Hello, I have a question, maybe you can help.

I have two broken bass strings on my piano. They broke because of rust, but almost at the very bottom. Between the pin where you attach the end of the ctring and the first pins going up. This means, there is a gap of 5cms aprox between pins where I can try a knot with a leader piece of string.
Can you please tell me how to make this knot? Should it be very tight?

Thanks very much in advance!

First, you definitely can repair the string. You will need some music wire (string) of the same size. The knot looks like a U bent into each end that fits into its partner end. There are several books that explain this method. I have the Reblitz book on rebuilding. If you are wanting to do anything to your piano, this is the book to have. If you only want to know more about your piano, this is the book to have.

James

This type of repair is difficult for techs who do this often. The wire size (if you can even find it) and the close quarters makes the job several magnitudes harder than most wire splices, and even the easiest splices are difficult unless you do a lot of them.

Hire a good tuner/technician. If you watch him do the repair, you'll be glad you did.

Thank you all for helping me.

I called a technician who came and tuned the piano last Saturday. I bought this piano a month ago, and it had been stored for around 20 years so it was completely out of tune and the strings became rusty.

This technician broke three strings (from the middle-trebble side), and I discovered later on that this could have been avoided by releasing the tension a little bit before adjusting so the rusty point will be released. He was supposed to be a very good experienced tech. I was watching was he was doing. He never tried releasing the tension first (only with the bass strings), so I guess he knew exactly was he ws doing, he didn't want to break a bass string (at that time I didn't know about this tric).
Did he do that so now he has to come often to tune the three new trings that will keep stretching for a while? I also asked him about the two broken bass strings, and he said that he had to take them and re-make them at his workshop and charge a lot of money for that, no other option. A bad experience.
I will go to a library and try to find the knot in that book you recommend. Only one question: As the wire is not that flexible, should the knot be very tight? I mean, should there be no gaps between the turning wires, like in a fishing line? I tried with one of the broken trebble strings to make a knot but making turns on the wire was hard.
Sorry, I don't know how to explain this with the right technical words.
Thanks!

It doesn't sound like your tech did anything wrong. A piano with rusty strings that hasn't been tuned for 20 years is a mine field. Some pianos can't be tuned without having a few strings break whether you back the strings of first or not.

Your tech decided that the broken bass strings were not going to be something that would take a splice properly and decided to opt for string replacement. Yes they are expensive. They have to be custom made. That's not his fault. It's also not his fault that you have an old piano with rusty strings.

If you try to repair these strings yourself you are going to find out what your tech already knows, that this won't be a sucessful repair.

Disclaimer: I am not a technician.

Techs try to be careful, and might release some tension to try to break some rust, or use some lubricant at bearing points. However, strings break. Rusty strings in neglected pianos can be just waiting for the right moment and the tech won't have a chance to avoid it.

It might seem like he's charging a lot, but please have on mind that replacing these strings is not as simple as replacing a lightbulb (and that can also be quite tricky!).

You can see this thread for more info on broken strings:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1182500/Who pays for a broken string?.html

I've heard some techs don't like to splice strings, but I've also heard some times it's not an option (because of insane string gauges, or akward places for the knot). I've heard some techs don't know how to do it, but if yours knows his business, that certainly would not be the case.

This video shows how to splice a string:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-O7b0xfy8

You should also check Ron's other videos (the string-seating one might be also useful for this situation).

Was any damper (or any other part) affected by the broken string?

Be careful if you are going to try to do this (as in eye protection and gloves, string ends can be sharp). Also, you will have to be gentle with the poor pinblock, be careful if you extract the action. Be careful when you bring the tension up (it might not work as expected, surprise, and you will have to decide what can be done then).

Unless you really want to get into piano work, it's a better idea to let the tech work his magic.

It is not cheaper at all to try to do it yourself, considering what you will need, and the mistakes you will make.

Watch this video of Ron Koval, on how to splice a string

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-O7b0xfy8&feature=channel_page

but I recommend you to hire a pro.

Thanks all for your advice.

Well, maybe there was nothing that this tech could have done to avoid the string to brake. You know, I had this feeling of not trusting, but maybe I was wrong. He was very "rude" with the piano, he was not careful removing the lid and the action, he was cutting the excess of wire on the new strings and the pieces were flying all over the living room, he was placing the tools at the top of the keyboard, etc. I didn't like the way he worked. I am extremely careful with my stuff, and I suffer through all the process since he arrived until he left. Besides, with broken strings in the process I became really nervous and dissapointed.

I will watch the videos. I am very patient and conscious, and I would never do anything to cause any harm to the piano. If I discover that I can't work it out well, I will have it done by a tech next time I have to tune the piano.

Don't wait too long, it is not a good idea to play a piano with missing strings, you can damage hammer heads and flange bushings as the hammer is striking the remaining string(s) in an unbalanced way.

It's very rare for a bass string to break on the hitch pin end of the string. Usually when a string breaks while tuning, it breaks at the tuning pin.

It sounds like maybe you spent as much time selecting a piano technician as you did the piano!
I can't believe he let the wire fly across the room! That is definitely not professional. Was he an RPT??

It would be easier to replace the strings. You can order replacements from International Piano Supply. After you finish and have your bloody fingers all bandaged up, you'll have an idea of why technicians charge what they charge!

Its astonishing how many tools are necessary for a common string repair: dummy pin and coil winder, string hook, coil lifter, needle nose pliers, small screwdriver, tuning wrench, coil setter, and a good pair of wire cutters.

Best wishes on your repair!

I once had several high treble strings break the very moment I started to LOWER the tension to break them free. The breaks occurred either at at the becket on some, and near the nut on others. This was on a very old, very neglected upright with brown strings.

Lowering the tension first is no guarantee that a string won't break anyhow. It can lessen the chance of breakage, but it is no guarantee. If the string is going to break when brought up to pitch, the string will break when brought up to pitch. Nothing will stop it. Either it can withstand the tension, or it can't. (The tuner will not "break" the string; He will not be negligent. The string will break, but he will not break the string.)

Different tuners use different hammer techniques. Different pianos may call for different techniques. If strings are obviously rusty, or if the piano hasn't been tuned in many years, if may be a good idea to lower the tension first to minimize this particular cause of breakage.

However, this doesn't mean that the string would have not broken anyhow.

But, he shouldn't have had wires flying across the room.

I watched the video of Ron Koval and tried it again and again. But in the end I gave up. That job is way too hard for me.

Here in Germany it´s very uncommon to splice bass strings. I never heard of collegues doing that.

Gregor

David Jenson is right - they can be tough, especially working down in the lower section of an upright piano. (It is an upright piano, right?) Instead of a splice, you will want to splice in a whole new tail piece to go around the hitch pin. Not for the faint of heart and not a high-percentage repair.

Keys to a working splice.
1. new wire a little thicker (1/2 size) than what's there.
2. careful attention to clean bends without damaging wire with nicks from hardened tools.
3. Practice, practice....

I've had plenty where the old wire won't support a splice - it just breaks right at the knot. I have one piano where I had to splice a new tail in the speaking length down by the bridge - I ordered a new set to replace the pair, but just haven't done it yet. It's at my church and surprisingly, the unison blends with the rest just fine... I guess I should try and get it done this summer!

Ron Koval
Chicagoland

I saw Bill Spurlock demonstate this knot at a convention in New Zealand. His method is to first make the anti or clockwise loop in the new piece of wire then slide it over the broken piece and then make the opposite loop on the old wire and then feed the end the new wire throught the old wire loop and tighten...It makes it easier if each loop is bent to 90 degrees. Trying to click the loops together is fine with soft wire as per the youtube video but piano wire is very much harder
I did take some photos of this method so if anyone is interested contact me on www.pianobee@bigpond.com
Robin Stevens ARPT
South Australia

Hello everyone,

Finally I was able to make the knot and it looks great (to me at least). Thanks everyone for helping out.

I've been trying to post the picture of the knot but for some reason it's not working. Any reccomendations? I want to show you how it looks like so you can tell me what's your opinion about it.

Thanks!

Well, I can't wait hehe.

This is the link where you will find a picture of the knot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40072137@N08/3690227278/

I aligned it and then I placed the string on the piano.
The know was done at the bottom part of the string. It didn't break at the top as most comments I found referred to. Fortunately there was enough space for it. This string sounds exactly the same as its companion, so for the ear there is no trace of repair there. Nice.

I used a leader string coming from the original strings the tuner broke when tuning. Ahh, it looks so bad seeing the three (6) new shiny and continuosly-stretching trebble strings among all the dark-brown original ones... But well, some of you told me that maybe the tuner couldn't have done anything to avoid that. I'll have to get used to this.

My piano has a serial number of 10xxx. Any ideas about the aproximate year of manufacture?

Best,
Pablo.

Is this a brass bass string?

Hi David,

No, it was a typo (brass instead of bass). I already changed the description on the picture.
The color of the wire in brownish because of the rust.

Nice job!