I started talking about this on the "Working with drummers" topic.. but I wanted to create a new topic to kind of put my opinion together in one coherent thread.

I know it may be controversial to criticize Bill Evans.. but lately when I listen Bill Evan's CD, I feel like he is constantly on top of the beat, and border line rushing.. I really feel like Bill was able to do what he does as a trio because he had a very solid drummer holding him down and keeping everything together.


This is just my opinion.. but when I listen to the trio recording, some times it's hard to know where 1 was if I was just listening Bill and Eddie/Scott/Marc but I can always where the beat is when I listen to the drummer. Bill and Eddie were able to do all sorts of over-the-barline stuff and obscure where 1 is because they had drummer who provided them
reference

I hear it even more clearly on Bill's duo CD with Eddie Gomez(Intuition) and Jim Hall(Intermodulation).. Eddie Gomez plays much conservatively on the album. Both Jim Hall and Eddie Gomez seems to hold the time for Bill Evans, and Bill is sort of floating over the time that Jim and Eddie are providing.

Now I can understand why John Coltrane had problem with Bill's playing because of time issue. Or why Joe Labarbra had difficulty working with Bill because he rushed so much. When you listen to someone like Oscar Peterson, you can always hear 2 & 4 clearly in his playing, he was always swinging.. but Bill Evans wasn't like that.

I still love Bill Evan's playing, but sometimes it's difficult to listen to him.. esp the late stuff with Marc Johnson and Joe Labarbra because its gets too edgy and frantic for me... its like the time is constantly pushing and I wish he could just back off and lay back a little.

anyways this is just my opinion. I'd like to hear what others think.

http://jazz.com/jazz-blog/2009/6/17/how-good-was-late-period-bill-evans

"One might even conclude that Bill Evans no longer liked playing ballads in 1980. Time and time again, he pushes at the tempo, and can’t wait to double up the pulse. On “Polka Dots and Moonbeams,” bassist Marc Johnson and drummer Joe LaBarbera try to maintain the relaxation of the beat as long as possible, but about midway through the song they decide to follow the leader and they are off to the races. Even a heartfelt Evans original such as “Turn Out the Stars”—which the pianist had written as a tribute to his father a few days after Harry Evans’s death—is now treated like just another set of changes for a brittle medium tempo solo.

If this were your only experience of Bill Evans, you might think his sense of time was faulty. On “Emily” his shift from the rubato intro into the trio section is awkward, and even after the tempo settles in at 168 beats per minute—too fast for this waltz, in my opinion—Evans can’t hold it there for long. Soon he is charging ahead at 200 beats per minute, and then beyond. He constantly rushes on these performances, and Johnson and LaBarbera get high marks for adapting to their boss’s nervous and uncentered guidance from the piano bench. What a dispiriting contrast with Evans’s work from the late 1950s and early 1960s, when he was nonpareil in his sense of time and group interaction."

"POLKA DOTS AND MOONBEAMS" Bill Evans Marc Johnson Joe LaBarbera ROME CONCERT 1979

Marvelous playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxRIBrn9g...PL&index=13

btw I am not saying all late stuff with Bill was bad.. I absolutely love the paris concert CD.. but when i listen to his "Last Waltz" and other recording, I feel very restless listening to them.

Also, I can kind of understand why things happened the way it did. Bill had major drug problem and he had many physical problems that affected his playing. I guess a lot of the recordings that was released was not really meant to be released. Maybe some of the recording caught him on a bad night.

i know by the late 70's bill had changed his style considerably. he was also experimenting with a kind of rhythmic and melodic 'forward motion' around that time. he would displace phrases and slip and slide within the beat. but he was also anticipating the changes with his right hand lines. he would be resolving to the next chord maybe 2 or 3 beats before the chord actually changed. that may be some of what were talking about here. but maybe sometimes the tempo did change by the end of the tune.

anyway, i still love bill's playing--all of it, from the 60's right up till the time he died.

Dave,

that's interesting. I guess I have mixed feeling.. from what I read Joe did confront Bill about this and Bill asked him to just go with him. Bill is known to rush.. its just that by the end of his career, it was so frantic that it's kind of hard to listen to him. There are so many occasion where bill starts a tune at a medium tempo and they will be playing at burning tempo by the end.

For me the village vangaurd session was just the perfect balance of control and experimenting. His late stuff can be true gems.. but a lot of it really depends on the recording.

The Bill Evans at the Montreux Jazz Festival is interesting. It features Jack DeJohnette on drums and to me this is not really working that well. It seems to me that Evans has a very exaggerated swing feel compared to DeJohnette.
If Evans 70s playing generally isnt held in high esteem, at least he has the clothes to compensate it! What I don't understand is why all bootlegs and private recordings has to be released as records even if the sound quality is shit.

KlinKlonk,

I don't think Bill would have approved of the bootlegs being approved if he was alive. In some ways it's not fair that record companies release them.. I'd be very pissed off too if someone release a CD of me playing on my off nights.

I think Bill was brilliant throughout his career, and although I have reservations about his late stuff, its still great. But I guess I am leaning toward some of the early stuff right now. I'd listen to Bill Evan's last trio, but if i was to transcribe his stuff to steal his ideas, I'd probably steal from the stuff he did in the 60s

Thats what I'm thinking too since he was usually hard on himself with what he wanted to release.
There's some trancriptions available from Hal Leonard from the years 59-61 where the drum and bass part has been transcribed aswell. I know the process of transcribing it yourself is when you absorb the music, but nevertheless its fun to look in while listening.
From the 70s I think my favorites are "Re:Person I knew" and "Since we met"

i love "since we met" too. that's a great album. i think that was recorded in 73 or 74. i also love "we will meet again" with tom harrell and larry schneider. that was done in 79 i believe.

btw, regarding the drummers that played with bill i always thought that the combination of bill and philly joe jones was kind of strange. i think philly joe was great, of course. but their time feels were not really compatible in my opinion.

I see the points you are all making... he had some off nights, he was on cocaine, he played on top of the beat ... he was human, everybody has bad nights... I could say some of his early work sounded sleepy... I say they should release eveything he ever recorded. Would you want some editor to not release some recently discovered works by Bach becuase it wasn't his best work? I will enjoy Evans on an off night recording more than 80% of what todays jazz piano greats play. He was great even when he was messed up.

Dave,

I totally agree about philly joe and bill. but then again neither jack dejohnnete or philly joe jones spent that much time working with Bill(I think), so who knows what they could have done if they did.

The two Paris Conert" album are some of my favorites from that time. He does rush, but I felt like things were still in control.. the tunes didn't become frantic. There was still that gentleness of the younger Bill Evans.

Since We met is a great album too. Some of the late stuff is really top notch playing.

Jazz+

I think it was more than just having few bad nights.. it's possible that his overall health detoriation could have affected his playing.

Maybe he would have not had the kind of time problem we've been talking about if he was in sound health at that time.

I have some of the late stuff that are released from a major label.. and I have problem listening to them.

yeah, i agree. bill evans, even on a so called off night, was still fantastic!

in my opinion, there are no "off night" bill evans albums. you could argue that some may be better than others, depending on your individual taste. i myself, love everything he ever recorded.

etcetra,

yeah, bill and philly joe was just kind of weird to me. i still enjoy the albums they made together. just an odd combination i thought.

and im sure, as you had mentioned, bill's health and drugs problems didnt help things out any.

hey btw, did you ever see that concert video, i think it's from a concert in iowa. it's the late 70's trio with mark johnson and labarbera. in the video bills hand are really bloated. they're so bloated and puffy--probably from all the drug use-- that it almost looks like he is wearing gloves. it's the same video where he get pissed at the sound people and complains on the mic that the bass is boomy.

Dave

Yea I have that DVD..he did seem to be in a modestly good health condition... I've seen clips of Bill's trio right before he passed away and it was really scary how he looked. Considering that, it's amazing that he could play at all... not many people can be that sick and play at that level.

Im really perplexed how he manage to achieve what he did despite his drug abuse. Btw, what do you lot think of the "Waltz for Debby" with Monica Zetterlund, the swedish singer? It's one of my favorites, but then again I'm biased since I'm from Sweden. She described in her autobiography how Bill and Elaine would try to shoot snow from the windowledge in their veins at the time he was living at her house, and it was all very tragic cause they couldn't score any heroin. By judging from the record none of the tragic circumstances are apparent, at least to me.

I love that CD, it makes me wish there were more recording of his trio with singers. I guess he has been abusing his body since the beginning of his career, but yea, its amazing that it didn't affect him for so long.

I know I sound very critical about Bill Evan's late period, but really, with few exceptions I love most of his work.

by the way I was thinking about pianists who has strong Bill Evan's influence. Alan Broadbent comes to my mind. My friend told me he is one of the few people who has that deep, dark sound on the piano like Bill. I kind of agree.

It's hard to describe but Bill does have a very unique sound on the piano. and most piano player I know have usually have Oscar-Peterson touch, but not as much the Bill Evans touch.

McCoy and Coltrane both often played franticly, they rushed. McCoy really rushes on his trio version of Moments Notice.

Jazz+

I think that's one of the reason Miles Davis didn't like McCoy Tyner's playing that much.

I'm not that excited about McCoy but he is one of few jazz piano giants who didn't start playing classical as kid, and that's comforting for someone like me who didnt start until I was 12. His solo on Coltrane take of Soul Eyes is really gorgeous, anyone else has any favorite solos by McCoy? I think he sounds better out of his modal context actually even if he modalize alot of standard chord changes material aswell.

KinkKlonk..

I have the same feelings about McCoy too.. some of his playing is great, but some I don't care for as much. I have much more consistent opinion about Bill Evan's output as a whole. I read that Miles didn't like McCoy's playing because he banged on the piano too much.

I actually prefer people like Kenny Kirkland, Mulgrew Miller or Geoffrey Keezer, who took a lot of Mccoy Tyner's idea's and made it their own rather than McCoy Tyner himself. In fact,when i was learning the pentatonic stuff, I transcribed more Kenny Kirkland and Mulgrew Miller than McCoy Tyner's solos.

miles said that mycoy banged on the piano. that's one of the reasons why he didn't like him.

i think that bill evans had one of the most beautiful piano tones in jazz. oscar had a wonderful tone too. keith jarrett's tone is amazing to me as well.

of the younger guys playing right now, i cant think of person who stands out who really sounds that much like bill...maybe mehldau a little. mehldau reminds me more of jarrett though--especially on the recordings from the late 90's like "art of the trio 1" and introducing brad mehldau."

i have heard broadbent a little, but not really that much. i have to check him out a little bit closer.

etc,

yeah i love kenny kirkland! i agree completely: he took mccoy's stuff and some stuff from herbie and built on it. he really came up with his own style and sound. of all the pianists playing in the 80's and 90's doing the pentatonic, modal thing, kenny was instantly recognizable. you could always tell it was him after two bars.

what kenny have you transcribed? i was just listening to "black codes from the underground last night." that album changed my life for a while.

Dave,



If you PM me with your email address I can send you some of my Kenny Kirkland transcriptions. I have done Mr. JC from his album, and a short clip of him playing a minor blues on youtube. I've also learned some of his solo on "Delfayeo's Dilemma" but I haven't put it down on paper yet.

Speaking of touch Clare Fischer also has a very dark and delicate touch. I think Clare was just as complete as pianist as Bill Evans..I'd put Clare among one of the best ever, esp on his solo piano stuff.. he is definitely very underrated.

I agree about younger pianists.. I guess I either hear a very strong Oscar Peterson-like touch or more 'generic' straight touch. i know that's not a very good description and probably not accurate.. but in some ways, Oscar's touch is much more easier to emulate than Bill Evan's touch

What's a good Kenny Kirkland album to get? I've haven't listened much, but I like what I've heard so far. And I agree he has a recognizable style.