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Idiot question: - - What are the exact notes (sharp vs natural etc) one plays in the thrill on g in measure 23? Thanks!

The trill is between G-natural and A-natural. In the edition of Andor Pintér, there's even a courtesy natural sign above the tr. to allay any ambiguity due to the simultaneous A-sharp played by the left hand.

Steven

There's the same indication in the Henle edition.

Regards,

Thank you two very much. It was the A natural I was sort of concerned about.

One would expect it to be A natural since there is nothing indicating otherwise in the right hand part of that measure.

Looking at the score, the right hand is playing in the bass clef where there is an A-sharp played by the left hand at exactly the same pitch as the A played as the upper note of the trill by the right hand. One of my editions inserts a bass clef in the treble clef to indicate the pitch where the right hand is playing, the other three editions write both hands in the bass clef.
Therefore, the A-sharp wouldn't suddenly become an A natural because it's played by the other hand, and I wouldn't therefore agree that one "expects" the A to be an A natural. The rule says that accidentals apply only to the pitch of the note before which they are placed within the measure in which they occur, and since the trill is on the G-sharp, why wouldn't one expect the A to be sharp as well, given that there is a sharp sign immediately in front of it? It seems that it's not just a "courtesy natural" here but one that is required, as it is in all four editions of the Nocturnes that I have.

Regards,

I don't believe accidentals carry over to other staves, so I think the courtesy accidental is only for clarification, which is nonetheless particularly useful in this specific case since there is much potential for confusion. But please correct me if there is evidence that points to a different conclusion.

If I'm not mistaken, Bruce's point was that in many editions the notation is in the same staff:



I think I erred in describing an explicit A-natural for the trill's auxiliary as a "courtesy accidental"; without it, as here, it should logically be A-sharp instead.

Steven

I see, I've never seen that edition. Then the "courtesy accidental" would in fact be a required accidental. But still I don't think I've ever seen a trill between two notes a minor third apart (and not notated as a tremolo).

I had to think about that for a minute.

Any repetition of alternating notes a minor third or more apart would be a tremolo and would be notated as such unless written out. Here, though, if the auxiliary were A-sharp, the interval would be an augmented second and thus still a trill.

Steven

Sorry learned friends - is it still G natural/A natural?

(BTW mine book has it on the same staff like the example Steven printed.)

Hehe, yes.

If I read Bruce's statement correctly, the A-natural is explicitly indicated by a natural sign over the trill in the editions he's seen.

And where it's not (as in the graphic above), it should be.

Steven

I meant minor third or enharmonic interval. Is there any example of a trill between an augmented second? I don't think I've ever seen one.