Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Is Irmler made in China?

Actually Eric, I have no problem whatsoever with outsourcing in a global world, but it's the manufacturers who have created the problem, not the consumers. As a way to distinguish quality of the European pianos versus Asian ones, the Euro manufacturers like S-P make it a point to tout Renner actions and hammers, Val de Fiemme soundboards etc. My problem comes when they then introduce a model that doesn't match those specs without such disclosure. If they didn't say anything about the sourcing and parts in any of the models, then I wouldn't have a problem at all. I'd be free to judge by sound and price, wouldn't I?

But who created the image that Val de Fiemme soundboards are better than ones Asian companies source from Sitka forests in Russia, or that Renner hammers are better than Asian hammers, or that Renner actions are better than ones made in Asia? It certainly wasn't the Asian manufacturers?

I don't want to be harsh, but it seems to me that the Euro manufacturers are now being hoisted by their own petard.

Vince,

I don't care where it's built. I care about being given a misleading impression. That's what I meant when I said that ironically it played great. As far as I'm concerned, if S-P can keep prices down and still build a great-sounding, quality piano, I'm all for it.

I didn't create the image that Euro parts were better than Asian ones, or that pianos manufactured in Europe were better. The Euro manufacturers did.

The irony, of which surprise is a key component, is that I really couldn't distinguish by sound and touch that the 114 wasn't the same as the 118 (obviously not as big a sound), although a more experienced player might, so I'm not the best arbiter here. And if I can't, what does that say about the superiority of Renner actions, Val de Fiemme soundboards, and Roslau strings, which cuts to the heart of the matter, doesn't it?

If you look at the stickers on new car windows, they tell you where the parts were made (above a certain percentage) and where the car was assembled. Most BMWs were not made in South Carolina.

On a semi-relevant note, is there a thread (or would it be appropriate to start one) for questions about the new Larry Fine supplement? I have a couple of questions I would like to ask about it.

TheCaz "The irony, of which surprise is a key component, is that I really couldn't distinguish by sound and touch that the 114 wasn't the same as the 118 (obviously not as big a sound), although a more experienced player might, so I'm not the best arbiter here. And if I can't, what does that say about the superiority of Renner actions, Val de Fiemme soundboards, and Roslau strings, which cuts to the heart of the matter, doesn't it?"

Good points and well said. I now understand the earlier statement.

Nope, not at all. It's easy to find out where they're made. Discussions on the Forum about S&S pianos often focus on the differences between Hamburg and New York models, which Hamamutsu assembly line Boston pianos are made on, why Pearl River vs Dongbei etc., never about what country of origin. That's a given.

I first learned where S&S family pianos were made when I visited my local S&S dealer for the first time a couple of years ago and asked where their pianos were made.

Actually, T, I think you ARE agreeing with me...we (the collective we of piano geeks) do in fact hold piano manufacturers to a different standard than we do other high end, expensive product manufacturers.

Not right or wrong, necessarily.

Bose, it's all about transparency. Lower down the chain, the inquiry might be about who actually manufactures a certain stencil.

Eric

Agreeing with you? That would be awful. I don't want that. Think of my image, man!

Seriously, I think the workmanship...the fitting of the soundboard, ribs, plate, etc. is a different issue from the possibly unfinished state of a factory-shipped piano.

In the ever-more-popular final inspection routine among European manufacturers, I don't think any found deficiencies in materials and construction workmanship can be overcome without a teardown. Action regulation and whatever else can make the piano the best it can be, but does not change what it is. It is what it is. If it was made in China it's a Chinese piano. If it was made in Indonesia, it's an Indonesian piano. If I ask a sales pro what it is and he will only tell me where it received its final inspection, or where its various components were harvested, I suppose that he's afraid to tell me what it is. Maybe he doesn't know either. But it just doesn't feel right.

BTW, I'm no geek. I'm not sure you are either. Don't you have some kind of one-off radial back UX type experimental Yamaha vertical contraption at home?

If a Chinese manufacturer chooses to put at the top of its website.......

"Our pianos are made in China. They are unabashedly Chinese and we are proud of them. We will offer you European upgrades for action, hammers, soundboard, etc. if you like and are willing to bear substantial added cost, but we stand behind our Chinese pianos made by Chinese workers of 100% Chinese components and are confident that they will meet with your satisfaction."

......I will be a fan of that maker's marketing.

You mean like:

GM (General Motors)

Aveo-Made in Korea
Cobalt-Made in Mexico
Impala-Made in Canada
Tahoe/Suburban-Made in U.S.A.

A few years Lee Iococca was president of Chrysler. He went to Japan with a delegation complaining of how many Japanese car companies were hurting US industries by making their cars in Japan.

When he got back a reporter questioned him because so many parts such as seats were made for Chrysler in Mexico. He was asked how much of Chrysler cars were made in the US. His reply was that at least 50% of the Chrysler car parts were made in the US. Now I'm sure the percentage is lower.

I believe in honesty in advertising and piano companies should answer questions about were things are made. But the quality and deserved rating of a piano, IMO, is not closely correlated with the country of manufacture.

(By the way I just learned that Frank has improved this forum spelling so very much. If you right click on a misspelled work then the computer suggests correct spellings. How nice. Thanks Frank.)

And it is working flawlessly!

Among all members posting on this thread, if somebody shows a good grasp of the piano industry is Norbert. His posts couldn’t be more accurate; he is practically predicting the future.
IMO For the most part German manufacturers are not longer interested in what Norbert already mentioned: “Stick with what you're doing best and do it better”. Over pricing pianos to the dealer network doesn’t make them enough money; therefore other alternatives most be found.

OTH Steinway is the only company with a name big enough to build sub-lines, make money, keep their reputation immaculate, AND set-up future Steinway buyers.

The Japanese have done also a good job as well. They make all their lines with the same name and simply divide them in categories. Off course they built their reputation from ground up; this is what is allowing them at this point to move successfully on either direction.

BTW It is a shame that a piano manufacturer such as Blüthner cannot make enough money to sustain healthy business without the need of stencil brands and confusing stories that make them look almost shady.
Respect to those manufacturers taking “the high-road” instead of compromising their image or integrity.

This post is wildly off base and frankly insulting. I would invite you to offer a detailed and factual argument that supports the idea that offering a more affordable instrument compromises a manufactures integrity.

I, for example love the Shigeru Kawais that I have played but wouldn't for a moment think that the RX cheapens the Kawai image.

I predict that Irmler will be a strong competitor in your market. Russell Kassman is a dedicated dealer who offers a well prepared and well supported inventory in the bay area ( if you are the dealer I am thinking of ).

A. Hernandez,

A) Kawai has been making pianos for 80 years. They came into the market as a modest piano manufacturer from Japan, always under the shade of Yamaha. Today, they have an amazing piano in tier One. OTH The name Bluthner has existed for over a 100 years always known as high-end piano maker; today they're venturing into the cheap piano manufacturing.
Using Kawai as part of your argument is irrelevant by just looking at the history of these two companies, and where they are situated in today's market.
BTW Hirotaka KAWAI uses his real last-name; I wonder if Christian's last-name is really Bluthner?

B) The fact that you are here on behalf of Bluthner proves my point. I’ve never seen any Fazioli or Steingraeber sales representative trying to clean up their name here at PW.
Do you know why ? Because they have nothing to clean up. Nor Sauter which by the way I think this is one of the lines your friend Mr. Kassman. is representing. (great pianos too)

C) Since you brought up the name of Mr. Kassman. If I remember well a few moths ago YOU will not recognize him as Bluthner dealer. Today he still claims to be a Bluthner dealer; and all he has is one Bluthner on the floor.
Is this all it takes to be a Bluthner dealer? One piano.
Do you think Steinway will let anybody buy one piano, then allow them to declare their store Steinway dealers? The answer is NO.
This shows how unprofessionally Bluthner is running business; and how much they care about the prestige of the company.

D) If Bluthner has decided to make lower priced pianos ( cheaper over priced stuff). The smart thing to do is not to associate the cheap pianos with Bluthner. Alex! There are excellent pianist who has never heard of the name Bluthner. What is making you guys think that consumers interested in lower priced pianos will get excited over a Korean made piano designed by Bluthner? (This is where Norbert make a lot of sense. He is right . You can’t compete in that market with this business model)
BTW Bluthner should have a sales rep dedicated to the cheaper stuff, this way Bluthner’s sales representative (you) won’t have to get involved into this mess of who makes what and where.

E) I’m a dealer but not that dealer. But since you opened a can of worms, I’ll take up on it.


Dear Alex I don’t have any intention of insulting anybody. It is also understandable that you are not responsible for the good or poor management of Bluthner.

Since I asked you to supply the answer to a simple factual question and since you declined to do so, I fail to understand how you could possibly think you gave me the answers I have been seeking.

Consumers who wish to know where a piano was made have a right to expect an answer to that question. SMC is not a country of origin. It is my understanding that production costs in Korea have reached the point where they rival those in Germany and that SMC is increasingly shifting its production to Indonesia.

If the new Irmler in US inventory is made in Korea, then say that. If it is made in Indonesia, then say that. If it is made in China, then say that. If there are new Irmlers in US inventory that have been built in different countries, then say that and provide an answer to the question of how those manufactured in different countries can be told apart.

You cannot be naive enough to think that these things do not matter to consumers, to retailers, or to those such as Mr. Fine who critique industry products. This continuing unwillingness to answer the question with digressions into subjective piano tiers and the product lines of a Japanese competitor can only do harm to a marketing effort in the long run.

The only reference to Irmler in Larry Fine's 2008-09 supplement is that "Bluthner has temporarily discontinued the Irmler and Breitmann piano lines." If this is correct, it answers the question of where Irmler pianos are currently being made: they aren't.

Turandot. My infomation did not come from Ivan Kahn alone. It came from a higher up exec. with Bluthner, and not Alex. I believe it to be correct. Why do you not believe it? My explaination is detailed and factual. I did not get all of your questions answered, as you had not yet asked them. Unless you are actually shopping for an Irmler, I believe that you have enough questions answered. I was told and Alex has told you that the US Irmlers currently in dealers were made in Poland and the ones which are now being prepared to be shipped to dealers are made in Korea.

Now it is time that you showed some courtesy to others.

Kawai makes a high end and an entry level, That is good business. I don't understand why you criticize the Blüthner family for offering an affordable alternative to the public.

This smacks of bitterness and is regrettable coming from a representative of such esteemed lines. Can we find a more respectful way to address your issues?

Mr. Kassman is now an official Blüthner dealer as I have stated on this forum before. It is not his fault that we cannot make our instruments fast enough.

The Blüthner legacy stands on it's own and it's pretty wonderful my friend. Blüthner is but one voice in a choir of wonderful piano makers today. It is true not everyone knows about us but that doesn't mean we have failed, it only means we have yet to be discovered.

Can you understand it is difficult for me to take your criticism seriously when you choose to hide behind an alias. I invite you to publish your contributions under your real name with a link to your store. That way we all know who you are and the consumer can decide if your style is a match for them.

You know my real name, where my store is and everyone can hold me accountable for my contributions, I am comfortable with that, please do the same.

I am a blessed person my friend and I suspect you are too. I would love to help you or anyone else by offering my experience and expertise here on Frank's wonderful forum. But I think we can accomplish much more by remaining civil to each other.

Good health and good business!