|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
26 members (crab89, EVC2017, clothearednincompo, APianistHasNoName, JohnCW, Kawai James, Fried Chicken, CraiginNZ, 8 invisible),
1,254
guests, and
280
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,099
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,099 |
I said we could agree to disagree. End of story. And I was telling the rest of the forum that my opinions were a bit less simplistic than your characterization. I think I'm still allowed to speak to the other people, right?
Last edited by Theowne; 06/06/09 11:59 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
Yeah!
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395 |
Vacatello is doing great so far, such amazing agility and clarity in articulation ... I'm liking her performances more and more. A few places where the woodwind (especially the flutes) fail to keep up in the 1st movement, but that's not the pianist's fault... those are places where the piano should rightfully lead. If the piano plays faster than the orchestra can actually play, then it is the pianist's fault. And that stuff should be worked out in rehearsal.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,395 |
by pianoloverus:
The orchestra doesn't need a conductor or you just don't like Conlon? Since he has had to conduct up to 5 concerti on some days in either rehearsal or performance, I don't really mind where he rests his butt unless he fall backward into the piano if the lid falls down. I just don't like Conlon. While I appreciate the devotion of the orchestra to assisting so many pianists and having to repeat many of the concertos, it seems Conlon is not interested in helping the pianists appear at their best. What makes you think that Conlon is supposed help the pianists appear at their best? It is entirely possible that what he is doing is giving the competitors a test by not being a very good collaborator, in order to show the jury how the they deal with that kind of situation. It's one they definitely will have to deal with in real life. The Cliburn is as interested in how the winners will do after the competition as how they play during the competition, and demonstrating how they cope with an uncooperative conductor can give the jurors insight.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,162
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,162 |
It seems too subtle a test for the judges to arrange, first of all. Second, thousands of people have paid good money to attend the concerts in the hall, and thousands more are listening in live or on delayed tape. You would think they would want to give the best impression possible of the Fort Worth Symphony, the Van Cliburn competition and its organizers, and most of all of the music being performed. Instead we get intonation problems, contrasting tempos between the orchestra and soloist, and playing that is out of sync. This has happened to a number of the competitors so it is clearly a conductor/orchestra problem.
If they are looking for a subtle test that these competitors are likely to face, why not put on the stage one of those Steinways that show up in the showroom unprepped, rather than the three Steinways the competitors now get that seem to be fussed over day and night by Steinway's two top technicians. That would be a cheap and easy test and something that all concert and amateur pianists would understand and empathize with.
Fazioli 228.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100 |
FYI - this is one of the better sites blogging the competition. http://startelegram.typepad.com/notes_from_the_cliburn/
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799 |
What makes you think that Conlon is supposed help the pianists appear at their best? It is entirely possible that what he is doing is giving the competitors a test by not being a very good collaborator, in order to show the jury how the they deal with that kind of situation. It's one they definitely will have to deal with in real life. The Cliburn is as interested in how the winners will do after the competition as how they play during the competition, and demonstrating how they cope with an uncooperative conductor can give the jurors insight.
I think there is about as much chance of this being true as my being able to play the Prok 2 cadenza with my nose.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/07/09 08:57 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100 |
Yeah, the 'Conlon isn't really an arrogant jerk, he just plays one for the Cliburn' theory doesn't convince me either.
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,207
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,207 |
Is that an "official" blog? I couldn't find any criticism in there. From the blog site:
In terms of sound, Zhang said, the Hamburg is “more full,†while the “Cliburn American†that he used Saturday “was more thick.†For the technicians - how does that translate to technical terms?
Last edited by Axtremus; 06/07/09 10:39 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,837 |
I think they do a fine job. Sure, there are problems, but think about what they're being asked: The orchestra and conductor have to rehearse and perform 12 different concerto performances in under a week. Since the exact concerti were not known until the announcement of the finalists, the exact concerti - and schedule - were unknown to the players until the last minue. This means remembering and executing 12 different sets of tempi in a very short amount of time. This is in stark contrast to what most orchestras do - 4 rehearsals on one concerto, including 2 without the soloist and 2 with. Plus, it's completely fair to expect pianists of this caliber to be able to work with an orchestra's problems. They've all played with orchestras before, and the management contract they'll receive will include performances with orchestras who are not as good as Fort Worth. In my three years at the Aspen Festival and School, I heard probably two or three dozen concertos. Of those, which were played by one of the finest festival orchestras on the planet with some of the greatest soloists ever, only two stand out as having achieved a level of perfection where there were no issues with intonation and ensemble. They were Gil Shaham (Mendelssohn) and Stephen Hough (Scharwenka). Live performance always has its pitfalls, even more so when the stakes and adrenaline run so high. You would think they would want to give the best impression possible of the Fort Worth Symphony, the Van Cliburn competition and its organizers, and most of all of the music being performed. Instead we get intonation problems, contrasting tempos between the orchestra and soloist, and playing that is out of sync. This has happened to a number of the competitors so it is clearly a conductor/orchestra problem.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483 |
maybe next time, they would find a better orchestra? it's pretty unfair for all those finalists who have to play 2 concerti with only 1-2 hour rehearsal time. another option is to play only 1 concerto in the final instead of 2.
Cleveland competition has a world class orchestra, which never had such problems.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799 |
The Cliburn Competition will always be in Texas.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
I think the best solution, if you want perfect orchestral parts, is to have more than one orchestra. Why not have the Dallas Symphony do the matinee session and the FWSO do the evening session?
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799 |
The main difficulty is lack of rehearsal and that won't solve the problem. Also, I think out of fairness all competitors should play with the same orchestra and conductor.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/07/09 02:13 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
Very true, but no amount of rehearsal will help if the orchestra is simply tiring out after all the performances asked of them. No reason to change conductors, either. Orchestras work under guest conductors all the time. So to amend my proposal:
1) Have two orchestras, but with the same conductor
2) Increase rehearsal time, maybe by allowing each performer at least two rehearsals with each orchestra. This is one of the premier competitions, after all, why not spend more time on getting everything right?
OTOH, someone pointed out that the current setup is a good test of a performer's ability to cope with a less-than-ideal orchestra and perhaps a conductor who has his own ideas, and is a stubborn collaborator. Like any decision, there's pros and cons.
Last edited by Horowitzian; 06/07/09 02:46 PM.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483 |
if we have 2 orchestras, then each finalist will play 1 concerto with one and the other concerto with the other. so, it will still be fair.
i really think one orchestra for 12 concerto performances is too much, whether the players are good or not.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,100 |
Tsujii's recital selection should cement him as audience favorite:
LvB Op. 57 Appasionata Chopin Op. 57 Berceuse Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody #2
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453 |
I'm lovin' it already.
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,741
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,741 |
Wow, the Cliburn has gotten so mediocre.. Their orchestra is simply asinine. So unprofessional, they aren't even together with THEMSELVES, let alone with the soloist - terrible! I am speechless!
Not really crazy about any of the contestants either. I hope Nobu wins though - he's actually inspiring. Oh yeah, and now I'm ashamed I'm Bulgarian thanks to that FREAK.
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
8000 Post Club Member
|
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483 |
so far, a very typical Appasionata and clean.
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,178
Members111,631
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|