play it there using its own speakers and it sounds great. With my settings it sounds like how my DP usually sounds.

I did try the mellow soft Galaxy II Bosendorfer as well and it did sound better. But for some reasons the Galaxy sound just doesn't click with me 100%. The sound when playing fortissimo sounds quite strange to me. Maybe I will get used to it if I use it more but for now it makes me slightly uncomfortable.

I will definitely try the Ivory samples. However I wanted to buy EWQL because it was more well rounded and I don't really want to buy two softwares.

I didn't realize EWQL had so many problems. I will probably reconsider.
_________________________
Bosendorfer Imperial, Yamaha U3, Yamaha P140, Yamaha CP300

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#665581 - 11/13/08 08:30 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
 Quote:
Originally posted by Michiyo-Fir:[/b]
propianist,
Sorry for some reasons my comment got cut in half. I think my page refreshed itself or something while I was typing.
Yeah, I hate when that hap

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#665582 - 11/14/08 12:37 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Nick Phoenix, a moderator, posted this message on the EWQL Forum this afternoon:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=16766&page=3

"The velocity curve is there to adjust the dynamics, if you want the soft notes to be quieter and the forte to be louder. If you don't like the uber warm soft notes then simply limit the low velocity to 50. I love them personally. Make sure you have the latest updates. There will be a major PLAY update soon and new scripted piano programs that have incremental sustain pedalling, repedalling and overtones.[/b]"
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665583 - 11/14/08 03:09 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
By overtones, I presume he means Sympathetic String Resonance, via scripting like Olivier Frappier's script for Kontakt 2.
This is good news, I wish Synthogy would do something like this for Ivory as well...

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#665584 - 11/29/08 01:01 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
I'm growing fonder of the Qunatumn Leap Steinway rather than the Ivory Steinway.
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665585 - 11/29/08 01:11 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Theowne Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 1099
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I use my teacher's "Ivory" which sounds very good but....I always get the feeling that it is too thin and too sharp of a sound. The Quantam Leap pianos seem to be much better, with a fuller and mellower sound. But...400GB on 35DVDS? Am I hearing that right? I guess quality comes with pain....Nevertheless, it was the only time I actually listened to an entire demo piece on the site because I actually enjoyed the sound enough to want to hear the full piece.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Theowne- Piano Videos (Ravel, Debussy, etc) & Original Compositions
音楽は楽しいですね。。。

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#665586 - 11/29/08 01:19 PM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Quantum Leap pianos come as a set of four different pianos. All four loaded together occupy up to 263GB of Hard Disc Space. Each piano can be loaded and used individually: (Bechstein — 73GB, Bösendorfer — 87GB, Steinway — 58GB, Yamaha — 46GB). I only load the 58GB Steinway (7 DVD discs) because I find it has the best clarity.

QL Steinway demo:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHL8KtwohA&fmt=18
_________________________
Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.

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#665587 - 12/01/08 10:44 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway
propianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: England
EastWest have also recently reduced the RRP price of Quantum Leap Pianos by 10%, so maybe they're trying to sell off more copies of the original version, before they release the new improved V2 edition. Manufacturer's price slashes usually indicate a new product is imminent, and the Winter NAMM show is just around the corner...

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#1204429 - 05/23/09 02:39 AM Re: EWQL Pianos vs. Galaxy II vs. Authorized Steinway [Re: propianist]
fighterkitekook Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 2
Loc: san diego california
[quote=propianist]Okay everybody, copy and paste this, below, and email it to support@synthogy.com


Dear Synthogy,

I have been seriously thinking about buying Ivory.....



Hello Everyone, I am new to this forum and have enjoyed this disscussion a lot.

So....I sent the Dear Synthogy letter and I thought I would share the response they sent to me today(05/22/2009)


Hi fighterkitekook(I sent my real name),

Thanks for your question, and for your interest in Ivory!

While the idea of sympathetic string resonance certainly seems like a good one, it's important to realize that the implementation of such a feature could vary widely. Any attempt to include a feature like this would allow a product to be advertised as having this feature, but that does not mean it sounds good, or realistic. Now, I am not intimately familiar with the products you've mentioned, so I'm NOT making any claims about the degree to which they've succeeded in implementing sympathetic resonance, I'm only proposing that, just because a product lists this (or anything else) as a feature, that doesn't mean that it's better than one that doesn't. The true test for any virtual piano is the sound and playability of the instrument. I work in Tech Support, and not Sales or Marketing, and I won't try to convince you to buy Ivory, or not to buy X or Y or Z. I will only recommend that you use your ears, and not your eyes, to make your own informed decision.

As for whether a future version of Ivory will include this or any other feature, I hope you understand that any such plans would be strictly company-confidential, and so I couldn't say anything about it. What I can say is that we've heard requests for sympathetic resonance before, and, like any of the other feature requests we get from our users, we will consider it carefully as we move forward.

Kind regards,

Steve Aiello
Synthogy Tech Support


I am a not much more that a beginner and I can hear the difference when you play with string resonance knob...listen to the demos for yourself (thank you YouTube!)
search...best service galaxy II....there are 5 demos worth watching.

I get the feeling they can be swayed, and when Ivory does it they will do it well. We have to keep reminding them...

thanks propianist.






Edited by fighterkitekook (05/23/09 02:42 AM)

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