Lets create practice/piano partners!!!! You know how its easier to go workout when you have a workout partner? Lets create practice partners
who can email (or forum chat or whatever) to keep each other motivated and encouraged! I know I could use someone working at my level to bounce ideas off of from time to time or just to ask simple technique or theory questions and vice versa and i dont want to have to create a new forum item just for that.. What do you guys think...please post something even if its brief...!

Good idea mmile. I started a "piano procrastinator's" group once. Only problem was, I was the only one actually doing something.

LOL thats exactly what i mean.... How good are you now? Are oyu still a beginner? I dont know if im a beginner... My job only lets me focus on piano from june until mid august so ive played for 4 years but its really only about a year ;-)

Hi MMikle...
I posted a similar request a few days ago which had some interesting replies, but no concrete takers.....
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1213144

In short I'm willing to give it ago.

i'm in need of a push to pass from beginner to intermediate and was looking for support and motivation to crash this barrier! ....

How do you want to play it?
Peter

Hi mmikle,
I also replied to Peter's post. I think it's a great idea.
I think we are all trying to figure out how it will work.

Just a thought, guys (or gals)...
Maybe you could consider using Skype, or similar, to keep in contact, so you could see and hear each other play, in real time?

I reckon you could make great progress that way.

Rob

This is a fantastic idea and something I have my students do all the time - it can be very motivating to share practice with someone else.

I won't be taking part as I don't actively practice the piano anymore but I will watch and encourage if I can. Good luck.

Well it look likes weve got three that are interested. Kymber and petex, we can either chat on here via this thread or email. Im cool for doing it here just in case others want to chime in...

So where do we start? How about how often you practice? HOW DO you practice. I go at least 15 minutes a day but never more than an hour. I need to give up internet poker so i can focus more on piano ;-)
Also, what are you working on? I finished joplins maple leaf (wellll, the first two movements/parts) and entertainer and id like to learn another EASY joplin song (easy as in key key of c, f or g), preferably something kinda popular. Im hunting the net for some now.

MORE LATER....

PS Im not just a ragtime fan and I mainly practice/play classical...

Hi MMikle ..........
I think we may need to first of all make sure we are all at the same level .... I know for me that the original /full version of mapleleaf rag is out of my league for the moment ........Are you playing the full version or a simplified one?
as for the poker......i gave it up 6 months ago!
I can normally find 1 hour aday to practice which is great but is not refelcted in my playing ability....sniff sniff
if we stick to public domain pieces it will make it easier to use the same material and for others to join in the fun...
Skpe makes me nervious but might be fun!!
Peter

Ps i'm ok with a ragtime piece or classical

On the surface, this seems like a good idea - and it MAY work for some people. But in my experience of getting involved in the "jogging partner" thing, it ends up detracting from one's own musical direction.

If you really, really want to learn to play piano, then you will find the motivation to do it. If you can't bring yourself to practice, then I would really question how badly I wanted to learn whatever it was that I was practicing. Maybe what you are learning/practicing and what you want to play are not the same thing. It is very unfortunate that, when a person decides s/he wants to learn to play piano because of something that person loves to listen to - the person is usually directed to doing something entirely different in the name of learning to play the instrument (i.e. do these exercises for a few years and then we will consider your needs and interests, or if you learn to play classical piano first, you can then play anything, etc, etc...). It is that disconnect that seems to kill motivation.

We tend to think of going directly for what we want to somehow be "cheating the system" - we HAVE to do it a certain way or it somehow "doesn't count". So, we wade through the Thompson books or Alfred books or whatever, when what we really want to learn is to play some of the tunes we hear on the radio.

I realize this is often a very unpopular view. When Sudnow came out with his method, there were all manner of knowledgeable teachers lining up to "debunk" his claims that he could teach people to play songs at the piano without the years of exercises (the same time and amount of effort is spent learning, but the activities in the process are quite different). I am not selling the Sudnow method here, but am only using it as an example of a real effort by a real person to offer an alternative to the "common wisdom" about learning to play piano. His is not the only way to do it, but it is a way to a certain type of song play - for those who want to play that way. If that isn't what you REALLY wanted to do after all, then you will end up suffering through that method as you would any other that isn't going where you wanted to go in the first place.

You can certainly apply his general method to other types of music. For example, Hal Leonard has a series of books that show how many of the songs we who grew up with the music of the 60s and 70s on the radio, are actually played. You can find relatively simple books that show you how to read music (i.e. when you see this dot, you play this key on the piano). Then you can slowly piece together some song that you have a burning desire to learn. You know how the song is supposed to sound because every time you heard it on the radio, you listened because you liked that song - you can clearly hear it in your head. You will stick with it because you really, really want to play THAT SONG. In the process of learning that song, you are learning the keyboarding skills you need to learn the next song and the next and the next. Sudnow's fundamental idea was that the way adults stay motivated is not by breaking everything down into little exercises, but by diving into the deep end and playing the songs that excite them. It is an arduous thing to do, and will take months of struggling to get it to sound the way you want to hear it (especially in the beginning first year or two), but during all that time, you are focused on playing what it is you wanted to play in the first place. That is motivating, and it can be done. Sudnow said that it all comes down to how badly you want it.

Whenever I spent time and effort finding and then maintaining a "jogging partner" relationship, it seemed to detract from my original vision of what I wanted to accomplish. I was looking for motivation, not from within where it belongs, but from some external source. I exercise every day. I don't need a joggging partner and I don't spend money on a health club or exercise equipment. My motivation is that as a man, I don't look like I am expecting a baby. From time to time, I get a milestone, such as when I bought new pants because my waist size dropped several inches after 6 months of right eating and daily exercise. I wanted to do it, and the results I got along the way have kept me at it. If you are not motivated to do what you say you wish to do, then it is time to re-examine whether you are doing what you wanted to do in the first place, or whether you really wanted to do it after having actually tried it. Self-discovery is really a series of experiments to find what it is we really are about.

During periods in my life when I have taught guitar, I have found a percentage of students who have realized that the guitar was not the priority in their lives they thought it might be. To me, that is a very reasonable outcome. In that case, do something else that you do want to do. How do you find it? Try something else. When you find what motivates you, you will do it. That is human nature. If playing the piano is an arduous task that you do not REALLY want to do, then maybe it is time to question either your approach to learning or whether some other activity is where your leisure time is better spent.

Something to think about. These concepts can be argued until we are all "blue in the face", but that doesn't change anything. Those who want to badly enough will do it. Those who don't, won't. I have tried this and that method, but have been finding my own real interests in music. My interests involve fingerstyle and jazz guitar and keyboard, rather than purely piano. I have been developing keyboarding skills through the very act of making music on my Yamaha Motif XS8, and then adding my guitar to the mix and coming up with my own music. To some people that "doesn't count" as "real" music. But I can tell you that I don't need somebody telling me to practice. My goal is to enjoy making music, and that is exactly what I am doing - no long suffering over whether I am "doing it right" or whether I should learn this or that or how do I whip myself into moving forward.

It wasn't until I gave up on the idea of NEEDING a jogging partner that I began to look inside myself to find what I really wanted to accomplish. That is when I started to actually enjoy music making and looking forward to doing that every day.

Out of all these various methods, there seems to be a small percentage of people who really ARE successful with it and actually DO play piano or whatever it is that method teaches. Those are the people for whom it was the right thing at the right time. But their success does not necessarily imply that it is right for us too. We try this and that. If we are honest with ourselves about what we are wanting to accomplish and why, we will persist trying different things until we find our way.

Each of us has to find what "floats our boat" - and that is where we will find the REAL motivation to keep moving forward. We each have our own musical voice, and that is what we need to find.

Tony

Tony........
I agree that the motivation comes from within....and we will push to do those thing we want to achive ....this is exactly that ..... we are looking not really for motivation but help to deal with and to limit the frustrations along the way. The points about the method are valid and i am revising my present approach to learning the piano to enclude some popular music. I like the idea of learning clissical piano but the proccess is long and at times dry!
Like training for your first marathon 5 miles seems impossible then after a while just a jog in the park ....you just need sometimes a helping hand to pass certain milestones......
Encouragement helps!!

Peter

petex:

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I went the route of attending piano groups for support and seeking a "jogging partner". My post was based on that experience. Also, bear in mind that there is a big difference between doing something for a hobby/relaxation/enjoyment vs preparing for or maintaining a career. I know people for whom messing with computers is a hobby. For me, it is my job. My preparation was a 4 year degree and I work in software engineering. If I were doing it as a hobby, I would learn what I needed to learn - when I needed to learn it - to get done what I wanted to get done. Approached that way, there aren't any "dry" periods because everything is learned in the context of something I am applying it to NOW, and the length of the process doesn't matter because it is the journey from which I would derive enjoyment as a hobby. One of things I love about music as an avocation is that there really isn't an "arrival" in which the journey is done. There is always something new to explore and learn.

This is a different mindset that many people seem to find difficult to grasp in the face of the cultural conditioning we have had that learning to play an instrument must be an arduous task, unless one is cutting corners and somehow "cheating". The idea that it doesn't NEED to be dry or approached as one would a marathon seems foreign. Sudnow always said that the pursuit of music has long had a very high drop out rate, and his explanation was very illuminating for me, though it has taken a long time for me to REALLY understand it in terms of how I personally approach it.

I do understand that the occasional interaction with those who understand what you are doing is important. but somehow we become dependent on that and can't seem to make a go of it on our own. I have drastically cut back on my involvement in various online forums in favor of spending my time making music. I glance over the forums and will respond in threads such as this on occasion, but really - learning to play an instrument is a SOLITARY PURSUIT. Once we make peace with that and are still willing to make that journey for our own satisfaction, it becomes easier.

Tony

Seems to be an assumption in the thread that the partners need to be the same ability. I've paired people of different abilities - if the support relationship is there then benefits can still be had.

Mike - I agree. I have been piano buddies for over a year now with someone I met in the Sudnow forum. He and I are at different levels of playing but, we both have the same goals. We email each other regularly. We ask questions, exchange snippets of our playing, and we enjoy pushing each other along. It makes the journey just that much more fun.

Barb

Hi all,
This sounds great! I would like to participate if possible.
I am at an intermediate" level but I really don't think along terms of levels, I just enjoy playing!

I try to practice at least 1/2 in the evening after work,in between grad class and on the weekends at 2 may be 3 hours at a stretch.

I have a facebook page, not familiar with Skpe but am willing to give it a try!

Oh gosh that's funny

This idea seems very similar to the "Alfred's Basic and ALL in One Adult Piano Course Book" thread. Here people studied the same book and updated/supported each other - I think, I didn't participate.

I personally wouldn't want to go through a book like that, mainly since I employ a teacher. I could be sold on the idea of a group of people picking a piece to study together, but since everyone has different tasts, it may be difficult for all to agree.

I tend to agree, however we are all human, and sometimes a small nudge of encouragement goes a long way.

I am reminded of one of my favorite lines from any movie which came from The Great Debater: "Do the things you HAVE to do in order that you will be able to do the things you WANT to do." How I relate that to piano is that I very much WANT to play some of the great piano works, but first I HAVE to practice the less attractive pieces, and scales, chords, arpeggios, etc., in order to develop the necessary techniques to play the things I WANT to.

I will keep watching this thread, as a willing participant, if we ever agree on a way to do it.

Not only is that nudge of encouragement helpful, but having a Piano Buddy can bring about some self discoveries that would otherwise go "undiscovered". A couple of months ago, my Piano Buddy challenged me to write a song. It never occurred to me to try composing. Well, one day I took the challenge. Since then, I have composed 11 songs. I couldn't stop -- it was such fun! This was something I would NEVER have considered to do on my own.

Thank you, Piano Buddy, if you are lurking here .

Yes I am lurking!

Sometimes it sure is helpful for me, in going for achievement in a difficult solitary endeavor like self-learning the piano, to have my piano buddy out there as a coach, encourager, and just plain piano helper.

Its kind of like this for me: There are cetain favorite movies I enjoy better when they are televised than when I watch them on DVD. Same for songs...I seem to enjoy them more on the radio than when I play them on CD. Its like I enjoy them more when I know some other folks are out there enjoying them with me!

My piano buddy is far more advanced than me, yet she is very patient with my ridiculous questions. We send each other our play, and I find it a great source of comraderie and mutual support.

Maybe its a question of how each individual prefers to learn. Maybe some prefer to go through the musical journey alone. Maybe others may benefit from the support of others.

If you think that it may be to your advantage to benefit from the opportunity of connecting with other(s)to help with your piano learning, (if that is a learning mode that you might benefit from)I recommend trying to find a piano buddy.

If this is a mode of learning that you might like, and you find one half as good as Swingin' Barb, then you will be in for a great musical ride where ideas are shared and growth is not only encouraged.....but fun!

Hey Ang, you just blew our cover.

We had a group of players here in the Twin Cities that Tony alluded to that got together monthly (more or less) to support each other's efforts. This went on for the better part of ten years until I just grew weary of organizing it. Originally the group was just Sudnow students but eventually it became just a group of amateur players coming from a number of different perspectives. In the beginning the content was pretty structured but eventually it just became more of a social gathering to talk and play a little. As a group we hired a number of local pros to come and talk and play for us - which was great fun and I would highly recommend it.

In the end it came down to what Barb and others have intuited, we weren't all involved for the same reasons and eventually dealing with the fluidity of the group, and not wanting to "leave anyone out", just made it less important for everyone.

I think at the end of the day most of the learning takes place in solitude in front of the piano. To the extent that some social interaction encourages us to do that, it's valuable - it's when that interaction starts to become a substitute for the solitary pursuit that the value disappears.

We ended up with as many "listeners" as we did "players" and each group seemed to enjoy the other so I didn't worry about it too much. I guess my counsel is to try stuff. If it works, great, if it doesn't, try something else.

Markham NAILED exactly what I was getting at! Thanks!

By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed that early Sudnow study group. I certainly hope people don't get the idea that I might think interaction with others is a bad thing. The problem I am talking about is when such interaction becomes (even in part), a substitute for actually playing piano (or guitar, or ...). That happens all too easily, much as one can intend to watch one half hour program on TV and end up 4 hours later still watching TV. It becomes the "path of least resistance".

There are always going to be "practice buddy" situations that work, even if only for a while, others that don't work at all, and others that are fun but distracting. When I post something as I did here, it is something to consider as you make your decision to do whatever it is the thread is discussing, rather than that what I have said is the ONLY possible appraoch. Going into a "practice buddy" situation, if you are aware of the potential pitfalls, you can make informed decisions as you go along.

Everybody is at least slightly different in their approach to learning and the needs associated with that learning. Some of us tend to get distracted easier than others. As I recall the Sudnow study group, many of us drifted into talking about, rather than playing, piano. Markham didn't. At every gathering, he had something to play and his focus was always on playing and the interesting things he was doing to enhance that activity, which included attending live performances, having a variety of music to play, new recordings to listen to, and even employing other ideas outside the Sudnow method. These meetings were initially held at a local piano store, and then moved to Markham's house where he had a wonderful Yamaha grand piano. Markham did not drift into distraction, and nothing he did (or didn't do) was a factor in the rest of us drifting into distraction.

Personally, I have found that occasionally mentoring somebody as they begin to learn to play guitar, has really been helpful to me as I re-examine "the basics" through that person's eyes. But there is a point at which such mentoring becomes a distraction, and I have learned when to steer that person to other forms of learning so I don't start using the mentoring as an "avoidance" (as the book "The War of Art" talks about so clearly).

So, my advice to those considering the idea of a practice buddy is to go into it with the awareness of what that activity is having on your own progress. As long as it is helpful, by all means - go for it. But recognize when it isn't, and then do something else instead.

But above all, remember that we are ultimately responsible for our own motivation - it has to come from within. Also, don't get trapped into believing that there is only one way to accomplish your goals, and that any deviation from that is "cheating". You need to stay motivated to continue to work toward your goals. Be aware that your goals can change as you progress and that if something you are doing is becoming burdensome, maybe it is time to reconsider that activity and possibly replace it with something more conducive to keeping your motivation up and you interested and engaged. Take responsibility for your own progress, and keep control of the decisions regarding your journey in your own hands. Never make somebody else (i.e. a teacher, book, practice buddy, etc.) responsible for your own motivation and ultimate success.

If you listen to yourself and your own needs, you might find your interests morphing into something other than purely playing piano. If that happens, I would consider it a good thing. You are discovering your true motivations and are then engaging in the type of music making that reflects your true inner voice, rather than trying to be something or somebody that you really aren't. There is certainly no shame in finding that, though you want to make music, it may not necessarily always be solo piano. Clearly, there are many for whom the piano is the ONLY thing they want to do, and that is fine. But for others (including me), that is not necessarily true, and trying to force-feed just the piano on oneself in that situation will be a recipe for failure and frustration.

So, my point is that if you find yourself losing motivation and having to struggle to bring yourself to play, consider a broader picture than simply that you need somebody else to shore up that flagging interest level. While that might be true in some cases at certain times (I am NOT denying that possibility), it might also be true that you are in the process of discovering your true musical interests, and they may not be what you originally thought they were. Allow for that, and you will be much happier and successful in your music making.

The reason I am saying these things in this post is that, whenever I read through various threads in these forums, it always strikes me that many people make what should be a fun past time, into an arduous task fraught with a lot of angst and struggle. I find that both amazing and sad. I have experienced that myself, and finally made the decision to just stop doing that and instead listen to my real musical wants/needs. I am now enjoying my music-making time and am playing guitar, some piano, and taking advantage of all the things my Yamaha Motif XS can do. I am coming up with music that I create using a variety of instrument voices (not karaoke-like patterns that some keyboards provide, but instead I am playing EVERYTHING in my music). This is a far cry from focusing purely on the Sudnow method, but I have learned much on many levels from my time with the Sudnow method, and will always drop back into it when I feel the need/interest.

Unless you are a concert classical pianist or other professional musician that requires the disciplined expertise that comes from years of disciplined focus and sheer hard work that any skilled profession requires, music should (could?) be fun. Sudnow used to talk about his method being for adults who wanted to engage in "song play" at the piano, rather than for the classical music pianist who is literally "preparing for the Olympics". I am finally coming to understand this differentiation.

If all this sounds like gibberish (or at least something not based in any sort of reality) now, just give it some thought and time to settle in. My sincere hope is that other people DO come to realize these things and take them to heart - whatever their musical interest is and how they choose to pursue that.

Tony

I think there are some good points in your posts here, but your attempt to characterize many of those who are attempting to learn classical techniques and classical repertoire as engaging in "an arduous task fraught with a lot of angst and struggle" is too much. It seems to be a too common theme with some who like Sudnow and other approaches to pop improvisation to belittle classical music and classical training and I just don't understand it.

Saying music as a hobby should be "fun" is fine as long as your definition of fun isn't limited to some shallow pursuit that limits method, discipline, and, yes, a little struggle. In my case I use the word "satisfaction". Music is just a hobby for me, but I like the systematic (and often slow) study that is required for playing Bach, Beethoven, or Brahms well. It is deeply satisfying to me and is all the fun I need from a hobby right now.

Paul:

I am not belittling anything! If that is what you read into my post, then I apologize for not communicating clearly. Regardless of the kind of music you choose to play, it can be an enjoyable experience. I have played guitar for the better part of 30 years, and have taught myself to read music, to understand music theory, and have played full time professionally playing jazz standards show tunes, and the like in a trio setting. I have "paid my dues". For me, keyboard/piano is an avocation that, when approached with that mindset, can be a relaxing and enjoyable experience separate from the mindset I bring to my professional life. Being enjoyable and having the "caring" that Sudnow DID talk about (i.e. the discipline to be consistent and paying attention to the details that differentiate quality from sloppiness) do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I don't see the Sudnow method as shallow and there is no limit to the discipline a person chooses to bring to the table. That seems like a stereotype of the non-classical approach to playing piano. Sudnow played VERY well, on par with many accomplished jazz pianists. Whether a student of his method chooses to do so or not is up to that student. Sudnow gave people a starting point that they can take in any direction they choose.

The sum total of my message is simply to enjoy what you are doing, especially if it is for relaxation/avocation reasons.

Tony

...one other thing to (hopefully) insure that my context is being understood:

My quoted comment:

The reason I am saying these things in this post is that, whenever I read through various threads in these forums, it always strikes me that many people make what should be a fun past time, into an arduous task fraught with a lot of angst and struggle. I find that both amazing and sad. I have experienced that myself, and finally made the decision to just stop doing that and instead listen to my real musical wants/needs.

...did not specifically refer to classical music and those attempting to learn it. These comments apply to ANY PERSON LEARNING ANY STYLE OF MUSIC for whom it has lost its enjoyable aspects. These issues are not confined to classical music, and among such posts in these forums, every style of music is represented.

Granted, I said that Sudnow, in clarifying who his method was intended for, specifically said it was for those interested in song play at the piano for personal enjoyment, rather than those who had chosen the much more arduous path of playing the classics. He was not "putting down" those who wanted to study classical music, but instead telling people who wished to play other types of music that there is a way to do that too.

With the mindset that a person is pursuing something that s/he holds close to his or her heart, the disciplines necessary to achieve that "something" are viewed very differently than when that person has lost his or her original vision and is merely "keep on keepin' on" because that person feels s/he "should". I am telling people that, when that time comes, the ability to step back and re-evaluate their intentions is a very valuable thing to do. I go into some detail because I believe a context for understanding what I am talking about is important. That context DOES NOT include an attack on or a belittling of, any style of music, whether classical or otherwise.

To me (and hopefully to others here with some clarifications) my words are not an attack on those learning classical music or any other style. I am speaking from personal experience, in the hopes that others who experience similar struggles along the way will benefit from some of what I am saying. I saw people in the Sudnow forums struggle with this, as well as here in these forums and in guitar forums, and elsewhere. It seems to be a part of the "human condition", for which (fortunately) there is a means of confronting it successfully. Such a situation can be turned into a very liberating and broadening musical experience, rather than being seen as a failure and frustration. That is a far cry (in my intent) from the way some of what I said is being interpreted.

Regards,

Tony

I'm not accusing any particular method of being shallow. I am saying that learning to play the piano well is an arduous task for most people and if your definition of fun excludes arduous tasks, then you're going not going to get very far. The challenge is to keep it fun and satisfying even when it is arduous and you are struggling with new things.


I agree with this 100%, so I'm not sure we're that far apart.

OK, maybe this will help:

If we are still WANTING to learn what we originally set out to learn, then we will mentally frame the struggle to learn new things in such a way as to keep our motivation during that period of learning the new thing. However, if we have lost that WANTING, then maybe it is time to reconsider what we REALLY want to do, rather than hoping that somebody else can keep us going despite what our "inner self" might be telling us.

Some people might consider what I am saying here as a weakness (i.e. "folding" at the first sign of resistance). Instead, what I am saying is that we are individually responsible for our own learning and motivation to learn. In the process of learning a thing, we can find that what we originally thought we wanted to learn is not quite it, and as we become familiar with the territory, we are becoming better able to identify that which we want to do with it. Giving ourselves permission to grow and change as we progress is (in my personal experience) very important to the overall success of what we set out to do in our enjoyment of music making.

My personal experience has generally been that anything worth doing does take consistent effort. However, in those cases where we have a choice as to what we put that effort into in that we can change mid-stream as we see fit, we need to remember that we can exercise that choice to our benefit.

An underlying assumption in all this is that we have the capacity to be truly honest with ourselves, so we can differentiate between "folding at the first sign of difficulty" and when we realize that what we are doing is not quite where we want to be. It is said that, when a plane takes off from Chicago for Honolulu, it does not fly straight to Honolulu, but instead makes frequent course corrections to account for changing wind conditions and weather patterns. If it didn't do this, it would never arrive at its destination, but would instead be many miles off course in the end. That is the kind of correction I am talking about here. Instead of, say exclusively playing standards on the piano as per the Sudnow method, I am playing these standards on guitar in a chord melody style AND playing mostly my own music on the piano/keyboard. Because I am still making music and enjoying it, I do not consider my change of course to be a failure. If I had quit playing altogether (assuming the desire to make SOME kind of music was still in me), then I would consider myself to have failed at my attempts to play music.

Though some people may have a very clear and specific idea of what they ultimately want to accomplish musically for the long term, many do not. Instead, they may have a general idea that they saw somebody play piano at a party and everyone applauded, or they heard a beautiful piece of music and wish they could do that too, or any of a thousand different reasons people decide to start playing an instrument. Some people find early on that it just isn't really a high enough priority in their lives at that point and quit, and maybe take it up at a later date, if at all. Others find that the course of study they thought would get them where they envisioned themselves, really won't and they would be better off either doing something else entirely or change course. Unfortunately, many of these people tend to try to "tough it out" thinking that maybe eventually they will arrive at their desired destination. They will invariably look to other people to sustain them in their struggle, or just give up altogether.

In the past history of learning piano that Sudnow addresses, the standard approach was to learn to play classical music even if the student really wanted to learn "song play", which is a different mindset and skill set. Many people gave up because they were not doing what they really wanted to do. But the principles illuminated by what Sudnow provided, can be applied to ANY approach to learning music. In other words, make course corrections as you go along to stay engaged and motivated, rather than looking for somebody else to do it for you. Sudnow said that the best teacher is the motivated student. He was not saying this is a replacement for having a teacher (if your chosen musical direction requires that), but instead that ultimately, it always comes down to the student's own level of what he called "caring".

In the process of learning anything, I find that I learn more about myself and what "makes me tick". I consider that a positive thing, though for a long time, I felt that allowing myself to change course and explore was a sign of weakness of character (as opposed to "toughing it out" even if the situation really didn't call for that). Maybe because in the those aspects of my life where I had to take care of business and stay the course, I have, I am now able to allow myself the luxury of changing course as I see fit in the "for fun" parts of my life.

I realize that this sort of discussion (where people have a large investment of themselves in things being a certain way), things can get twisted around in the interpretation of what is really intended to be said. I have spent a lot of words on this, and don't feel that spending many more will help. Those who hear what I have said in the context in which I said it will choose to agree or disagree - for reasons consistent with the intention of my words. That is certainly fair enough. For those to whom my intentions did not come through, I apologize because I honestly don't feel that spending more words will make it any clearer, and the words that I have spent have obviously failed to communicate to some people clearly. Sometimes, the contexts of our individual outlooks on (and experience in) life are different enough that there isn't a common ground from which to establish communication. I can't fix that in an open forum, when one-on-one discussion in person might be the only means of doing so. I hope that this post is a step in the right direction though, because in my experience, both as a guitar teacher and mentor, a tutor in college, and a student in many things myself, I believe these are important issues.



Tony

Okay, so you're saying "decide what kind of music you want to play then find the best method, teacher, or personal strategy that moves you toward that goal; if you want to change your mind later, feel free." I certainly agree with that as well. It's not uncommon advice on this forum.

Paul:

Yes, I would support that and agree that it is advice given elsewhere in this forum. However, this is a topic I believe to be worth exploring. Some people are not affected at all by this issue, and others can be completely derailed by it, while most will probably fall somewhere in between.

It is not at all uncommon to see this sort of thing among undergrad students in college. Many people (including myself) graduated from their undergrad program with quite a few more credits than would be needed for one, focused major. The reason is most often that the student changed his or her major at some point (sometimes more than once). There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is really a normal part of the exploration that is inherent in the undergrad stage of education. I believe the same to be true for our musical avocation too.

Providing a one-line description of this subject is fine, but most people that I have encountered involving this issue would more readily identify the issue for what it is by having a context for understanding the real import of that one lne description.

Initially, I just wanted to raise the point within the context of a person needing another person to help with a motivation issue as something to think about. It was not my intention to need to post nearly as much as I have on this. Hopefully, though, somebody reading all this will have gotten some useful information. There are many lurkers as well as active participants elsewhere in the forums who may read this thread without feeling the need to post. It is a sad thing to see anybody eventually give up on music because they did not get whatever they really needed at some stage of their journey. This whole discussion is but one piece of what some people may need.

Tony

David Sudnow, by the way, was a fervent fan of classical music, loved Glenn Gould, and even played some classical music. He just regarded "song-playing" as more easily accessible to most people and build his Method around a narrow desire to, as he often said, "Teach adults to play songs" as a subset of "playing the piano."

Interesting that Sudnow particularly liked Glenn gould - the master at interpreting Bach.

Regarding people not wanting to put in the time, that has certainly been my observation teaching guitar over the years. But I did not always see that as a negative (not that imply goodness or badness in your comment either way). In many cases, once a person realized what was involved in playing to a reasonable level that one could enjoy, they would decide that it wasn't the priority in their lives that they originally thought. Considering that many of these people were adults who were very good at other things and productive members of society, I thought such an assessment on their part was fair enough. The only problem i had with this was with those people who somehow expected me as teacher to "wave a magic wand" and make them good players. Fortunately, such people were in the minority.

I came to the piano originally to learn that which I could not find reasonable teaching for on the guitar, hoping to bring that back to the guitar. The sudnow method seemed a reasonable way to do this. Though I learned a lot about how to frame the problem, as well as about how to teach myself more effectively, I have always gone back to the guitar with whatever I learn. The guitar is, and has always been, my first instrument.

Many people seem to think of the guitar as something to just bang out chords on to accompany somebody singing, or as that obnoxious instrument that is all distorted and slamming - the stereotypical image of the rock "guitar god". But there is a much longer tradition of the instrument than these that has produced some wonderful instrumental music. Due to the nature of the fretboard, getting to the point where one can "see" it as clearly as one can the piano keyboard the way Sudnow teaches, is difficult at best. I can do it, but it took a lot of years of - yes - EFFORT on my part.

For me, the piano is the instrument I go back to when I need a change of pace. It is not at all uncommon for accomplished jazz musicians of any other instrument, for example, to also play piano. I have a CD from Stephane Grapelli, the jazz violinist, called "My Other Love". It is a CD of him playing standards as solo piano instrumentals. He does a fine job with it. I can sit down at the piano and work out tunes a la Sudnow, and will continue to do so - but not as my main focus. Instead, I do it on the guitar daily, and will continue working at improving this skill as long as I live. The piano has added to my musical experience without having to be my only musical experience.

I sympathize with those who give up all too soon with learning ANY instrument, because they are walking away from a very rewarding experience that is not dependent on good weather and does not have to cost mre money every time the person wants to engage in it (after the initial investment in an instrument and learning materials is made) except by conscious choice (i.e. to take ongoing lessons or whatever). Music is something we can enjoy long into retirement when our bodies would no longer be able to withstand most other physical activities such as serious dancing, tennis, etc. In Minnesota where I live, golfers (for example) have a VERY short season, and an avocation such as playing a musical instrument is something one can do year around.

Whatever a person can do to stay motivated is a good thing, but to choose the right thing takes personal insight and honesty as to what the real problem might be. To have the courage to look unflinchingly into such issues and resolve them, will pay off tremendously over one's life with very enjoyable music-making.

Just some closing thoughts...

Tony