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#1226223 - 07/02/09 02:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Stabby

Some questions on 7th chords. Do they always contain 4 notes? Also I saw the E7 chord in my book, but I don't get it at all. There's an E, G, A and D in this chord. However E-D is a major 6th? I also saw a 7th chord with 2 A's, but that's an octave instead of a minor/major 7th?


Hi Stabby and welcome! Levine's book is on my wish-list.

It may help you to know that the names of chords can be very confusing to the uninitiated. After a while, you get so used to them, you forget how confusing they are.

If someone says 'E7' what they mean is 'E dominant 7th' aka an E major chord with a flattened 7th. (It's all short-hand, and you've just got to know it, you can't guess). So the E major chord is E, G# and B. The D is the flattened 7th (that's not a 6th). It's the 7th that gives it it's egde, the tension in it.

A C7 would be C, E, G and Bb.

And yes, you may sometimes see it written 'E7' but not all the notes are actually there.

Is that enough, or would you like me to tell you about minor 7ths, major 7ths, and minor major 7ths too? wink

Edit: Sorry, made a mistake before. I've corrected it now. E major has an B in it, not a A. The heat here is boiling my brain.


Edited by ten left thumbs (07/02/09 04:41 PM)
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#1226231 - 07/02/09 03:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Posts: 3328
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Hey! I log off for 5 minutes and everyone's saying important things.

Jazzwee: copy that. I'm pretty bad at reading music too. Possibly not as bad as you. If we ever get together, we could have a competition! wink

Knotty: Lovely little piece. Now how do I get the music?

Tavares: Welcome! Never heard of diminished scales. Sounds juicy!
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#1226243 - 07/02/09 03:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
So the E major chord is E, G# and A.


Wow - this thread is hopping. I think there is a typo above. It should say "B" rather than "A" for that E major chord. grin
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#1226258 - 07/02/09 03:53 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Stabby Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

If someone says 'E7' what they mean is 'E dominant 7th' aka an E major chord with a flattened 7th. (It's all short-hand, and you've just got to know it, you can't guess). So the E major chord is E, G# and A. The D is the flattened 7th (that's not a 6th). It's the 7th that gives it it's egde, the tension in it.


Yes, I get that but there no G# in the book.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2w6xg6e.jpg

And I still don't get the A7. It has two A's which doesn't make it a 7th but an octave?

Also, what's the best way to understand this? Right now I count the keys between two notes and that's how I find out the interval. For example 3 keys in between is a major third; an octave minus 1 key is a major 7th, and an octave minus 2 keys a minor 7th. It works for now, but I don't feel it's the best way to do it for me. I do the same thing for chords by the way: in a minor chord you press the first key, leave 2 keys open, press the next key, leave 3 open, press the next. For a major it's the other way around (first 3 empty, then 2). Everyone probably has their own way, but there really should a better way for me.

Quote:

Is that enough, or would you like me to tell you about minor 7ths, major 7ths, and minor major 7ths too? wink


Thanks, but that's well explained in the book smile


Edited by Stabby (07/02/09 03:58 PM)

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#1226260 - 07/02/09 03:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Stabby,

your example has E-7
E minor 7, so the G is not #, but natural.

Your A7 has A in the bass, which is good, and then a G, which is the 7th.
The top A is the melody note, you gotta play that!

Don't worry about counting intervals. After practicing for a short while, you'll get these basic chords down.

It's really essential to know the 4 basic chords
Maj7
Dom7
min7
half dim 7

Very well in all keys. Make this part of your daily technical exercises.
Also all 12 major scales. You must know those inside out. Practice them daily. When you're bored, find a new exercise that makes you practice them more.

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#1226262 - 07/02/09 04:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Stabby -- The book is showing an E minor 7, not E7 (which is a dominant 7). The reason being, E has a - sign after the letter. E- means E minor 7. The right hand is voiced G, D, A. The G is the flatted 3rd, the D is the flatted 7th, and the A is the 4th. The 4th is commonly used in minor 7ths.

You have a good start in recognizing intervals, but, you need to eventually be able to picture the keyboard and just "SEE" a major third, minor third -- or whatever the interval. You will see it as a puzzle piece fitting together. You can tackle it one interval at a time. Try to spot a minor 3rd starting on any note (First you will be counting those 3 half steps)

Barb

Hey Knotty -- we crossed posts!


Edited by Swingin' Barb (07/02/09 04:05 PM)
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#1226263 - 07/02/09 04:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
Stabby Offline
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Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 84
Thanks knotty, I get it know!

What are some good ways to practice the 12 major scale? Improvising would be the most fun, but I should know which chords fit with each scale. Any idea where to find that information?

edit: thanks, swingin' barb. I just got here and I'm already learning a lot!


Edited by Stabby (07/02/09 04:06 PM)

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#1226271 - 07/02/09 04:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
knotty Offline
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Stabby,

normally, you don't find which chords fits with which scale, but you do the opposite.
Which scale fits with which chord.

That can be debated, but for the purpose of learning scales, here are a couple of ideas:

- play the scales up and down, 2-3 octaves. You have to be very comfortable playing those scales in the simplest way. Play them slow at first. You do not have to make this into a speed exercise.

- You could practice playing 2-5-1 in each key with the Left Hand, while playing a simple up and down scale with the right. 2 5 1's are explained in Levine. Your example shows 2-5 in 3 keys going down one step each time. That's a good way to practice it.
So for example
C-7 | F7 | Bb-7 | Eb7 | Ab-7 | Db7 etc...
While playing the right hand
Bb maj scale | AbMaj scale | Gbmaj Scale etc...

Simple shell voicings as explained in chapter 3 are best because for the left hand, you must master the Root 3rd and 7th with various inversion. What the book says is good here.

You can also improvise with a flow of continuous 8th notes, staying with the major scale.

All these will get your fingers and ear to get comfortable with the sounds of those scales over these essential chord progression.

There are millions of ways to practice your scales, Levine offers some ways, but you can make up your own.

Doing something difficult with the LH while scales with the RH is a very good way to internalize those scales.

Playing 2 against 3, meaning 8th notes in one hand and triplets in the other hand, is also a great way to internalize the scale.

Keep the scales fun.

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#1226277 - 07/02/09 04:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Stabby I see you are really getting this, but can I just address this one question:

"And I still don't get the A7. It has two A's which doesn't make it a 7th but an octave?"

Whatever your chord is (for an A7, that's A, C#, E and G) you can put those notes anywhere, and as many times as you want, on the piano, and it's still an A7. You can put 1 note in the LH and 3 in the RH, or 2 in the LH and 3 in the RH, or 3 in the LH and 1 in the RH, or you can use your big toe to put an extra A way down at the bottom - it's still an A7. You can put the C# above the E, or the other way round. It's still an A7.
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#1226284 - 07/02/09 05:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
Stabby Offline
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Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 84
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

Whatever your chord is (for an A7, that's A, C#, E and G) you can put those notes anywhere, and as many times as you want, on the piano, and it's still an A7. You can put 1 note in the LH and 3 in the RH, or 2 in the LH and 3 in the RH, or 3 in the LH and 1 in the RH, or you can use your big toe to put an extra A way down at the bottom - it's still an A7. You can put the C# above the E, or the other way round. It's still an A7.


Thanks, but I already knew that! I just didn't get why there's two same notes in a chord. Apparantly one of the A's is not part of the chord but part of the melody.

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#1226351 - 07/02/09 07:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: Stabby]
jazzwee Offline
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Stabby I didn't look at your notation until just now, so looks like everyone got it all figured out.

Just a note on Levine's book. It's great for reference but it's not in a specific order that's necessarily good for beginner. The better beginner book is Metaphors for the Musician - Randy Halberstadt. It goes in a more logical order. And is pretty close to what we present in this thread. BTW - this thread pretty much follows the flow of how I was taught.

For example, in Levine's book, you are faced with "So What"/"Maiden Voyage" Voicings so early in the book. Heck, that would take years to master those tunes. They are not exactly level 101. It can be done but you'd have to switch back and forth in the book and skip advanced topics.

Also there's no rhythmic discussion whatsoever, it is heavily focused on "voicings". Technique related to Rhythm and Swing in particular is the most difficult aspect of Jazz IMO (as TLT and even Swinging Barb can attest).
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#1226367 - 07/02/09 08:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
Swingin' Barb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 889
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Technique related to Rhythm and Swing in particular is the most difficult aspect of Jazz.


Jazzwee - Yes, I agree 200 percent. I am still working on trying to live up to my screen name wink
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#1226595 - 07/03/09 11:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
KHZ Offline
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Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Amsterdam
A friend of mine showed me how he replaced a dominant 7 chord with its altered chord to have a cool jazz sound (and then using a tritone substitution). At the time I understood his explanation, but I can't seem to reproduce it now lol.

Anyone here who can tell me a bit more about altered chords and how and when to use them? Or when I can find some more info on this?

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#1226613 - 07/03/09 12:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: KHZ]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
KHZ, welcome to our thread.

As a simple explanation, if you take a regular rootless voicing of a Dominant 7 chord and move it up or down a Tritone interval, you have in effect played an Alt Chord.

So this is the way to implement this without having to worry about actually figuring out the extensions. A rootless voicing for a dominant will include 3,9,13,b7.

Alt chords can be used to replace a dominant 7 during soloing because the root played by the bass player will not be in conflict. However, it is not usually used without some planning when playing the head (melody) since you have to worry about conflicts with the melody notes.

Alt Chords are often used too when doing a series of chromatic chord movements since the extensions provide excellent voice leading. For example, if your progression is Ab7-G7 (downward), it will sound good as Ab7-G7Alt since there will be common tones with Ab7 (which is the same as Ab7-Db7 but using an inversion with little movement).
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#1226615 - 07/03/09 12:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Can one attach an image without it being a link to a webpage?

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#1226620 - 07/03/09 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Yes. Use [img]link[/img]

but it has to be stored somewhere else like Boxnet.

Boy, this thread is hopping all of a sudden
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#1226631 - 07/03/09 12:59 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
testing:



If this shows, then KHZ, you can see the same progression going twice. The first one is your typical way to voice the F7

The second, the F7 is altered.

if you play F in the bass, that is an altered chord with a b9 and b13

If you play B in the bass, that F7alt becomes a B7 with just a 9 in it. You bass would do C - B - Bb
going chromatically. That's the idea behind tritone substitution.

That F7alt is pretty dense and tense, so like jazzwee says, keep in mind when soloing.

You could remove the b9 and make it more open.
You could also play the F7 like A Eb Ab using a #9. That's a cool tense open sound.




Edited by knotty (07/03/09 01:06 PM)

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#1226639 - 07/03/09 01:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
KHZ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Amsterdam
jazzwee, knotty - Thanks for the explanation smile. That makes it a lot clearer again for me.

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#1226640 - 07/03/09 01:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)


this inversion shows F7 with voices moving in opposite direction. Close voicing followed by open.
F7 also tense with a #9 in it.

nice way to provide some tension and resolve the Bb chord.

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#1226655 - 07/03/09 01:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Great explanations Knotty.

Now one more thing. An Alt chord is officially a Dominant 7 with the following additional tones: b9, #9, #5. But in actual playing, often only one of these tension notes is essential to the Alt sound and usually that's #9 and #5. So I typically voice an Alt with just 3 notes. Often just 3, b7 and #9 or #5.
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#1227477 - 07/05/09 06:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Loc: Scotland
I hope no-one minds if I just restate what I'm working on here:

Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

1. Integrating pickup notes into the improvisation. Also repeated quavers at the end of phrases.

2. Playing with the 'nome set to beats 2 and 4.

3. Syncopating those 3 notes.

4. Getting comfy with 1/5/7, 1/3/7 and 1/3.

5. Arpeggiating.


Arpeggiating with the RH, that is. wink

The 1/5/7, 1/3/7 feels good now. The business with the metronome works when I get into it, but getting into it can take a while. I can sit for a good minute going 'one TWO three FOUR, no, one two THREE four, no, ONE, ONE, er, dammit, TWO three four ONE. Then once I've got it, I don't want to stop, because it took such an effort to get there! Anyone remember those Magic Eye pictures? It's a bit like that. You don't get it/you get it.

What I've also done is copied (and transposed) the first couple of pages of Knotty's last youtube contribution, and started playing that. Then it all gets terribly confused because I don't know what is tune, what is improvisation, what is how I used to play it, what is on the page, and what deviates from the page (once, but no longer, known as a 'mistake').

Whenever any of this actually comprises four beats in a bar, I'll record.
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#1227583 - 07/06/09 12:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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TLT - Feel for you on beats 2 & 4. Wait till you do Jazz waltzes someday! With a 4 over 3 feel, it was very difficult to absorb smile
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#1227587 - 07/06/09 12:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Jazz, Swing and Time

I just wanted to speak specifically about having good time and what it has to do with Jazz.

Back when I started with my current teacher, he pointed to the pictures of the various masters like Miles Davis, Coltrane, Bill Evans, Thelonius Monk, etc. and asked me, what do they have in common? I didn't know. And he answered that they all have PERFECT TIME.

Reaching the next level in Jazz playing is really mostly about good time. Swing is about good time. Good soloing is about good time. Having good time actually gives you ideas about how to phrase lines.

So, it is really important to focus on this. It doesn't matter how simple the solo is. It doesn't matter if you stick to 4 chord tones per chord on the solo (Coltrane had a Blues tune where he just did this). It comes out as authentic jazz when you have flawless time.

Swing is about positioning notes relative to the beat. Some play on top of the beat and swing hard. Some lay back and swing lightly but it still sounds swinging. Swing loses the effect when the time is inconsistent. As I've said here many times, swing is really about ACCENTS. But that only works if time is precise.

So if you want to develop in Jazz (and heck any sort of piano playing), develop your ears to listen for any inaccuracy in time. If you record yourself, listen when you do a line and notice the time is not 100% perfect. And practice that line until it is perfect.

I do this to myself constantly. Every time I listen to myself play, I become keenly aware if I go out of time. Awareness is step one to cure of rhythm problems. It has helped tremedously as I hear improvement each time. But it's a long process. Those without perfect time are doomed not to make it big (or ever sound authentic).

I would say that time is 80% of the battle in learning jazz. No wonder we spend so much time on swing in this thread.

One more thing. When improvising, break up your lines into small chunks most of the time. There's a reason for this other than the usual "breathing" that everyone refers to. It's because during the moments of silence, you can reattach your brain to the hi hat and reestablish time.

Although you cannot play anything with this advice I just gave here, I believe it is the most important lesson my teacher has ever given me. And his time is just out of this world (which consequently explains his world class pianist status).
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#1227616 - 07/06/09 04:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Will bear this in mind. Could you tell me what this means, please?

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Some play on top of the beat and swing hard. Some lay back and swing lightly but it still sounds swinging.


I don't know what you mean by 'swing hard', 'swing lightly', and 'play on top of the beat'.














[/quote]
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#1227673 - 07/06/09 10:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzwee Offline
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Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Good Terminology question TLT.

First of all the 'beat' is the exact pulse for each note regardless of subdivision.

On Top of the Beat - matching the pulse exactly
Behind the Beat - playing a few milliseconds slower than the pulse.
Pushing the Beat - playing a few milliseconds faster than the pulse.

These terms are relative to the person in charge of defining this pulse (the drummer typically).

A person can still have 'good time' but be playing consistently at some relative time away from the beat as defined above. That is a stylistic choice.

As a general rule, beginners should shoot to play BEHIND the beat (another term is to DRAG the line).

PUSHING is typical newbie behavior and is discouraged.

But an expert can use these to control "Tension" and "Release" as it controls the mood of the tune.
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#1227676 - 07/06/09 10:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
In terms of Swing terminology - 'Swing Hard' is close to Triplet Feel (the extreme end of hard which is a ratio of 2:1 for each pair of eights). The opposite direction is to play 'Straight' (even eighths - 1:1 ).

As I've been saying over and over in this thread, the choice to play somewhere near triplet feel to straight eighths is a stylistic choice but it is the accents that really describe the jazz sound. This takes a while to absorb. Sometimes the accents are subtle (like Jarrett's).

As it relates to 'Good Time', a player may choose to play with a Triplet feel or not. But consistency is required for that "feel" to be felt by the listener. If you can't maintain the triplet feel for a consistent amount of time, it sounds bad.

So, acting as a teacher here, I would generally pay more attention to the accuracy of the time than the actual notes played.


Edited by jazzwee (07/06/09 10:22 AM)
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#1227703 - 07/06/09 11:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jazzwee,

so is this what you're trying to say. Bar 1 would be extreme hard swing, and bar 2 would be no swing at all.

And anything in between...






Edited by knotty (07/06/09 01:22 PM)

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#1227727 - 07/06/09 01:17 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Knotty, those images are not appearing.

Well, I never said 'no swing' though because accents define swing. You could accent offbeats with straight eighths and drag the beat and still have a swing feel (Chick Corea).

But definitely straight eights with accents on beat 1 and played on top of the beat has no swing feel (that's classical).

I'm just saying that whatever you are doing (and it's a wide range of choices), do it with good time.

BTW - in the Jazz idiom, even ballads are played with good time, and typically rubato is uncommon.
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#1227731 - 07/06/09 01:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
oh no, I can't see my images either ...

Were you ever able to see them?

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#1227742 - 07/06/09 01:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc. [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
No they were never visible. I thought they were in the works...

Sample



[img]put http link here [/img]


Edited by jazzwee (07/06/09 01:47 PM)
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