I had a parent start her boys in lessons "for the summer". I briefly taught them one and a half years ago...and they missed more than they attended. I used the experience to change to monthly payments.

Anyway today was their first lesson and she brought them both at the same time and then was 23 minutes late in picking them up. At last I suggested to the 12 year old that he call his mother (and he did). I thought there would be boundary issues with this mother. Due dealing with her over a year ago, my policy is now clear about lessons not extending past the regular end time if they are late in arriving. But I have not addressed lateness in picking up kids.

If they're only in lessons for the summer I may not mention it. But I see this as very disrespectful behavior. This family is from Pakistan and I try to keep in mind that people have different outlooks on timeliness. How have you handled this? Perhaps let mother know that I'd rather she pick kids up on time? Or just plan to have the older boy call home as soon as lesson is over and parent not there? I feel grateful for the extra income for next month...but also aggravated over boundary violations. I used the anger to clean house...(trying to make lemonade out of lemons).

Other parents with siblings bring one at a time. But this parent has such issues with lateness...that I may as well accept that one will be left waiting. Yet I think it's a way to kill a kids interest in piano...knowing they're stuck waiting through a sibling's lesson and then waiting to get picked up.

I would tell her that the current lesson time won't work out, and then schedule their lesson prior to another student, so that if the mother is late, you have moved on to teaching another student and you're not waiting around for mom. Also, tell the oldest boy that after 10 minutes if mom is not there to go ahead and call her to let her know they're done. Just make that a routine. Either she'll get sick of her child calling her, or it will be a good reminder when she loses track of time. Hopefully you have a place they can wait for her while you are teaching the other student.

edited to add: Oh, and while you're at it, give them each a theory assignment to work on while they wait. This would be in addition to what they're to do during the week.

Edited again to add: Not that theory is punishment or anything, you just might as well give them something to do

Good suggestions!

I also would try to schedule them before another lesson. I have done this with families I know that want to "hang around" and chat or just take forever to put their shoes and coats on too I understand cultural differences, but am not very tolerant of them as far as my business goes. You know the saying "when in Rome..." They need to know what your expectations are, maybe they don't.

But, if you don't have another student that you can put behind them, I would call mom and tell her:

"it is very important that you pick your sons up on time because I have to leave right away to .... (take a class, pick up my son, etc...)and I don't want them to sit alone outside when I'm not there".

Make it something that you can say you have every week (not like a Dr appointment). I even went so far once as to have the kid sit on the bench our front while I pulled the car out and closed up the house. Then I sat in the car in the driveway and pulled out as she pulled in. MSG RECEIVED!

Good luck, sounds like this could be a challenge. STAND YOUR GROUND!

Thanks for your suggestions. As I think of it, for summer I do have a place for these two with another student following their lesson. I'll plan to call the mother and reschedule. Then I'll be careful scheduling in the fall if either continues. I appreciate the supportive comments! And yes, that does make sense to just have a routine where the older boy calls if parent is not there to pick him up.

I don't see how them being Pakistani has anything to do with the mother picking her kids up late. It doesn't matter what ethnicity a person is, sometimes people are just late or inconsiderate. White Americans/Canadians are late sometimes or inconsiderate. Does that mean being late can be a white thing too?

Some of the parents of my students bring my students to lessons late every week.

I see NO correlation between race or nationality or culture. I'm always on time or early. My grandmother was always five to 10 minutes late. Same family, same background, same genes.

Different cultures definitely can have different customs and anyone moving into a new country or society will probably commit gaffs before they figure it out. If people are not aware of it, there may be friction without them ever know why. Gary, you are right that individuals within a group have their own personality, but that does not mean that the society may not have customs. The thing is that as long as we are in our own society we're not even aware of them. I think that most of the time people moving to a new country figure it out for themselves and it's their responsibility to do so. Once in a while a gentle hint may be helpful but one must be ultra careful.

Some things that may be different between cultures: what is considered correct or rude in regards to timeliness, interrupting, asking questions, being direct or vague, eye contact, physical proximity. Two very polite and honest people might strike each other as being rude and dishonest simply through the social cues they have learned. This does exist.

This seems to have been written for Western business people going to Pakistan:
Culture, customs and etiquette
and here we learn of a very rich history and deep culture
History & culture
However, for the present, getting the parent pick up the child in time using some of the suggested strategies is probably enough. You are not going on a diplomatic mission in foreign lands, and the lateness may be a personal quirk rather than a cultural thing. People do adapt.

We, as a culture, put an inordinate amount of importance on time. There are many, many countries that don't keep to schedules the way we do. So yes, there are Americans that are late too, but it is different than when people from other cultures don't understand that our lives revolve around clocks. Culture and [what we perceive to be] tardiness/rudeness can absolutely be related. What Keystring said is true, cultures can clash very easily. Something we think is polite (looking them in the eye when we talk to them) can be considered rude by them.

Keystring,

Thank you for the etiquette link! Very informative! I wrote down a few pointers such as "Give businesss cards with the right hand or both hands." Also interesting that the site suggested "You should arrive a meetings on time and be prepared to be kept waiting." (The history link did not bring up a page though.)

Thanks E&I and Keystring for informative responses about cultural differences.

Sounds like most doctor and dentist appointments over here!

Fixed.

Thanks for the fascinating links Keystring!

re: lateness - I poked around on the etiquette site, and saw this for Greece:

"Arriving 30 minutes late is considered punctual! "

Which goes to show why culture matters! (I can't even wrap my head around purposefully being that late!)

It's the bigger picture. Being 30min late isn't a big deal if the person/people you are planning on meeting have factored in the likely delay. So in the context of the culture, things "work out".



Well "inordinate amount of importance" is in the eye of the beholder (saying this as one who is a stickler for timeliness).

Ann (and other teachers), have you considered simply charging a fee for late pickups? I.E. "Student must be picked up from their lesson no later than 5 minutes after the scheduled end time of their lesson. A $10 fee will be assessed for every 10 minutes the student remains. Continued tardiness in student pickup can result in the expulsion from the studio". I know that there are other folks that we as parents deal with that draw a pretty hard line when it comes to late pickups so I don't think it's so unusual?

Maybe stating that late pickups will incur an (exorbitant) 'child minding' fee, or making it clear that your insurance does not cover unsupervised minors, will have a profound effect.

I believe this topic has come up before. Someone suggested, may have been me, that you could institute a "child care" charge for parents who are over 5 minutes late. Most young parents today are familiar with the stiff and costly charges they encounter if they are late to child care for a pickup. It's something like $5/min around here. This they seem to grasp, regardless of cultural background!

My contract lists a child-care charge for late pick ups. I haven't had to use it yet, since it doesn't seem to apply to parents who chat chat chat when the lesson is over instead of asking questions during lesson time.

I'd like to spin the negative into a positive: give the child theory worksheets, and make them stay until the worksheet is finished. That way, even when the parents show up 3 minutes late, they will be forced to wait some extra time until the worksheet is completed.

When the problem of lateness is not fixed, these worksheets will pretty soon turn into theory packets.

I am not for a moment denying customs. I was aware that some people would misinterpret what I said, but I was too tired to write more. I am speaking only from my personal experience. I've taught many families coming from many places, with many traditions. However, over the long run it seems to me that being late, consistently, over a long period, has come down to the quirks of the parents. The reason is that I am unable to go over time. No matter where people are from, most learn rather quickly that if they are paying for a 1/2 hour lesson and they lose 10 or 15 minutes and do NOT get that time back, it's a big loss. If a lesson costs $25, you are paying $50 for 15 minutes if you are 15 minutes late.

So when a student is late by 10 minutes each week, someone young, and I ask: "Is there some reason you are always late? Does you mom forget about time?"

The answer I frequently get is: "Yes, she does it all the time. I hate it."

Some tell me they remind their PARENTS, but the parents don't listen.

And who are these parents? KS, you could flip a coin. It just doesn't line up with country, language or culture. Not for me. I really think it is a kind of stupidity.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about, just to make it clear…

Again, this has nothing to do with my point. I may be misunderstanding, but when you post, using my name, I always assume you are speaking specifically to me.

In my teaching students who show up late lose time. One may get lucky if he or she is a few minutes late and I do not have another student coming on time. But that does not normally happen too often, and if I see a habit being formed, I will end all lessons on time, period, regardless of whether or not my time is free afterwards.

Again, repeating, lateness in my lessons simply isn't linked to culture, not for my lessons, because if it were, I would have noticed a pattern. This is why I mentioned my grandmother. I have another relative who is ALWAYS late. My opinion is that the real reason is this: there are people who will always consider their time more valuable than yours. They don't care about inconveniencing you so long as *they* do not feel inconvenienced. So if someone is going to stand around waiting, it won't be them. Often the get away with this all their lives in most situations. For such people piano lessons may be a wake-up call. They are so used to being late and losing nothing that it becomes a shock to suffer consequences.

Gary, my post was in response to the OP who wondered whether culture can play a role. I have set out occasions where it can play a role. I mentioned something you wrote within my post, and that part did address what you wrote, but the whole of my post is not about what you wrote, but about what the OP asked. You will note that I did not refute what you said, but stated that both things can exist.

There are times when differing cultures create blind spots which will make it more difficult for things to be resolved. It is good to have some awareness of this in case it is a factor, because it becomes one more tool for problem solving. In case it was a factor here, I mentioned what I knew.

Yes indeed!!!
Late picker-upper parents are annoying (RANT WARNING!!!)
What my piano teacher did to me as her student years ago:
I sat on her front porch, outside, and waited for my notoriously late mom (bless her!) to pick me up. I complained enough to Mom that she actually picked me up on time thereafter. What I do now as a teacher is similar: I have a bench at my front porch, and there they sit, waiting to be picked up. Mean? No. I am running a business.
Now, if I happen to feel like chatting with the student and have time after his/her lesson, I will do that and it is fun. But I have a family and a life after piano lessons. Sometimes I have to leave my house/studio to run an errand and yes, have left students on my porch. I tell parents this ahead of time.