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#1218658 - 06/17/09 01:06 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: keyboardklutz]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: TimR

Case 1, no teacher, most learn bad technique.
Case 2, bad teacher, most learn bad technique.
Case 3, rare good teacher, x percentage learn good technique. X is somewhere between 0 and 100.
The idea is to keep looking. You know when you've found a good'n - you'll never want to leave.

Unfortunately, the problem is that you won't know when you've got a bad'un.

Is "never want[ing] to leave" a good thing for the student? So far in this thread, only Ed Weiss has challenged that idea (though the benefit of changing teachers has been mentioned); coincidentally, in an unrelated discussion in the Pianist Corner another member said:

Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Your goal as a student is to acquire, eventually, the ability to work up a performance from the score on your own.

I'm very interested in knowing how much support there is for the view that the purpose of instruction should be ultimately to advance on one's own.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1218665 - 06/17/09 01:31 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: sotto voce]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
No man is an island.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1218672 - 06/17/09 01:38 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: sotto voce]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Sotto Voce:

Quote:
I'm very interested in knowing how much support there is for the view that the purpose of instruction should be ultimately to advance on one's own.


Steven, I completely support the view that the purpose of instruction is ultimately to advance on one's own.

I constantly tell my students that they should think like they are the teacher, and from that perspective observe how they play, notice what needs improvement, and think about how to fix it, using their previous lessons as an example.

I tell them that I am with them for a few minutes a week, and at some point will leave their lives permanently, so they should learn to do what I do when teaching them, i.e. notice tension, mistakes, phrasing, etc, and fix them. For theory, they can always increase their learning from books, classes, etc.

If they have that approach to their practicing, they can perhaps advance to the place where they can learn on their own.

There are at least 2 caveats to that:

First, I have had some students who appear rather clueless regarding music, and thus have never, to my knowledge, exhibited the ability to lead themselves anywhere musically. They simply do not know where to go or how to get there. It is all so foreign and new to them.

(I am the same way with math...I could never advance with math to the point where I could explore greater and greater mathematical concepts on my own.)

Second, The student should have a solid foundation to begin with of (gasp!) technique, reading, ear training, etc. How can they build a good structure upon a poor foundation?

So yes, that is the point...to teach them how to play the piano, with enough knowledge and experience so that at some point they are able to continue to grow on their own, or at least not fall backwards in their playing.

Having said that, there should always be room in one's thinking for input from other, more wiser and more experienced people, be they "teachers" or not. Is that not why very accomplished pianists pay big $$$ to attend master classes?

ps... the reason for not wanting a teacher should never be a bad experience with a teacher, or reading about someone else's bad experience, etc. Not wanting a teacher should mean you no longer need one on a steady basis because you now can actually play the piano!



Edited by rocket88 (06/17/09 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1218687 - 06/17/09 02:00 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: sotto voce]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5271
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I'm very interested in knowing how much support there is for the view that the purpose of instruction should be ultimately to advance on one's own.


Steven--

That's the view of public education in general. You wouldn't want people to go to school for the rest of their lives after the age of 18. The goal of education is to make each individual student proficient enough in many skills to survive in the real world.

But I think piano is different. Even though I am teaching piano now, I know there are limits to my teaching abilities. In the most ideal world, I would continue to take piano lessons and keep expanding my piano skills. I don't think there can be an end to piano learning.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1218710 - 06/17/09 02:37 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: AZNpiano]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
In the most ideal world, I would continue to take piano lessons and keep expanding my piano skills. I don't think there can be an end to piano learning.


Exactly... I too would love to keep on studying with a teacher(s).

However, I think the intent of Sotto Voce's post was that people could progress in a good way alone after a solid foundation was laid by a competent teacher.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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#1218711 - 06/17/09 02:38 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: sotto voce]
Barb860 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1644
Loc: northern California
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
Originally Posted By: TimR

Case 1, no teacher, most learn bad technique.
Case 2, bad teacher, most learn bad technique.
Case 3, rare good teacher, x percentage learn good technique. X is somewhere between 0 and 100.
The idea is to keep looking. You know when you've found a good'n - you'll never want to leave.

Unfortunately, the problem is that you won't know when you've got a bad'un.

Is "never want[ing] to leave" a good thing for the student? So far in this thread, only Ed Weiss has challenged that idea (though the benefit of changing teachers has been mentioned); coincidentally, in an unrelated discussion in the Pianist Corner another member said:

Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Your goal as a student is to acquire, eventually, the ability to work up a performance from the score on your own.

I'm very interested in knowing how much support there is for the view that the purpose of instruction should be ultimately to advance on one's own.

Steven


I tell my students "you will always be your own best teacher". This remark always gets my students' eyebrows to raise. I tell them I am here to guide them and be their coach; to explain and demonstrate technique and introduce them to the world of piano music. Ultimately, they must be accountable for their progress.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1218764 - 06/17/09 04:11 PM Re: End piano lessons! [Re: Barb860]
ClassicalMan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 165
Loc: USA
Now we're exiting the never-ending circle:)
_________________________
The thought of eternal efflorescence of music is a comforting one, and comes like a messenger of peace in the midst of universal disturbance--Roman Rolland, Musicians of Former Days

Vast untapped resources lie within.

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