I desperately need some motivation today.

Does anybody know of any pianists in the world who began playing piano as a teen or adult? It seems that all the pianists out there had begun playing when they were 3 years old. That's very discouraging for me.

If you know any names then please let me know. I need to know if my goals are practical, or completely unattainable.

Having said that, I have no desire to perform for people. I just want to play for myself, but I want to be amazingly good at it.

No matter how hard I try, my fingers won't move fast enough on the piano!

Thanks everybody.

Hmmm...I have an anecdote. My brother has been a professional musician - he's played piano since he was young, played in successful rock bands; played lounge piano, etc.

He has a friend who picked up piano for the first time at about age 45. Took it very seriously and studied intensely. Some years later (not sure how many exactly, but not a huge time, maybe 5 or 6 years) he's out playing in jazz clubs, and has, in skill, equalled or surpassed my bro' who's played for 40 years (but hasn't really studied for the last 30). I have not heard this guy play, but I'm told he improvises stuff that sounds a lot like Bruce Hornsby improvisations, with a lot of that incredible left-hand/right-hand independence.

Late start, hard work, good teacher, amazing talent. It happens!

Arcadi Volodos got serious when he was in his middle teens and he is compared to Horowitz. Edit: he was fooling around on the piano since he was young however. I don't know if this really answers your question.

There was a pianist named Feng Zhang just today at the Cliburn from China who was self-taught from the age of 9. He did not receive any formal instruction until the age of 15. He is 23 now.

Feng Zhang

If that's not inspiring enough, how about the blind pianist from Japan, Nobuyuki Tsujii? He played all of Chopin's Op. 10 in his prelim recital along with Debussy Images Bk. I and Liszt La Campanella.

Nobuyuki Tsujii

Regardless of how advanced these two are, one started significantly later than most at this level, and the other is working with a smaller "toolkit" of senses than the rest of us.

There's no substitute for a good teacher, and hard work!

dude i'm starting late if it helps cuz i'm 18 but all it takes to reach there is hard work and you will be excellent. i don't think i can play that well but people are still astonished by how i move my fingers, hands and stuff. it actually makes them wanna learn to play the piano. all you need to do to improve your hand speed is practise cuz right now i can pritty fast lol.
hope i helped you

Hi Razzigirl, obviously you are posting this question, not because you really want to know the list of musicians who have made it later in life, but to see if you can successfully play piano yourself without starting at 8 years old.

The answer is a strong YES. I think by the time I've reached my goal of skill level, I will have practiced for 5000 hours. I'm closing on this time period (I've reached close to 5 years now) and I know what I can play. I'm over 50.

There is no difference in what I am able to achieve vs. College music majors who have been playing since they were little kids. I know because my teacher teaches at a university and has told me so.

So age has no consequence. Just put in your 5000 hours...

Great point. When my son started guitar lessons a few years back, his teacher said to him at the first lesson, "Remember, it's not how may years you've played, it's how many hours."

"Remember, it's not how many years you've played, it's how many hours."

What wonderful advice.

Jazzwee, yes, you're right, I guess it's not so much the names that matter, but that I needed to know if it was worth all this effort and expensive lessons.

I need to keep reminding myself that Rome wasn't built in one day! Even 10 or 20 years from now, I'll still be learning.

See sig quote.



Matt

Age may be overblown yet your statement perhaps is too strong. It may have less importance than is purported by many but it is not a mystery that during development the attainment of certain fine skills (such as language etc.) is dependent on when the "brain" (leave it ambiguous) is exposed to exercising these skills etc. I won't pretend to know the extent to which learning an instrument (such as the piano) is dependent on such, but there probably is at least some benefit to beginning your studies during these "critical" periods.

That is not to say that a later beginner cannot attain the goals (s)he wishes, but it is to say that starting earlier MAY have some benefit.

Waltz, I've heard that before and if you're planning being the best of the best and competing on a world class level, then obviously you should have started at an early age because music would have been your life.

But if the goal is play at a professional level (albeit not at the level of a world class pianist), then I am not saying anything too strong.

To me the disadvantage of starting late is I don't have the time to learn a thousand tunes/pieces. It however does not minimize that I'm able to play what I know well. I do believe that the "technical" aspects can be learned after so much practice.

Now presumably, at the professional level, someone would be willing to pay you to play....nothing like money to prove that you've acquired the skills. hehehe....

But I do temper what I say with the fact that probably musicality cannot be taught. Although, my time at the piano has been more limited, I have played the guitar since I was a young kid. I think it is reasonable to expect that if you have a musical frame of mind (creating melodies come easy to you, you can repeat melodies you hear quickly, etc.), then you are probably advantaged when going into the more improvisational aspects of music like I have done in jazz.

I agree that mostly it's about how many hours you put in, not how many years. But for me it's not quite right. Do you ever practice a section of a piece over and over again one day and can never quite do it, but then magically you come back to it after a good night's sleep and play it perfectly?

I think this is the same as saying half an hour a day for a week is better than three and a half hours practice once a week...

nevermind.

I heard a respected conductor of a national orchestra say that if you don't start piano by age 15 you probably will not be able to become a world class pianist.

That may be true if you want to become a concert pianist, but there are probably quite a number of pro players who started late.

I had a music dept chair put it to me like this: If you want to entertain yourself, practice 30 min to 1 hour a day. If you want to play in a band, practice about two hours a day. If you want to be a regional act, practice about three to four hours a day. If you want to be professional, practice about five to eight hours a day. He always told me if you practice a lot, you are going to be good.

Maybe this will help you out. My own personal experience. I began playing piano when I was 16 years old...I am now 23. Here's a couple links to check out to see what you think of my progress so far. Oh, I taught myself to play too lol.

http://www.youtube.com/phillipmills
http://www.phillipmills.com

So, in the classical world the answer is no? That would confirm what I have gleaned from the hundreds of biographies I've read. They all started at age 3-6, even if just poodling about. Oh.., and don't forget, they presumably must have had a piano at home too!

No offense Tobias but this attitude, so common amongst beginners/intermediate, only leads to stagnation. You need to be constantly seeking for the knowledge of how.

Stuff? What stuff (dare I ask)?

Regards, JF

P.S. why do you use periods in your posts when you don't observe any of the other rules of grammar, punctuation or capitalization?

This thread reminded me of a similar feeling I have had with athletics. I used to ride road bikes fairly seriously, but hated to 'measure my success'(with bike computers, etc) so instead had to rely on the way that I felt to gauge my improvement. Bad idea. As the great Greg Lemond said, 'It doesn't get easier, you just go faster'. My husband was the one to point out to me how much I had improved in speed and stamina as he had watched the differences in my riding over, say, 7 years.

My point is that with most really difficult things, improvement is incremental and practically unnoticeable to the practitioner....You might feel frustrated, but you have probably made strides you don't even recognize. Maybe celebrate some old successes? Is there something you can play well today that seemed really difficult last year? Or is there an audience in the house that can encourage you and point out how far you've come?

Celebrate other successes, and congratulate yourself for plugging away despite the annoying sense that there is always room for improvement...perserverence through that is what really pays off.

(sorry for the athletics analogy, but I am still a new piano student myself.... but I am addicted to other things that take time and make you crazy: long distance cycling, ballet, flute...so I can relate!)

good luck!
lvp

cuz hes a pritty fast dude!

As usual, we have skirted the question:
There are precious few, if any, famous pianists that started "later" in life. Thank you, Keyboard Klutz for your honesty.

Some of us really aren't looking for inspirational hype, subjective 'feelings' and opinions and unanswerable questions. Some facts would be nice, especially if they were directly asked for.

Consider other forms of genius: Albert Einstien for example whose teachers thought he was an idiot, failed to potty train 'on time', etc.

And genius wouldn't be genius unless it was rare...

It is never too late to start learning to play the piano - teen or adult. I have a student who is 74 years old and just started lessons two years ago. He is fulfilling a lifelong dream and is doing very well I might add. So, go for it!

Dr. J - The More You Play the Better Your Day

My blog also has more ideas on the adult beginner. You can check it out at http://www.playpianosongstoday.com/play-piano-songs-today--the-blog.html

http://playpianotodaywithdrj.wordpress.com/

[Bluekeys zips on his kevlar vest and dons his flame retardant suit before posting.]

Anyone who says age makes no difference in learning the piano isn't living in the real world. There are no world class pianists who started as adults because the skills needed for truly exceptional performance need to be honed while the mind and body are maturing. You can train a sapling to grow in twisted and interesting ways but you can't bend an adult tree into the same shape. That's not to say you can't reach a modest level of success starting as an adult, nor does it mean that age is more important than effort, teaching or natural talent; just that without starting young, you're going to be limited. And to a large extent, the later you start the more limited you are going to be.

I started at 50, and I have hopes of someday playing well enough to entertain friends and family, maybe play in an amateur combo or accompany aspiring singers. But it would be ridiculous to think I'll ever be soloing in any concert hall.

I know a lot of people have the attitude that "oh, you can do anything if you put your mind to it," and that's fine. Maybe you'll be the one who breaks the mold and becomes the exception. But me, I'd rather keep realistic expectations and enjoy meeting or beating them.

This one started when he was 13.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kp2_mrL8Tc

Bluekeys my friend, and Enfrancais,

Does someone confirming that no famous pianists started late make one who's older feel better about not progressing any faster?

If you read the OP and my comment to Razzigirl, she was looking for motivation and we are providing realistic motivation. Please note that there are a handful of people who can achieve piano fame regardless of the fact that millions of people started playing piano at a young age.

And if you are going to be one of these supertalented geniuses, you WOULD have started at a young age because it would have driven you and it would be your life.

But beyond the famous, aren't there professional musicians that started at a later age? I'm sure there are. Piano playing isn't athletics. We don't need strong muscles for this.

I feel very strongly about this because I have progressed extremely quickly for my old age starting from scratch. And I'm not done yet. There is absolutely no doubt in mind that I can play a professional level (in my genre) in a reasonable time frame and my teacher believes this as well.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm finding no particular physical or mental limitation when playing piano, and I've progressed geometrically faster than my own child that started at 8 yo (he does classical). Proving, at least with a small sample size, that it is all about hours devoted to the task and maybe some natural talent built in.

So if at all possible, let's be realistic about our discussions about age to being an 'accomplished pianist' rather than a 'famous pianist'. If one is on their way to being a world famous pianist, I'm sure that they wouldn't be hanging out in the Beginner's forum

How about a more realistic goal? Let's say, can one attain Keyboardklutz's level if started past early childhood? I don't know your level kbk, but obviously you teach piano, but perhaps you can assess this better (kbk, sorry for using you as an example but you know I have high respect for you).

No I didn't know! Well there you go, I shan't let it go to my head.

The first piano I had I bought myself in my 20's. I went to uni, had piano lessons, thought I was doing well and only had to practice more and then... I discovered a teacher in my early 40's who knew what she was talking about. I don't think it was a coincidence she was famous. I would say I play very well, but at the age I started my repertoire will always be small.

You're talking about "top 10 pianists of their generations" talent here. The best ten, twenty, hundred people of their respective generations. Top-ranked professional pianists are in this respect very similar to top-ranked tennis stars, top-ranked golfers, etc. They rose to the top of an enormous pool of contenders to stand almost alone. In a pool of that size, the averages are going to win out -- if one starts late, she is already WAY behind the vast majority of her competitors. This gets mentioned even in, say, pee-wee hockey. Seen at seven years old, the kids who started at 4 are way ahead of the kids who started at six. Nobody becomes a pro golfer who just started in college. What's more, nobody would consider it even possible. Piano is in a way even harder to excel at than sports, because so much of the performance is judged subjectively. The best a (very) late beginner can hope for, I imagine, is to lose an audition to a superstar ALONG with hundreds of other hopefuls who killed themselves all their lives in order to also fail. Music is no way to make a living.

A more interesting question, in my mind, is: I'm 40 years old (or whatever); if I practice correctly and with good instruction x hours per day, will I be able to play, competently if not with genius, Sonata X by composer Y?

Jim

I mean it. But sometimes it takes a cryptologist to understand your short responses

Repertoire aside, haven't you proven my point? You're a piano teacher for goodness sake. You can't exactly be unskilled if that's your profession.

In Jazz, there are players like Brad Mehldau who do just seemingly impossible things like improvise with both LH and RH simultaneously, and keep a rhythmic feel with both thumbs. Will I accomplish that in my lifetime? Highly unlikely. But neither will his peers. So do I have to shoot for that goal? Lots of jazz masters only improvise with the RH.

icabraham, that's exactly my point. The purpose of the OP asking the question is to evaluate if she reach a certain level of accomplishment. But if the question is: "Can I be World Famous?" Well, then starting at 6 months old isn't soon enough, and even then your chances are miniscule.

No, the question is will I be able to understand Sonata X by composer Y equally well? Because the bottom line is that's what it's all about - what happens in your head.