Hi everyone,

This is my first post, I know this topic is tiresome, but I can't find what I need in the history.

I am currently shopping for my first piano. I have traveled around to all the shops in driving distance, and have listened to as many pianos as possible. I have read everything I can find and have started to form an opinion about what I think I like. I know that this might start a major debate, but honestly, I like the sound of the Boston's that I have heard. Yes, I have listened to the Kawai's as well, and I like those too. However, the closest piano I can find to fit my needs for price point and preference for sound is a used Boston. What I need to know is if the price point on this is a reasonable one. I would also like to hear from people who enjoy Boston's...not necessarily those who are convinced that they are a just a re-badged Kawai with a overinflated price tag. I understand and appreciate that perspective, but I am really just trying to get a piano that is 1. available in this piano desert and 2. sounds good to my untrained ear. Also, there are no Kawai's available to me in northern new england right now that work for my price point, etc, so this is not really a 'boston vs kawai' question...really I just want to make sure that if this Boston checks out with the technician that I am also paying a fair price!

Thanks in advance, here are the specs:

1999 Boston UP-118S 46" (black oak) #B 125240 $3500 total with delivery, which would normally be about $450 for the distance from the other big retailers to where I live. There is no tax since it's between state/private sale.

Supposedly lightly used, but I have to drive about 200+ miles to go visit it this weekend to confirm condition, sound, etc.

Also, what are the difference between the S and the E?

Thank you!

Hi lvp, welcome to the forum. I don't have a good sense of pricing of the Boston uprights, so I can't tell you if that's a good price or not, but I would like to reassure you that it's okay to like and buy a Boston. They're good pianos, and if you search the archives, you'll find lots of happy Boston owners. People stress the Kawai connection so much here simply to dispel any potential marketing notion that Bostons are little Steinways.

The important point is that you have shopped extensively and have developed a clear preference for the Boston upright.

Yes, that is a fair price (I'm basing this on Larry Fine's prices and his piano depreciation schedule) if it is in average condition or better. I don't know what the difference between S and E is.

I used to own a Boston upright. They're fine, reliable instruments, but overpriced (as so many pianos are) and Steinway uses deceptive marketing to sell them, claiming that Boston pianos are better than _________. They are not just re-branded Kawai pianos, though, and that should be obvious when playing them. FWIW, I like Kawai because it uses a composite action, which is infinitely more stable than wood. As you've said, though, none of that is particularly relevant to you, but interesting nonetheless.

Bottom line... if this is the piano you want, it is a fair price assuming good condition, so you should buy it.

I am feeling better already....thank you!

I believe the Boston S is in the unusual (to me) American style, with a slightly sloping front panel, whereas the E is in the traditional style, as per most large uprights such as the Yamaha U1. Have the seller email you a pic first of all to make sure you like the look of it. Black oak is an unusual finish too - quite grainy..

One problem with a private sale, is that although you may have tried other pianos of the same make in a dealer's showroom and been able to compare like with like, in a customer's home you have only your memories of tone and touch for comparisons.

LVP,

I played(?) a used Boston UP-118, black oak finish, while I was piano shopping. Unfortunately, I didn't care for the black oak finish and it had some finish problem. Otherwise, I probably would have bought it. If the one you've found checks out okay and you like the touch and sound (and finish), it's a well made instrument and will probably make you quite happy. Since it's a private sale, you won't have any warranty. Be sure to have it checked out by a competent tech.

I understand "piano deserts". I live in one, although I thought mine was a black hole, not a desert. I drove 250 miles (each way) to see the Boston I didn't buy. But, the trip did let me see several other pianos on my list to shop. If your Boston isn't "the one", don't buy just to get the process over with. Yours will show up. Just enjoy the ride! And good luck!

Charles

Glad to hear I am not alone in the desert. Holy cow this is tough...but I am glad to hear that others have played and liked the 118. I kind of like the finish, since I have a really rustic decor, but I do agree it looks a little odd with the slant. Weird that is the only difference, seems odd that they would bother. I should probably order the Boston DVD from Steinway, but I didn't want to be swayed by all the good marketing.

I talked to one more dealer today who is within driving distance (the only one I haven't been to yet) and they only have one (yep, ONE) piano that they think I would like, as everything else is out on rental for the summer festival season. Apparently it is a used Petrof, but I didn't get the specs (note to self: don't take calls about pianos while driving...)The owner thought if I liked the Bostons I would appreciate it sound wise, and I figure I'll go check it out. Good thing I work for myself, or this could take years!

Bummer that I can't hear it next to a Boston. I think they have a couple high end Kawais there that are out of my budget, but it might be good for comparisons sake.

Unless the Petrof is some sort of wonder machine, I think I am going to go road trip to the Boston this weekend to listen to it. That shop has a few other pianos, so there will be something to compare it to, though nothing totally comparable.
C'est la vie.

One other question; my husband keeps saying 'once you get it home and aren't comparing it side by side with other pianos, won't anything that is decent be good enough?' Note: he learned on a very lovely Yamaha grand, so perhaps he is just spoiled and doesn't know how crap something can sound. But in fairness, does he have a point?

Oh, and while I am at it...I am hoping to play mostly pop and jazz, and the room I am putting this baby into has a 19' vaulted ceiling with little fabric or carpeting... Would that change your thinking at all?

Thank you all so much! I am in love with PianoWorld...you are all so helpful!

BTW, ChasT, what did you buy?

Please have the piano checked out by a qualified tech. No warranty on this deal so if it has a serious problem that surfaces a week later you are on the hook. If it passes muster, the price seems fair.

Thank you! I do plan on having a tech check it out. The guy who is selling it has a half a dozen pianos that (I think) he buys and sells as his side business, which he advertises on Craigs List, so I am very cautious about this whole thing! He was very cool about my asking if I could have a tech look at it, and even sent me a link to the local yellow pages (since it's so far away) as well as the PTG, which scored him some points in my book.

I am more worried that I will like it and we won't be able to come to agreement about payment. He wants half down, and I think it's nuts to give him cash until he is walking OUT of my front door with an empty dolly...right? Are any of the piano escrow services good? That's the scariest part to me.

Hi, LVP,

I bought a new Kawai UST-9. I really wanted a Charles R. Walter 1500, but wasn't ready to spend that much money. I bought the piano at a Kawai "liquidation sale" that was being hosted by the man who would be servicing it, regardless of what I bought.

I'm a little confused. (It's a common state for me.) The guy with the Boston is not a regular store; he someone who buys and sells on the side, right? If so, you'll have less leverage if there is a problem. If he does the delivery, it should be fairly easy to work out the payment. If someone else delivers, it could be a bigger problem. If your bank has a branch where he lives, maybe they could help figure out the payment.

Good luck.

Charles

Interesting...have you been happy with the Kawai? I don't think I will even see a Walter before I buy, though I was hoping I could.

The Boston is with the guy who does this on the side, so I will have no recourse at all if there are issues. But with so few pianos up here, what's a girl to do?

That is partly why I am going to check out the Petrof first tomorrow, which I could even possibly rent first to be sure it sounds good in our weird room. Plus the small shop is really highly regarded, which might be why they only have one thing in my range that isn't out for rent! I like the idea, let's see about the sound.

Unreal that there are only three stores in our state, and I think I have touched less than a dozen in my price range going to them all and using Craig's List. Too bad I don't adore light colored oak, I'd have way more options!

Thanks for listening! Knowing you found something in your 'black hole' gives me hope. Please tell me you didn't have to shop for six months!

LVP

Hi all!

Let me just thank you again for all your help! It's so nice to have the support of people who really know their stuff.

So, I went to go visit the used Petrof yesterday and made a day of it. I really enjoyed the sound, but NOT the history of the piano, which was kind of frightening. Its a 1993 which lived in an unconditinoed lake house, and the dealer said it's had a history of being really squirrelly and needed plenty of work to get to sound right/stay in tune. She also said that it would need a damp-chaser installed for sure, which they would do for free, which was great, but why risk it being a pain in the butt? While there she played some pianos that I had decided were too expensive previously, but now I am thinking that my shopping restrictions might make buying new, and spending a bit more, the smarter choice. The Kawai K3 (really a 30, right?) seemed like it would work fine, and might just be the solution, as the sound is fine and the price is bearable. Plus, it would have the perks of being new and coming in my color, etc.

I also realized that the Boston that I have been considering visiting this weekend is likely to disappoint, as it is a console...everytime I listen to a console I feel like the music is screaming 'get me OUT of this thing!!!' The Boston I fell in love with was a 126. I think the Boston marketing claims that they get bigger sound out of smaller pianos, but I haven't heard one in that size yet that really gets me jazzed (in other brands) Do you think I am on to something? It's hard to make a 9 hour trip this weekend when I think I know that it's going to sound a little small. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why can't I find a used 126?!

Other pianos that sounded good to me that are pricier included a Schulze Pollman, of which there is one new one in the state that I could have. I was told ordering can take 6 months, so the only option is the one on the sales floor (now we are tripling the original budget). I am curious if there is any real relationship between the pianos I am drawn to, or if I am just delirious. I keep joking that I will get it home, play for six months, are realize that all our jazz standards really wanted me to buy a Baldwin. Sigh...it's frustrating to be able to hear the difference in the pianos but not be able to play well yet!

So, should I give up on the little Boston? Or another road trip?

Thanks for taking time out of your day for my little adventure!

You are not alone.

Do you have any trips planned in the near future to largish cities with multiple piano stores in them? If not, can you arrange a weekend trip on a cheap airfare (if there is such a thing any more) to such a city? It's frustrating to shop in a piano-challenged location where you don't have much selection.

I am very very happy with my piano, but if I were doing the search all over again, I think this time I'd make a point of flying to NYC or some other piano mecca just so that I could be certain I had exhausted a full set of options.

Ooh, I lied, I have seen a smaller piano that sounded great: The Schulz Pollman was a 118 now that I check my notes, and it sounded great. It seemed to sound closer to the personality of the Boston 126, so I guess my guesstimation that the Boston 118 might disappoint might still be accurate.

Save me from myself before I quadruple my budget

lvp, I have been looking earnestly for a piano for going on 3 months, and that isn't very long, judging by the many piano searches I've read about in these forums. The best advice I've read here:

--Play as many pianos as you can, inside and outside your budget.
--Patience! (This is the hardest advice to follow.)
--Watch that budget! If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Play it, enjoy it, then move on to one you can afford.

I have certainly fallen in love with pianos I can't afford, but I play them for a reason: It is useful to know what sound and touch I like in the expensive pianos so I can listen for those qualities in pianos within my budget.

In spite of having several stores nearby, I will have to buy my piano out of town, because the brand I want is not carried locally. You are in good company. Happy travels!

ArpeggioPaola

p.s. You did not "lie." You just got new information.

Actually, I work half time in Washington DC, but was afraid to fall in love with something that was going to cost $1000 to ship to my house, so didn't venture into that water on my last few trips. You and I are clearly 'maximizers'- people who want to make sure they have seen it all. I know that the more I do that, the more annoying discerning I will become, and likely the longer I will have to wait for anything at all. I am trying to temper that urge to touch 'everything', but I will likely regret it later (at least a little). I will also likely get a 'lifer' and not a 'starter' which is fine by me. I only hedge because I really want a piano nooooowwwww (stamping feet and clenching fists....)

Funny side note...when I bought my last bike I made a point of test riding it in the factory location; Amsterdam. Like, in Europe. I live in New England...It's a great bike, and I am sure I got EXACTLY what I wanted. So, I should probably start spending some time looking at pianos in the capitol region Ahh...slippery slope, but probably very very good advice.

That is really helpful. I think that I could safely double my original budget, but that still leaves me far from my first choice...however, there are many that sound good that are closer to the new and improved budget, and while they don't sound the same, they sound really wonderful. It's the 'moving on' from the dream machine that I am stuck on. I suppose I should remember too that I can always upgrade in time. It has been really helpful to hear the better pianos. Its been an interesting experience of starting on one end of the spectrum, then moving to the other end emotionally, and now trying to find my way to the middle.

Sound advice, thank you!

Hi LVP,

Somehow, I missed this thread for a couple of days. I'm back. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to Boston. If you've truly given in to the urge to spend more (like most of us,) it greatly expands the possibilities.

Kawai makes good pianos. The K-3 is 48" and just might work for you. The UST-9 is 46" but sounds fine to me. I like Wm. Knabe pianos, too. The WKV-121 felt and sounded really good to me. I haven't seen the WKV-131, but it's 4" taller than the 121 and ought to be even better sounding. The Knabe has fans here. Charles Walter pianos are really nice, but they retail around $11K. For me, it would have to be used. Lots of folks here seem to like Hailuns, but I don't think they were granted visas to come to south Georgia. I haven't seen one yet. I need a road trip. Oh, and about Baldwins. I saw a small Baldwin grand 2 weeks ago that I really liked. The Baldwin verticals aren't expensive. They've had challenges the last 15 years. Ask the people here who know them are see what they think. That might be a good choice. But I don't know.

Anyway, listen to Arpeggio Paola. Try lots of pianos and don't rush things. There are plenty of nice pianos out there in your new improved price range. Yours will show up.

And about bicycles. I bought my last one (for a while) last year -- in Colorado. I had it built up for me and shipped to Georgia. A nice bike and a shopping trip to Colorado. Life is good.

Charles

Good perspective! These are wonderful 'problems' to have When you checked out the 118, did it sound 'bigger' to you than with other comparably sized studios you shopped?

thanks for checking back in!

LVP

I wasn't able to play them back to back, but I don't think the Boston UP-118 sounded as "big" as the Kawais. I do hope you're able to try the Knabes. I really liked them.

Charles

You've gotten very good advice, Ivp, and seem to have a nice taste in what you're looking at. Don't worry that your questions are tiresome--- we love piano-finding stories.

I used to know a guy who lived in a nice, big, two-story log house he built in the backwoods of Maine, up on the other side of Skowhegan. Wood stove, no running water, no electricity... but he had a piano. Durable thing, too--- the place wasn't exactly climate-controlled.

If he could find one and get it out there, I'll bet you can. At least you're looking in the season when the roads aren't snowed-in and it's daylight past four in the afternoon.

BTW, if you want to read some stories about craigslist pianos sold out of garages, check the Tuner/Technician forum. Maybe that one is ok, but you'd want to be pretty doggone sure.

A thousand bucks sounds steep for delivery, which is usually included as part of the purchase deal. If you're as far away as DC is from Maine or Vermont, I guess it might have to be transshipped by long-distance carrier and then delivered and set up by a local company. Are you not passing by Buffalo, Boston, and New York (and Connecticut) on your way to work? There are some great dealers closer than Virginia. Anyway, you might cut a better deal on the shipment.

Thank you Jeff! I have mixed feelings about buying from the 'garage'. It would be helpful to see warnings- would help me feel better about not going 'budget'.

I couldn't find posts you were likely thinking of...any hints on a good search word?

Oh, and I am in Northern VT, so anything I see in DC I would have to buy closer to help with delivery costs (Probably Boston or Albany if there wasn't a dealer here). Only Rick Jones seems to deliver for a nice price, but the grey market pianos scare me. We live in such a severe climate, and I don't have central air, so I am a little weird about taking any sort of risk. Maybe unwarranted, but still.

Thanks again!

Liza

It sounds like the person with the Boston is a regular seller on Craigslist. In the Worcester area.

Although the Boston area is a little dry (as in a piano semi desert) there are several dealers around still to contact. They might have something used. Have you tried calling them? From 3 in lower NH, to one west, and one south of Boston.

There is also an ad for a used Charles Walters for $4000. Looks like a console. Walters are well liked pianos on the forum. It doesn't say the age. Brocton Ma area. Stock pic.

Might be enough to come look at, stay overnight and hit several of the stores. It surely is a long way with 4.5 hours each way!

Ok, tomorrow I am going to a dealer in upstate NY, which is a hike, but they have new and used Charles Walters and S-P's which they are ready to part with for really nice prices. My husband is a SAINT for giving up yet another weekend day to this adventure!

It will be fun, but I don't think we will walk away with a piano (weird instinct, based on nothing) They do have a S-P in Mahogany Peacock though....too pretty to resist going to at least see! We'll see how it works out...have a great holiday, and send your piano fairies my way if you don't need them for the weekend!

I found a thread on the subject, for another person who posted. Turned out it was on this forum after all. But if you just browse through the back numbers, you can find out plenty.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...dealer%20f.html

A lot of people say the Search feature doesn't work so well anymore, so it's not really your fault if you can't find stuff here. A lot of times the conversation will take a turn that has nothing to do with the thread title.

It's not often I hear wives say they're married to a saintly person--- very often, they say the opposite (and they always include all the details). It's a good sign for your piano search. Maybe you'll find a piano nearly as nice as your husband.

Have you looked at Kawais and Yamahas? If you like them, there are some pretty good deals on new ones, and better deals on used ones. They do stand up well to a challenge, and there's something to be said for a full warranty. Or maybe you'll like one of the Walters, better than you think.

Oooh, thank you. Yeah, search does not work so well, but hey, with bazillions of posts, what do you expect? If you google your term + pianoworld they tend to come up better, but this one confounded me. Thanks!

My hubs is such a dearheart about the piano. He is really one of those people who thrives on seeing his family and friends fulfill their dreams...and he is no spendthrift! Honestly, he'd let me max out every credit card we had if it was what I wanted- I am the one really trying to keep this in check. It's funny, the salesman are always like 'do you need to talk to your husband? What does he think? Make sure you get him ready to understand what these things costs..." I just play along...I guess one of us has to look like we aren't ready to mortgage our souls! Between my piano lust and his generosity, this could get stupid really, really fast. Anyhow, he is totally fantastic, and I know I am really lucky but fear for our budget when we finally have kids! So many dreams, so few dollars....Let just hope that they don't need tuition for med school- cuz they'll get it and we'll end up living in the street in our old age He also grew up playing on a Yamaha C3, so he gets pianos, and probably would feel a tinge guilty roping me in too much when my budget started out at 10% of what his 'home' piano cost. Plus, he probably doesn't like the sound of the cheap ones either, after having such a sweet machine at his disposal all those years!

I do like the Kawai's and figured a new K3 would be my default choice. So far there have been a few high end things I loved, a lot of low end things I hated, and only really Kawai's in the middle. They sounded good, but were missing something I can't express. However, I liked them much more than the Yamahas, which sounded really strident to me. I like their crispness, but not the harsh/sharp sound. Too bad, on paper they looked like a perfect fit.

Thank you again for the thread link!

Liza

Hope you have good luck in NY, but if not, don't be too disheartened. I'm another one of those people who needed to play many many new and used uprights before I found the one that was "just right". My small budget doubled during a 5 month search but I love my barely used yet older Mason & Hamlin upright. Someone on Pianoworld "tuned me in" to it's availability by private message and I am forever grateful!

Posters in the Tuners/Tech forum were also very helpful in leading me to a reliable technician who lived nearby the private dealer I purchased from. The dealer was located about 180 miles from where I live and it sounds like you may end up in a similar situation.

Wishing you all the "piano fairies" the adventure requires!

I would not worry about those grey market warnings. I bought a 12 y.o. grey market Yamaha U1 about 3 years ago from Rick Jones. It is a gem. I had my tuner over yesterday after a 1 year lapse. He said it hardly needed tuning and had it been his own piano he would have waited til it was more noticeable. This is in MD, with dry winters and humid spring and summers.

No matter where a used piano comes from or the make, you have to get it check out by a competent technician.

Ok, we are home from far flung dealer #5, and I am really surprised by my experience. This is a wild ride! So, as we have established, I really loved a Boston 126, and found a 118 online used that I liked... However, every other piano of this size has disappointed, so have been avoiding visiting it and have been looking at bigger pianos closer to around here...(it would take another entire day to go check her out).

Today was mainly a chance to see a bunch of S-P side by side, they had one of each size uprights in many beautiful finishes (but no black, too bad!) I thought that they sounded beautiful, but wasn't bowled over. The weather has been wild and it seems like every piano is a little out of tune at every shop I go to, so that is also hard to 'sift through' musically. Anyhow, I was disappointed and ready to fiddle with the $50k Bechstein for kicks and go home. If I want a piano that sounds great but doesn't move me like the Boston, I'll buy a K-3, which I am sure would be a kick-ass machine once we got rolling and had it voiced. It's definitely all the piano we need....

So, this is what was going through my head--'buy a Kawai and make this pain stop. You can have a Boston in ten years. Get this over with!'

Then, something weird happened. We asked to hear the Charles Walter, as per PW guidance ("listen to everything!") I was sort of already discounting the Walters because they are so short (!) and that size piano never sounds right to me. So, the guy goes over and plays the same little Chopin piece that he's been playing all morning on everything else. Important background note: I don't like classical music. Chopin could be death metal- it just doesn't move me in the least.

So he starts to play this piece that I don't like, and I spontaneously burst into tears.

Ok, look, I know a lot of people are going to scream 'it's a SIGN! It's your piano!!!' but I am not that kind of girl! I don't cry! I don't know what this means, and mostly I am just embarrased standing here with this guy playing music that I don't like on a poorly tuned piano and I am crying. What is going on here? Am I just exhausted?

Truth is, I felt real affinity with the Walter. I don't know why, but it really struck a chord (please, don't say it--I know---really bad pun). Has anyone ever had such a visceral reaction? This was weird.

So at this point we decide that there is something good happening here. We ask the other owner to play stuff we like (Billy Joel, Elton John, etc) and AGAIN, I start sobbing. Note: I did not cry at my own wedding, graduation, or 30th birthday. What is this?

So, now I have found a piano I can just afford that makes me cry. Would you buy it? We LOVED everything about it from a practical/aesthetic standpoint, but I am kind of a Spock like character, so the crying freaked me out. The dealer made me a good offer, which I told him I had to sleep on, because I needed to do my cerebral thing so I could feel sane again. Here are the specs on the crier:

Walter W1500 Ebony Satin
#532167
$6650 total for piano and delivery. Out of state for tax purposes. Ahem.

It has been tuned twice since January this year, will be tuned before delivery.

Here are my questions:

I think the price is good- can someone check so I am sure?

How old is it?

Dealer says that because it's had these earlier tunings and been in the shop for awhile, it basically means that it has had time to get some of it's quirks worked out which wouldn't be the case in ordering a new one from Walter. How valid is that when Walter is insane about prepping these as they do?

Sadly, the satin finish is a little messed/scuffed up. The dealer says the satin gets marred quickly. True? Would a new one get 'broken in' too quickly to make it worth the extra expense? He says a new one is 6 weeks and another $600 or so away from this one.

Also, we want to play standards, rock, jazz and pop. The clarity/crispness isn't there on these pianos I am drawn to. Is that going to haunt me later? I like the sound, but worry that they won't support our taste in music. Help! Does that argue for the Kawai?

Finally, since I finally met a small piano I liked...should I go see that little Boston 118? I am afraid I know the answer to that Any better sense of if I am going to think it too puny?

I wish I could get the three of these in a room together for a final cut.

Thank you all SOOO much for all of your support and help! I can't wait to hear your thoughts. How could I have that reaction to a piano that isn't even in tune?? This has been crazy day. I hope you are all celebrating the holiday with your families and friends and having an awesome weekend!

L