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#1217332 - 06/14/09 08:42 PM Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
I tried a search as this must be very old ground, but no luck..This is recommended in "Playing the Piano for Pleasure," a little gem of a book suggested by a forum member.

I need technical help. Is this a book a good place to start?

Many advance thanks,
CG

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#1217371 - 06/14/09 10:13 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: cardguy]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I'm not familiar with this title, but Seymour Bernstein cites its usefulness in With Your Own Two Hands: Self-Discovery Through Music, too.

It's a funny coincidence that it's by James Francis Cooke and Playing the Piano for Pleasure is by Charles Cooke.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1217373 - 06/14/09 10:26 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: sotto voce]
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
Here's a link to the book:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9mboe91hxmy

Rich
_________________________

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#1217415 - 06/15/09 12:30 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: DragonPianoPlayer]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
I like your book. I glanced through it fast, and want to go back for a better look.

For every day warm-ups and scales and arpeggios, I do some part of the Hanon Book. It is very helpful to support a technical foundation if used with care not to over-do it or take the instructions too literally to "raise the fingers high". That can set you up for hand injuries.

But it is convenient, inexpensive, decently bound (mine is sewn in signatures and then glued as well) and printed. It's not a whole method in itself, but I think they take parallel tracks.

Some dislike it, others just assimilate it and keep going. You can motor through it fast, if that's what you need, or take other sectiond as a more moderate pace. I believe it went in print 109 years ago.

But there are lots of other ones out there,,,you could check it out.

People just learning the scales tend to "Cheat", and a teacher can stop little problems before they get to be big problems.
_________________________
Clef


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#1217420 - 06/15/09 12:36 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Jeff Clef]
LiszThalberg Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3288
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/5000916

This is the book I've been using. It's very informative and helpful for me.

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#1217427 - 06/15/09 12:53 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: LiszThalberg]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
The Introduction to Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios© 1913, by James Francis Cooke is quite interesting, giving a "history" of the development of the scale, briefly discussing modes (more information than most of us might want to know), giving writing exercises, suggestions for fingerings, and some practical suggestions on how to practice and play scales.

Following that, however, some of what Cooke gives can be found in any book of scales and arpeggios; some of it seems unique to Cooke: each scale is written out
- in two octaves, parallel motion
- in two octaves, contrary motion
- in two octaves, parallel motion separated by a 3rd or 10th
- in two octaves, contrary motion, starting on the third
- in two octaves, parallel motion, separated by a 6th
- in two octaves, contrary motion, starting on the sixth

He then adds
- major and minor scales in double thirds,
- major and minor scales in double sixths,
- chromatic scale in double minor thirds
- chromatic scale in double major thirds
- chromatic scale in double minor sixths
- chromatic scale in double major sixths
- chromatic scale chords of diminished sevenths
- scales in octaves

That's just for the scales; now, the arpeggios ...!

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1217511 - 06/15/09 09:35 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: BruceD]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Thanks guys. I hesitate to get into all this. For one thing, I'm a total hedonist and would much rather work on my repertoire. Second, I've heard that some steer clear of these kinds of exercises.

Let me ask you kind folks this, could it be reasonably argued that it would be a better use of my time just to set 15 minutes aside every day to practice trills, say, rather than working on scales?


Edited by cardguy (06/15/09 09:36 AM)

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#1217542 - 06/15/09 10:43 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: cardguy]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I don't think anyone can generalize about what's best for anyone else. My feeling about scales, arpeggios and other technical exercises is that if you need them, you'll benefit from doing them; likewise, if you do them and benefit from the experience, then you needed them.

At a younger age, I think I would have been fascinated by something as exhaustively erudite as Cooke's Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios. While it still interests me, and I have an admiring respect for such a comprehensive and intensely didactic approach to technique, I can't muster any motivation to master it myself.

Purely technical exercises may further our objectives; they may be found valuable in their own right, too. Or they may not! Each of us has to decide what we ultimately hope to achieve from the practice of music, how our time at the piano is best spent in the service of that goal, and whether our progress is satisfactory.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1217546 - 06/15/09 10:51 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: sotto voce]
cardguy Offline
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Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
Good points as always, Steven. I just don't have either the interest or the energy to try some exhaustive study of music theory, or even a cursory one. I'm 58 years old, and have that "time's awasting" feeling. My goals are simple: I want to learn to play as much beautiful music as I can, and I don't want to feel hindered by my lack of technical finesse. So, whatever mode of practice that will get me there the quickest is the way I want to go...

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#1217559 - 06/15/09 11:04 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: cardguy]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I think a certain amount of experimentation and even trial and error is involved in finding what's "best"; the most important thing is probably the resolve never to be defeated by frustration but instead be willing to seek different and more effective approaches.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1217718 - 06/15/09 04:37 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: sotto voce]
WhoDwaldi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 244
Scales are an important part of theory. To play well we need to understand them and have technical fluency with them. Having said that, I do not believe they are the end all and be all of technique.

In the 19th century, many tacky “bravura” pieces were composed by virtuoso pianists that used much scale playing in 3rds, 6ths, and octaves. The musical value of all this scale passagework is dubious, and most of these pieces have fallen out of the standard repertory.

But, the notion that one should spend an enormous amount of time warming up with scales (and arpeggios) persists in some quarters. Like all routines, if you get used to playing X amount of scales before practicing literature, then your playing suffers if you suddenly slack off routine. So, scale study should be approached with caution.

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#1217723 - 06/15/09 04:49 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: WhoDwaldi]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: WhoDwaldi
To play well we need to understand them and have technical fluency with them.

It's possible to understand scales without practicing them, and I'm certain that many people play repertoire quite well indeed without ever touching scales other than scalar passages within repertoire.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1217740 - 06/15/09 05:37 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: sotto voce]
landorrano Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2443
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: sotto voce

It's possible to understand scales without practicing them, and I'm certain that many people play repertoire quite well indeed without ever touching scales other than scalar passages within repertoire.



That must work in the inverse sense as well: many people have a great repertoire that they understand without practicing it.

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#1217742 - 06/15/09 05:52 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: landorrano]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: landorrano
That must work in the inverse sense as well: many people have a great repertoire that they understand without practicing it.

I don't know what that means, but I think the converse is true: many people have a great repertoire that they practice without understanding it.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1217865 - 06/16/09 01:14 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: sotto voce]
nitekatt2008z Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 552
The "Cooke Book" encyclopedia of scale and arpeggios is a book I have had and used for over 30 years. I only use it for reference though because if you attempted to go through all the scale and arpeggios in all 12 keys with the proper fingerings listed, you wouldn't have enough time to devote to playing pieces.

This book I feel is written for a serious piano student who is preparing for a concert career, not something for an adult beginner to worry about. I think there are other books, not as deep to pull off as far as technical purposes in playing the piano/keyboard.

I think some of the other books recommended by others here might be a better choice than dealing with the "Cooke Book."

katt

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#1217873 - 06/16/09 01:42 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: nitekatt2008z]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11166
Loc: Canada
Quote:
I only use it for reference though because if you attempted to go through all the scale and arpeggios in all 12 keys with the proper fingerings listed, you wouldn't have enough time to devote to playing pieces.

I downloaded the book last year. I only worked on the scales since I was restarting but I went through all of them. Using the routines set out by Cooke, one might spend a good 15 minutes per day, and two weeks was more than enough to get any scale rather thoroughly for the first run-through. Even if you practice only an hour a day, that would leave 45 minutes for repertoire and other things. All 12 keys would be covered in 6 months.

The key signatures are grouped in something like 3 or 4 groups (It's been a while), according to which pattern of black and white keys they fall into, and each pattern essentially has the same fingering. So there isn't a lot to remember in a sense.

I liked the clarity and logical manner in which he set everything out. It made things so much easier.

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#1217901 - 06/16/09 02:49 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: cardguy]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7422
Originally Posted By: cardguy


Let me ask you kind folks this, could it be reasonably argued that it would be a better use of my time just to set 15 minutes aside every day to practice trills, say, rather than working on scales?


Sorry, but I think I am missing some hidden logic in that question. At any rate, if it were me and I really only had 15 minutes a day for technical work, I would at least try to have a couple of things going, alternating the days I worked on them.

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#1217938 - 06/16/09 07:01 AM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: wr]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
My teacher's father, Dr. Eugene Ayres, contributed to the history of the scale--Greek and Modes--that the book contains. James Francis Cooke was a friend of the family and Dr. Ayres taught Greek at Bryn Mawr. I, of course, do have a copy of it and while I don't refer to it now, I find it very thorough and anyone seeking information on the scales/arpeggios would have more than adequate information.

While suggestions on how to practise the scales, prepare the thumb for turning under the hand and vice versa, there are numerous suggestions for that as well. Learning to play scales properly is an inherent necessity as part of musicianship. How this is done is somewhat up to the instructor and the student. Wilhelm Bachaus stated that scales and arpeggios were the 'backbone' of his technique which was fabulous. I practise scales daily in some form as suggested by one of my teachers and find it most beneficial. For those who feel they are unnecessary, then they must not have the same view that they are beneficial as I do and others as well.

As for the book, I don't know of a more sensible, practical compendium regarding scales in a very usable format.

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#1218758 - 06/17/09 04:00 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Varcon]
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3910
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
One thing I've noticed in the Cooke compendium is his regimen for practing very fast scales with "pier notes" as a device for developing extreme velocity. I haven't seen this approach used elsewhere.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#1218789 - 06/17/09 04:52 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Palindrome]
cardguy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 977
"Learning to play scales properly is an inherent necessity as part of musicianship."

Varcon, could you elaborate on this a bit. I'm an adult re-beginner, slogging through intermediate to advanced intermediate type stuff. The biggest obstacle, that I'm aware of anyway, seems to be my lack of technical skill, or maybe best to call it simple mechanics. I get bolixed up when the piece calls for too much speed, and never know what I'm going to get when I attempt a trill.

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#1219157 - 06/18/09 12:39 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: keystring]
soupinmyhair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 100
Originally Posted By: keystring
[quote] Using the routines set out by Cooke, one might spend a good 15 minutes per day, and two weeks was more than enough to get any scale rather thoroughly for the first run-through. Even if you practice only an hour a day, that would leave 45 minutes for repertoire and other things. All 12 keys would be covered in 6 months.


That's really interesting. I've always wondered how much is too much time to spend on one scale in one sitting. This morning it took about 20 minutes for me to feel like I completed anything while working on the C scale. I guess that's about right according to this idea. I always hear people talking about playing all your scales and arpeggios everyday or to alternate on 3 or 4 a day to cover them throughout the week. I like the idea of working on one scale for one or two weeks. It takes me more than 2 hours just to go through all the scales and arpeggios, which I've never been able to do on a daily basis.

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#1219172 - 06/18/09 01:07 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Varcon]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11166
Loc: Canada
Quote:
My teacher's father, Dr. Eugene Ayres, contributed to the history of the scale--Greek and Modes--that the book contains. James Francis Cooke was a friend of the family and Dr. Ayres taught Greek at Bryn Mawr. .....
While suggestions on how to practise the scales, prepare the thumb for turning under the hand and vice versa, there are numerous suggestions for that as well.

Varcon, that is fascinating.
In regards to advice on the thumb and similar things, at the same time the exercises seem effective yet one would wish to have a teacher. The author clearly intends the book for teachers, and he also admonishes the teachers to be careful with some of the physical exercises, since injury can result if done improperly or too hastily. While still forced to be teacherless, I would touch the physical parts very cautiously. There is no way of knowing whether one is doing them the right way. That goes especially for the part that involves a gradual stretching of the hand. That is a different matter from simply being able to orient yourself on the keyboard in terms of scales and arpeggios.


Edited by keystring (06/18/09 01:08 PM)

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#1219190 - 06/18/09 01:31 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: keystring]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
I have a chart that gets me through eight scale exercises a day and goes through the twelve major scales and twelve minor (harmonic and melodic) scales in twelve days.

It works like this :

Day 1 :
- C major scale, parallel motion, 4 octaves
- G major scale, separated by a third, 4 octaves
- B major scale, separated by a sixth, 4 octaves
- d minor scale, harmonic, four octaves
- e minor scale, melodic, four octaves
- Gb major scale, "forumla pattern,"[1] four octaves
- f minor scale, "formula pattern," four octaves
- chromatic scale beginning on C, four octaves

Day 2 : the same exercises with different keys for each

Day 3 : etc., etc.

Similarly with arpeggios, major, minor, dominant and diminished

I think this system keeps me a little more alert to what I'm doing than it would if I did all eight exercises for the same major and minor scale each day.

[1] forumla pattern :

This is sometimes called a "formula pattern" of playing a major or harmonic minor scale :

1) Start hands together one octave apart and play in parallel motion the ascending scale for two octaves.

2) At the two octave mark, contrary motion begins : the right hand continues ascending for two octaves while the left hand descends for two octaves, arriving at a point where the two hands are four octaves a part.

3) Continue contrary motion from this point with the left hand now ascending and the right hand descending for two octaves until both hands are one octave apart.

4) Now continue ascending, both hands in parallel motion for two octaves

5) Then descend in parallel motion for two octaves

6) Then contrary motion : the left hand continues to descend for two octaves while the right hand ascends for two octaves until both hands are once again four octaves apart.

7) Continue contrary motion with the left hand now ascending and the right hand descending for two octaves until both hands are one octave apart.

8) Finish the scale by descending in parallel motion for the final two octaves to arrive with both hands at the starting point.


Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#1219208 - 06/18/09 02:12 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: soupinmyhair]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: soupinmyhair
I've always wondered how much is too much time to spend on one scale in one sitting.


I learned something important about my own scale practice this last lesson. I felt I'd done really well with my assignment that time, which was the black key harmonic minors, 4 octave. I thought I'd been doing pretty well and expected to please my teacher with my progress.

That's not quite what happened. frown

Fortunately, I realized that the *way* I'd been practicing had caused this disappointment. I'd been playing each scale over and over, then moving on to the next scale. What was really happening was that when I wasn't using exactly the right fingerings or whatever the first time through, it would correct itself...then subsequent repetitions would go beautifully. But I wasn't really paying enough attention to getting it right that first time through. help

So what I've done this time is focus on playing each scale perfectly, with the correct fingerings, *the first time through*...and only playing each scale once and then moving on to the next scale (using that "you only get one chance" pressure to increase attention) before moving on to the next scale...but playing through the series of scales multiple times.

As embarrassing as it is to admit this rather "DUH" kind of error on my part, I thought I would mention it in case anyone else was doing the same thing with the same results.
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1219228 - 06/18/09 02:44 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: ProdigalPianist]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Keystring: Yes, you do need a qualified teacher so you don't do something that would damage your mechanism. I've played and practised for years now and never have had finger, wrist, arm damage. I credit my teachers for that now that so many are complaining of carpel tunnel and other damage.

My regimen is somewhat different from BruceD--who is always logical and gives well thought out advice--but planned so that in a week I cover scales in both single and double note format along with a Hanon exercise chosen at random. The rest of the technique comes from the pieces and occasional holding exercises.
I have about 7 etudes I select for different reasons and have days when I do one set and days when I do other sets--Usually set 1 on M/Th--set 2 on T/F--and set 3 on W/Sat. Sunday is my day to select whatever at random or not play at all. I try to plan a program that covers a variety of technical things as well as provide musical satisfaction to me and, hopefully, to an audience if I decide to play publicly.

Back to scales--you don't necessarily have to do them all in one day. Find a logical grouping and alternate them during the week. Start over on Monday. Margolies had me do scales chromatically rather than the circle of fifths generally followed. If you follow sensible physical approaches to playing you should not be tense and should have no damage to your playing mechanism. Follow Dr. Cooke's advice--it will work! smile

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#1219238 - 06/18/09 03:07 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Varcon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...This morning it took about 20 minutes for me to feel like I completed anything while working on the C scale. I guess that's about right according to this idea. I always hear people talking about playing all your scales and arpeggios everyday or to alternate on 3 or 4 a day to cover them throughout the week. I like the idea of working on one scale for one or two weeks. It takes me more than 2 hours just to go through all the scales and arpeggios, which I've never been able to do on a daily basis..."

Bruce and some of the others who have posted are very advanced players. When learning the scales, it's a different story. No doubt others are quicker on the uptake than I am, but it took me quite a bit of time and labor to acquire the skill of scale playing, and I still find that if I don't keep it up, my ability goes south pretty fast.

Only you can find what works for you. I try to run through them, fast, every day; or sharps one day, flats the other. But if one gives me trouble, I keep at it until the fingers are confident.

What the other players have shared is valuable. Whatever your routine, the technical studies will give you a foundation that supports everything else you do at the keyboard.
_________________________
Clef


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#1219321 - 06/18/09 07:02 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Jeff Clef]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Jeff Clef: Forgive me for neglecting to consider that some are neophytes and need specific advice on getting started. Dr. Cooke gives a one octave introduction which should be, in my opinion, easy to do IF one takes it first hands separately and watches the hand, prepares the thumb at those places it turns under or the hand comes over it. After some preliminary work on that and getting the physical control to play one octave evenly and with correct fingers say with the C scale, then the same can be done with G, D, A, etc., until all of the keys for the major scale has been accomplished. Coordinating the hands should be done, too, at a pace that keeps the hands together even if 'tediously slow' as one teacher put it.

I think you will admit that after learning a few of the keys, subsequent ones can be learned faster and with less trouble because the principles of playing scales is more evident. After the major scale for one octave in all the keys is done then the three forms of the minor scale can be tackled--probably harmonic first, natural second, and melodic last.

I now realize that I was first thinking of the four octave scale and anyone reading it might try that first. However, a gradual building from one octave, then two, then three, and then four is a sensible and progressive way to continue.

My apologies for overlooking that. It is covered in the book however.

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#1219327 - 06/18/09 07:18 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Varcon]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
I agreed with what you said, Varcon--- and your gentlemanly manner. Nothing at all to apologize for, that I can see.

I lived in Atlanta for years, but I can't think where Mt. Vernon is. I have an atlas, but the music books have displaced it...
_________________________
Clef


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#1219374 - 06/18/09 09:41 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Jeff Clef]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Jeff Clef: Mount Vernon is a small town about 165 miles south of Atlanta and about 90 miles west of Savannah. It's about 10-12 miles west of Vidalia--the ONION CITY! smile Not a music topic but at least you might have an idea where it is now.

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#1219376 - 06/18/09 09:42 PM Re: Mastering the Scales and Arpeggios by Cooke [Re: Jeff Clef]
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Jeff Clef: Mount Vernon is a small town about 165 miles south of Atlanta and about 90 miles west of Savannah. It's about 10-12 miles west of Vidalia--the ONION CITY! smile Not a music topic but at least you might have an idea where it is now.

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