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#1214863 - 06/09/09 06:36 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: virtuoso418]
GreenRain Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Very funny joke.

I have to insert smiley: smile

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#1214865 - 06/09/09 06:41 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: argerichfan]
GreenRain Offline
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Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Valse oubiliee for example. It's quite boring piece. That's just my opinion of course.



Edited by GreenRain (06/09/09 06:41 PM)

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#1214869 - 06/09/09 06:47 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: GreenRain]
Thracozaag Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 1980
Loc: Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: GreenRain
Valse oubiliee for example. It's quite boring piece. That's just my opinion of course.



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#1214874 - 06/09/09 06:58 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: Thracozaag]
GreenRain Offline
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Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 888
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Is this the first time when someone disagrees with you?

Is it that hard to accept the fact that this piece is boring to me?

Why is there need to spam forum with "smiley posts"?

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#1214901 - 06/09/09 07:25 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: GreenRain]
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
People have every right to express their opinion of your opinion, my good mate. smile
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#1214912 - 06/09/09 07:48 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
lisztonian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 266
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I don't know, but generally, be it his transcriptions or his originals, I feel Liszt tends to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. It's almost as though he goes out of the way to make a piece diabolically hard and yet it doesn't have much of a musical effect.


Do you think it is necessarily bad to sacrifice that? What is a "musical effect"? Just some thoughts.


Edited by rinforzando (06/09/09 07:49 PM)
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#1214915 - 06/09/09 07:52 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: lisztonian]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: rinforzando
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I don't know, but generally, be it his transcriptions or his originals, I feel Liszt tends to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. It's almost as though he goes out of the way to make a piece diabolically hard and yet it doesn't have much of a musical effect.


Do you think it is necessarily bad to sacrifice that? What is a "musical effect"? Just some thoughts.


It's pretty silly to say he's "sacrificing" anything, IMHO. I'd be curious to know how that was determined.

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#1214927 - 06/09/09 08:11 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: wr]
lisztonian Offline
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Registered: 09/29/07
Posts: 266
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: rinforzando
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I don't know, but generally, be it his transcriptions or his originals, I feel Liszt tends to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. It's almost as though he goes out of the way to make a piece diabolically hard and yet it doesn't have much of a musical effect.


Do you think it is necessarily bad to sacrifice that? What is a "musical effect"? Just some thoughts.


It's pretty silly to say he's "sacrificing" anything, IMHO. I'd be curious to know how that was determined.



Yes it is certainly true that Liszt has melody AND virtuosity, but the OP stated that Liszt "tends" to sacrifice one for the other. Apparently the OP thinks that the virtuosity in some pieces overpowers the melody, thus sacrificing one for the other. There doesn't NEED to be a balance between the two, music expresses itself in many different ways. I don't necessarily see a problem with more virtuosity and less melody, but it's all a matter of opinion.
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#1215002 - 06/09/09 10:25 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: lisztonian]
DameMyra Offline
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#1215570 - 06/11/09 12:14 AM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I don't know, but generally, be it his transcriptions or his originals, I feel Liszt tends to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. It's almost as though he goes out of the way to make a piece diabolically hard and yet it doesn't have much of a musical effect.
Try listening to Jorge Bolet play Liszt if you're having trouble hearing melodies. Listen in particular to him play "Harmonies Poétiques et Religieuses", "Années de Pèlerinage", or the Consolations. I don't think he lacks melody in the least and he gave us a lot more.

Originally Posted By: ecthelion

Some of his are good, I particularly like his Polonaise in E, but the overwhelming majority of his works (or rather, what I've heard of them) seem to be technical exercises. I hardly think Liszt can be categorized romantic.

How else would you categorize him?
Originally Posted By: ecthelion


He might have been the greatest pianist, and I think that really is his claim to fame.



If being the greatest pianist were his "claim to fame", he would already be forgotten.
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#1215889 - 06/11/09 03:45 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: FunkyLlama]
wdot Offline
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Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 728
Loc: South Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: FunkyLlama
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I hardly think Liszt can be categorized romantic.
*monocle pop*
laugh That's a great verbal image!

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#1215959 - 06/11/09 06:07 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: beginningpianist]
Drunk3nFist Offline
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Registered: 08/11/08
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Yes I can agree that Liszt does tend to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. His Transcendental Etudes, especially no.1 shows this. But hey, Liszt is Liszt. What better composer to show off virtuosity for the sake of virtuosity? :p
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#1215981 - 06/11/09 07:02 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
pianoloverus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Drunk3nFist
Yes I can agree that Liszt does tend to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. His Transcendental Etudes, especially no.1 shows this.


No.1 is supposed to sound like someone warming up with arpeggios etc. It's not supposed to be melodic. Quite a few of the Transcendental Etudes have beautiful melodies...my favorite being No.12(Snow Drifts?)and the slow one with all the arpeggios(can't remember the name).

I think occasionally Liszt does have too much figuration for the melody. An example of this would be his transcription of Schubert's Ave Maria. I find most of his other song transcriptions fantastic.

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#1215991 - 06/11/09 07:14 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: pianoloverus]
pianoloverus Offline
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One interesting thing about Liszt is that of all of the great composers for piano I think a smaller percentage of his works are performed with any regularity or are well known to all but some professionals. I think maybe I'm familiar with 40-50 of his works, but he wrote many hundreds if I remember correctly.

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#1216000 - 06/11/09 07:31 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
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Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Drunk3nFist
Yes I can agree that Liszt does tend to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. His Transcendental Etudes, especially no.1 shows this.


Huh!?
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#1216019 - 06/11/09 08:21 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: Drunk3nFist]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
Originally Posted By: Drunk3nFist
Yes I can agree that Liszt does tend to sacrifice melody for virtuosity. His Transcendental Etudes, especially no.1 shows this. But hey, Liszt is Liszt. What better composer to show off virtuosity for the sake of virtuosity? :p


I still don't get the "sacrifice" part. You can't sacrifice something that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. Did Bach "sacrifice" melody for repetitiousness in the first prelude of WTC I?

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#1227361 - 07/05/09 02:10 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
ecthelion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 72
I've procured Howard's Liszt marathon recordings and am preprared to give it a good hearing (already begun).

What do you like about Liszt?

Post your Liszt favorites. And specifics would be appreciated, ('Etude No. so and so' as against to 'Transcendental Etudes' in general)

P.S. Usually, with a new composer, I try listening to their best works. If they interest me, then I venture out into their less-known and deeper stuff. Granted I think it's unrealistic to expect every composition to melodically interest me, but I expect this atleast from their 'best' works.

When I started the thread it was from my point of view after listening to Liszt's more popular works; only a precious few appealed to me and consequentially the others seemed hardly worth listening to. From the Liszt sentiments floating around I'm curious as to what you see in Liszt and spare me the trouble of wading in piles of obscure un-melodic works.

Sorry if I sound biased, but I'm really prepared to give Liszt a fair hearing. Don't get me wrong, I really want to like Liszt's music, and am sort of pissed with myself for not getting what you people evidently perceive.

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#1227365 - 07/05/09 02:16 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18073
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I've procured Howard's Liszt marathon recordings and am preprared to give it a good hearing (already begun).

What do you like about Liszt?

Post your Liszt favorites. And specifics would be appreciated, ('Etude No. so and so' as against to 'Transcendental Etudes' in general)

P.S. Usually, with a new composer, I try listening to their best works. If they interest me, then I venture out into their less-known and deeper stuff. Granted I think it's unrealistic to expect every composition to melodically interest me, but I expect this atleast from their 'best' works.

When I started the thread it was from my point of view after listening to Liszt's more popular works; only a precious few appealed to me and consequentially the others seemed hardly worth listening to. From the Liszt sentiments floating around I'm curious as to what you see in Liszt and spare me the trouble of wading in piles of obscure un-melodic works.

Sorry if I sound biased, but I'm really prepared to give Liszt a fair hearing. Don't get me wrong, I really want to like Liszt's music, and am sort of pissed with myself for not getting what you people evidently perceive.


I applaud not only your willingness to approach Liszt's works with a receptive, open mind but also the efforts you have gone to do so, particularly if it means you have bought many - if not all - of Howard's recordings. That's a considerable investment that I hope brings you some considerable returns in either enjoyment or appreciation or both.

Regards,
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#1227368 - 07/05/09 02:22 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: BruceD]
ecthelion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 72
I'm sorry, but that post gives me credit when it's not due.

I never said I bought them. I merely procured them. A willing mind, yes, but forgive me, my efforts stop there. Hardly relevant to the discussion anyways.

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#1227379 - 07/05/09 02:36 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18073
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I'm sorry, but that post gives me credit when it's not due.

I never said I bought them. I merely procured them. A willing mind, yes, but forgive me, my efforts stop there. Hardly relevant to the discussion anyways.


Well, I did write "...if it means you bought them. Hope the procuring was legal! smile

Regards,
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#1227689 - 07/06/09 10:47 AM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: BruceD]
izaldu Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1250
Loc:
Well the Années de Pelerinage set by Berman is a must isn't it? First book specially, i think you need to listen to the whole thing. It's not that long anyway.


Edited by izaldu (07/06/09 10:50 AM)

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#1227781 - 07/06/09 02:58 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: izaldu]
SeilerFan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 746
Liszt is a fine, fine composer. Not all of his compositions are of an equally high level, but many of them are masterpieces. There is lots of melody in his music. One just has to bring it out. I am a bit annoyed that some people like to portray him as the virtuoso without substance. That's not true. One needs to read his scores thoroughly, and then one will find melodic substance. The Annes de Pelerinage are a prime example of amazing virtuosity coupled with melodic power.

Having said this, Liszt is currently not my favorite as I haven't really dealt with too much of his music. Spontaneously, I'd prefer Chopin's melos over Liszt's. However, I can clearly see myself becoming drawn into Liszt's music and learning about his musical core value in the future.

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#1227875 - 07/06/09 07:34 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ecthelion]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: ecthelion
I've procured Howard's Liszt marathon recordings and am preprared to give it a good hearing (already begun).

What do you like about Liszt?

Post your Liszt favorites. And specifics would be appreciated, ('Etude No. so and so' as against to 'Transcendental Etudes' in general)

From the Liszt sentiments floating around I'm curious as to what you see in Liszt and spare me the trouble of wading in piles of obscure un-melodic works.


What I like about Liszt is that he explored the entire spectrum of what is possible on the piano. Sometimes with unparalleled beauty and other times with unparalleled vulgarity. I'm not sure with which "popular" works you've already formed opinions. But my favorites on the more melodic side are:
1. (from Annes de Pellerinage)
__a. The 3 Sonettos
__b. Canzonetta del Salvator Rosa
__c. Tarantella
2. (from Harmonies poétiques et religieuses)
__a. Les funérailles
__b. Benediction de Dieu dans la solitude
3. En rêve
4. Concert Etudes
__a. Un sospiro
__b. Il Lamento
5. Valse-Impromptu
6. Sonata in Bm

If transcription of other composers melodies are fair game, Leslie Howard has (I think) 3 volumes of opera transcriptions by Liszt. Several of the Hungarian Rhapsodies use folk songs as their melodic basis. I like 9, 10, and 12. The Schubert song transcriptions and the Six Chants Polonais from Chopin are melodic.
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#1227882 - 07/06/09 07:47 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Offline
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I think virtually every Liszt piece is melodic. The only question is whether he sometimes has so much other pianistic figuration going on that the melody gets obscured.

Occasionally would be my answer. Part of the problem can be traced to some pianists who want to try and impress by not keep all the figurations at an appropriate dynamic level. According to Alan Walker's first volume of his Liszt biography, Liszt hated it when pianists played his music that way.

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#1227886 - 07/06/09 08:03 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: pianoloverus]
FunkyLlama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 359
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The only question is whether he sometimes has so much other pianistic figuration going on that the melody gets obscured.
Yeah, the Transcendental Etudes in their second version are like this. But I think he realised this when he revised them for their final version because they're a lot less 'busy'.

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#1227900 - 07/06/09 08:34 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: FunkyLlama]
ProdigalPianist Offline
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Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Is the "problem" (if there is one) perhaps not with the composer but with the type of pianists likely to perform their music?

I have very limited experience compared to many if not most on this board, but in that limited experience, a lot of piano students and young competitors chose Liszt (and the flashiest of his pieces) for the flash and virtuosity, and because those of his works they choose showcases their virtuosity to the utmost.

I have always thought I did not like Liszt because I associated him with this "loud, louder, loudest" pyrotechnic display of technique type of pianism. Having now been exposed to really excellent video and audio recordings (and a recent recital) of Liszt works by really _musical_ pianists, I have rethought my feelings about Liszt.

As I said, this says more about my limited experience than about the composer. I was a piano student as a kid but did not have access to recordings as a rule (my mom had one Van Cliburn 'Greatest hits' album and one Liberace album)...I am in awe of the knowledge a lot of board members have about composers and pianists.
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#1227914 - 07/06/09 08:59 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Myself, I have mixed feelings about the great man. Heart-rending, beautiful melodies. Astonishing harmonic sequences, paving the way for Wagner and music history. Fascinating original pianistic textures.

And yet... I often feel there's something missing; some bedrock sense of depth that I get from, say, Beethoven and Chopin. So that, sadly for me, I've always thought of Liszt as second-rate Chopin.

But realizing how important Liszt is to people on this forum-- and worldwide-- makes me think I might be missing something. Perhaps, along the lines of ProdigalPianist, I've been listening to the wrong pianists. Or to the wrong pieces. So there may be hope for me; after all, I used to think Mozart was just second-rate Beethoven until I was abruptly cured of that a few years ago.

I'll try some of the suggestions from this thread. Meanwhile, I do at least hold the Db major Consolation dear to my heart, as my grandmother used to play it....
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#1227915 - 07/06/09 08:59 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
sophial Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3469
Loc: US
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays4.html

Please click on the above and read Alfred Brendel's essay "Liszt Misunderstood" for an educated opinion on the music of Franz Liszt. He says it far better than I ever could.

Sophia

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#1227951 - 07/06/09 10:46 PM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: beet31425]
sotto voce Offline
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Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Myself, I have mixed feelings about the great man. Heart-rending, beautiful melodies. Astonishing harmonic sequences, paving the way for Wagner and music history. Fascinating original pianistic textures.

And yet... I often feel there's something missing; some bedrock sense of depth that I get from, say, Beethoven and Chopin. So that, sadly for me, I've always thought of Liszt as second-rate Chopin....

I understand the point you're making, and yet "second-rate Chopin" isn't an association I'm comfortable with. I guess I just don't find much similarity at all between Liszt's and Chopin's music; it's a difference of kind rather than degree, too, so the comparison seems inapposite.

Lest anyone misunderstand my point, I do regard Liszt as a great composer in his own right.

Steven
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Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
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#1227977 - 07/07/09 01:19 AM Re: Do you think Liszt lacks melody? [Re: sotto voce]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3796
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I guess I just don't find much similarity at all between Liszt's and Chopin's music; it's a difference of kind rather than degree, too, so the comparison seems inapposite.


Interesting. Maybe that's exactly what I'm missing: I'm trying to view Liszt through a Chopin lens, instead of "directly", whatever that means.

I think I did something similar with Bruckner and Mahler. (This may be a better comparison than the Beethoven-Mozart I referenced in an earlier post.) I've loved every minute of Mahler almost since high school, and I used to think of Bruckner as a clumsy, repetitive second-rate Mahler. It was only when I began to listen to what he had to say on his own terms (in particular, a sort of fusing of some medieval aesthetics to a late romantic idiom) that I began to appreciate some Bruckner.

How difficult it is to hear anything freshly, and not through the lenses of what we already know....
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