the symbol, not the pianist lol

Is there ever a situation where a natural is not an accidental?
I had a student ask me that today. I don't want to answer her until I'm sure. She is a fun student because she is always coming up with off the wall questions that really keep me on my toes!

There are so many goofy things about writing music I thought I had better run it by you all first

Thanks

My understanding is that notes on the grand staff are naturals, unless raised or lowered by the key signature. Notes which are not in the key signature are accidentals, be they sharps, flats, or naturals.

That's the way I get it too.

She asked if there was ever a time when we might see the key of C# for example, with a natural in place of one of the sharps in the key signature.

So for example, on the staff, in the Key Signature, it would be F#, C#, G#, D with a natural, A#, E#, B#.

You know what I mean? I have never seen anything like that, but I know I haven't seen everything there is out there!

You might see naturals at a key signature change.

For instance if the key changed from Eb to C, there might be 3 naturals in the key signature position at the first bar where it changes. Those would not be accidentals.

Yes, I have seen that too.

What she is asking though is:
is it possible to have a natural IN PLACE of a sharp or flat in the key signature?

So in the key of C#, you would have 3 #s then a natural and then 3 more #s. In the key signature.

Does this ever happen?

I just had to answer the same question today. There are two kinds of accidentals:

1) Any sharp, flat, or natural that is required, and this includes those that cancel sharps or flats in the key signature. The omission of the such accidentals changes the music. Period.

2) Any sharp, flat, or natural that is added as "courtesy". These accidentals do not change anything, but they are so much a part of standard notation that to omit them is just weird.

In general, accidentals simply refer to the sharp, flat and natural signs, period.

My understanding is that the term "accidental" referred to the symbols.

So what you're saying is NEVER EVER will you see one inside a key signature, right?

Like what I listed above as an example

Ah...just checked and apparently I am in agreement with the Harvard Dictionary of Music.

Okay I guess I am not being clear again, urgh.

I am NOT talking about the natural when it is IN the music, on the staff. I am talking about when you look at the key signature.

Is there ever a time that sharps and naturals, or flats and naturals are mixed together in that area?

NOT when you change from one key to another, say Eb to C and there are 3 naturals there now.

Envision this: The key of Ab has 4 flats. Bb, Eb, Ab, and Db.
Is there ever a time when it would be something like:
Bb, Eb, A NATURAL, and Db?

I've been reading music for 64 years and never seen anything like that.

Thank you. That's what I thought, but I wanted to check here before I answered her definitively.

The simple answer must be: No, not in the key signature, because then the piece would no longer be in the key of Ab major (or F minor). That said, I haven't seen "everything" in music notation, but in all "conventional" music notation, I've not seen anything like that.

Is it possible that some contemporary composer would want a piece where all the B's are Bb's, the E's are Eb's, the D's are Db's and the A's are A naturals? I suppose it's possible, but would he use accidentals throughout rather than writing 3 flats and one natural in the key signature? most likely, but, who knows? Many conventions are broken in modern notation.

I think it's safe to tell your student that that "never" happens.

Regards,

One movement of Hindemith Op. 11#4 has a key signature consisting of F# and G#.

(Not applicable to the current discussion, but interesting trivia nonetheless!)

Ligeti's Musica Ricercata also uses unconventional "key signatures".

I think the simple answer for your student is NO.

By the time she gets to Hindemith and Ligeti I think she will have grasped it!

Yes it does happen, sort of, but it isn't notated that way.

I have played trombone in a German wind ensemble and run into B double flat in the key signature.

Now, that is sorta-kinda A natural. But as it isn't notated that way, I'd have to say the correct answer is no, you are not likely to see an actual natural sign in the key signature. There might be effectively a natural note notated in the key signature.

The only time naturals are used in key signatures is to cancel an outgoing signature at a key change.

Interestingly enough, my music notation program has some very unusual key signatures available.





This program (Magic Score Maestro version 5) even has the ability to create additional key signatures. I have no idea where they got the built in ones, but I'm guessing that someone somewhere has tried to use these.

I'm not saying this software is anywhere near the best or most accurate, but it sure is interesting that they included this feature.

Rich

Rich that is exactly what I'm talking about. So I guess it IS possible to see them in the signature. Granted it's bizarre stuff, but I figured "never" was just too strong a word. Huh. Thanks!

This student has taught me a lot with all the research I do in order to answer her questions. I have never had anyone that digs so deeply into the "what-ifs" and "how-comes" of piano.

DraganPianoPlayer - if that really is your name... - has not solved the problem 100%. These modal keysignatures are found in much modern music - they are all over Bartok's Mikrokosmos, for example. That said, the natural in the key signature is not explicitly necessary. Rather it is more like those courtesy accidentals which remind us not to keep flatting a pitch after a bar line.

If we are saying that the music is "in" Bflat-lydian, than we are saying that the music does not include E-flat in its regular set of pitches. Thus the natural E would not be necessary within the score.

We therefore return to the basic question of when are these symbols called an "accidental." So far as I know, the term "accidental" applies only to those symbols which alter the key we are supposedly in. E-flat does not belong to C major nor Bflat-lydian, thus, it is "accidental" to those keys.

The problem is that with people like Cornelius Cardew and George Crumb, ANYTHING is possible in printed music.

Can you stick a natural in a key signature? Of course you can. But nobody writing music in the common practice era did. I can't imagine a natural sign being used in key signature between 1650 and 1900. Before? Maybe, but notation was different back then. After? Probably, but anything goes in the 20th century.

What is THAT about?

There is some really weird stuff out there that is considered "modern music". Much like some of the "modern art" I see, it just looks like a mess to me!

In answering her questions, you are teaching her some unintended concepts.

You are telling her indirectly that her opinion matters, that it is good to search for answers, that it is okay and nonthreatening for you the teacher to not know everything, that the two of you are a team working toward a shared goal. Etc.

I suspect this is a relationship possible only because of generational changes. An oldfashioned traditional student would not have dreamed of asking teacher an impertinent question, a teacher would not have dreamed of answering one. I exaggerate a little, perhaps. But that clear distinction between the authority and the subject is much different now.

That's interesting to see the key signatures for modes. I was thinking along these same lines. A particular piece doesn't come to mind, but it doesn't surprise me if modern composers are making more use of unconventional key signatures. Especially with the various minors. If a piece is all in the harmonic minor, why not make that the key signature rather than using accidentals to raise the seventh? I think this kind of notation could really catch on the future.

I'm sorry I did not understand your question. I gave you the wrong answer (or one you did not need), but the answers you have gotten have it covered.

Your student asked an intelligent question and should be praised for thinking.

Not that I've ever seen, but then again I haven't seen everything either. My understanding would be the answer no, but it is a great question by the student. What a mind.

Is it A melodic minor? (not traditional melodic minor, where the 6th and 7th notes are rasied only when ascending)

The number of flats and sharps in traditional key signatures representing minor keys do not show a particular kind of minor but rather reflect tradition.

A minor, no sharps or flats, doesn't mean that you won't see many F#s and G#s. So a key signature with F# and G#, if it is used in a movement or section or any piece that seems to be in some kind of A minor, does not mean that both the F and G will not be frequently naturaled.

In my opinion unusual key signatures are usually meant to make us think about things we normally take for granted, shake up the brain cells a bit.