I suspect there will be very few customers indeed upgrading from a 61 key Casio directly to Roland's V-Piano!

And they will... soon! The Pro version is coming!

It would be a quantum leap forward, would it not? I'll just pretend I still have the 1927 Knabe grand from 1 month ago.

Sounds like you're describing the uncanny valley effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

i am starting to be a running joke at the guitar center near my office. i've been in their 5 times to play the v-piano. as an aside, business must suck in the music world right now because there's hardly anybody in the place.... ever. anyway, the more i play it, the more i love it. there is so much depth to the tones. i can no longer play my sample pianos on my computer. they sound and play like crap. the pianoteq demo isn't much better either. sorry, i know that is heresy. my analogy is that the samples and the pianoteq "lite" are two dimensional, whereas the v-piano is very 3 dimensional- you swim in its tones. and i've spent a lot of time moving between the 4 pianos, changing rooms, hammer hardness- the tweaks are noticeable, they change the character of the piano, but no matter what i do to it- i really like what i hear.....this pro version of pianoteq interests me, i hope they bring it out soon and get some demos to listen to. but for now, I have been ruined. it has brought me closer to my steinway, however. we are friends again. i appreciate the overtones and its resonance. but i like the rolands touch MUCH, MUCH better. so i will wait it out and hold off on my recording ambitions. but i will never download a sample piano again. i don't care if they sample some 9 foot bos at 40,000 velocity levels per note and it takes 2 days to download the 2 terrabyte program. i'm done with em.

fat and flat, when you play the V-piano at the Guitar Center, are you listening through headphones or speakers. If the latter, what is the setup? Do you happen to know if Roland recommends a speaker set that is ideally matched to the V-piano?

oldfingers, i've played it both ways. the GC had it set up on a pair of KRK studio monitors, elevated to player height:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/KRK-VXT-6-Powered-Studio-Monitor-104404769-i1175386.gc

they were good speakers, somewhat better than the yamaha monitors i already have. i brought my own AKG K240 headset in with me to use, and it sounded just great through those.

In the Roland videos, i believe they are using the high end Roland KC-880, which GC sells for a cool grand a pop. (hey whats another 2K if you can drop 6K on a board!)... it also shows up under accessories for it on their website:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=978&ParentId=87

i imagine we could start a whole new thread over how important the right keyboard amp is to use!

Cromas, your comment on "uncanny valley" effect reminds me of "the fly" when geena davis spits out the reconstitued piece of beef after ex-hubby jeff goldblum runs it though the transporter. looks perfect but something is synthetic.

now on the v-piano, i didn't feel that way about it. i read on another site that somebody felt the bass was too bold. maybe, but for me- the "tell" is in the midrange. i haven't played one sample or modelled piano that sounded realistic to me in the middle registers. the upper usually sounds pretty good on most all of them, the lower tends to vary. but the middle seems to be the hardest area- very prone to buzziness and lack of definition. i did not get that sense at all with the v-piano. it could be- at least for me- that i have learned that i like brighter, more metallic sounding pianos that i thought i ever would. i have always drifted towards mellow, but i am sensing better depth and resonance with the v-pianos brighter sound. hey, don't listen to me, i have become brainwashed. go try one and be the judge!

Yes, exactly. Aka the "Polar Express" effect (the movie with the characters that looked eerily like animated corpses). That's why Pixar cleverly prefers to use more stylized humans in their movies. Something less realistic can seem more realistic than something else that is a strange blend of the realistic and the unrealistic...

Last week I've had the opportunity to check out the V-Piano in Cologne. That's right, eight time zones away. So no expenses were spared on my part to have a look at this thing.

First of all, how much power does the V-Piano draw exactly? Because I went to the store twice, and on both occasions the unit was turned off when I arrived! There was a netbook on top (also off), so no spiffy PC interface for me. Typical German store. Their setup used headphones -- well, the showroom is real cramped, so that's the only viable option. And just for judging the piano tone, I'd say headphones are better than any speakers (that I've encountered).

I did a double take, because the VP was pretty dusty and the display had fingerprints all over it -- obviously a lot of people thought the V-Piano featured a touch screen, not an unreasonable assumption given the price. It was probably just neglect by the store, or maybe the V-Piano is a bit of a dust magnet? Perhaps their device had been to a trade show? All the other DP's in the room looked relatively pristine. Not Roland's fault, but I had hoped to be dazzled by the new-and-shininess of the VP.

I had expected having to stand in line for trying out the V-Piano -- with the V-Piano, the AvantGrand, and Pianoteq 3 having been reviewed in this month's "Tastenwelt" magazine --, but curiously nobody in the store seemed to care about it, or even notice it. So I sat down and had it turned on by the salesman. The keys are nicely weighted, and the moisture-absorbing finish is definitely a good idea, although it looks a bit porous and dull, not exactly glamorous. What I had not expected is that the keys have a very shallow feel to them, they don't seem to travel that far and there's a hint of the Roland-typical hard bottom, which probably increased that perception.

I tried changing the presets which that iPod-like wheel, but I'm not sure if that worked. Do you just rotate it, or do you have to press another button to activate the preset? Because I couldn't tell any difference between e.g. silver wire and steel. And the user interface generally did not feel very helpful. It didn't look like the kind of interface that you can figure out just by playing with the dials and buttons.

The tone is brighter than Pianoteq for sure, but it definitely lacks a certain something. So in that way it very much sounded like the demos I'd already heard. A bit metallic, a bit cold, slightly soulless. Somehow the sound doesn't draw you in as irresistibly as a first-rate acoustic.

So all in all, this was not the orgasmic I-have-to-have-it experience others have described. Maybe the next version could be designed by Jonathan Ive and get a better user interface with a touch screen and a prettier arrangement of buttons, with a case that looks less Wurly-like and a little more futuristic, with a glossier key finish, and a bit more sparkle in the sound.

"Tastenwelt" magazine came with a CD, and they had audio samples of the V-Piano among others. First the detuned "Wild West barroom piano" that everyone finds so cute, then the typical pop/jazz noodling, finally the token fiery little classical piece (by Chopin). Let's just say a performance of Chopin has rarely done so little for me, and I certainly don't blame Chopin in this case...

While a certainly agree with your comment, if one is thinking about the digital/acoustic comparison, then the only "fair" test is to evaluate it over speakers. The thing I like about my acoustic is the way it fills my acoustic space. The question is, would I give up some of that with a digital? But this then raises the question of which speakers and then the discussion gets out of control. I can't seem to get my head around this problem. One thing I like about the Avant Grand is that it comes with the headphone and speaker option, and the speaker option is fixed so I would know what I would be getting when I put it into my music room. It seems that for me at least, the fewer options I have, the better I like it. Weird, huh?

Not to be a whiner but I can't help wondering why the DP makers are so darned stingy with the size of the LCD displays. You'd use it alot on the v-piano. This is a $5000 DP and the display is about the same size as my $49 cell phone. It looks to be a cool maching but considering bang for the buck I'd give Pianoteq a go first.

I wonder how V-Piano would sound with two monitors (not the four that Roland recommends), with the internal reverb disabled, and making use of a good external reverb, for example the VSS3 running on Powercore Express?

The problem, at least for me, is that I can never try such a thing out in the store. My DAW is not portable!

I have no interest in running with four monitors.

I did think that the V-Piano sounded better in the latest video from Roland (Myron McKinley ). I wonder what processing and post production they used?

Lawrence

Does anyone know more about the Pro version of the V-Piano? When is it coming out, and what are the new features?

Is it possible to get some of the V-piano sounds in the Roland Fantom G-8 workstation?

I need a DAW, for recording, but would also like to have a bunch of great, modifiable/tweetable piano sounds in the unit without having to spend almost 10K for two keyboards.

Melodialworks... i can't for the life of me figure out why anybody would need 4 $1000 keyboard amps for a piano. unless you were playing in a stadium with a fully amplified metal band. i think that is just roland marketing glitz. as i mentioned in an early post, the 2 studio monitors set up at GC worked perfectly well, particularly for solo work. for smaller combo, i think it would sound great running through one decent quality keyboard amp, because the stereo aspects wouldn't really be necessary. I too, thought the McKinley video sounded fine.....

DavidK... i would imagine since the v-piano is modeled and not sampled, it won't be available on any other boards for quite awhile. also, the Pro version you are alluding to is probably the Pianoteq Pro version, not Roland. I would suggest keeping an eye on the pianoteq website, www.pianoteq.com ; as a means of keeping up with its launch. their user forum is excellent.

I think to truly "fill space" with a digital piano, you need a wooden soundboard. No arrangement of speakers can replicate this on their own. Kawai has the right idea with their CA series. (I've tried a Kawai at the same store, but unfortunately the piano tone was so bad it was hilarious. Probably one of their less expensive models...)

You can turn a DP up to be real loud (just like a TV set I suppose), but as long as that big wood membrane is not there to filter the sound and radiate it into the room, it's still going to sound like speakers. Therefore headphones seem to be the preferred option, although good speakers can probably be set up in a way to deliver good stereo sound to at least a single location (the player).



Yes, they should have given it a 17" touch screen and used the GUI as in the PC interface. This barely intelligible monochrome joke of a display it put to shame by every iPod and iPhone out there!

Martin, i am considering downloading the Truepianos demo for a test run. you advertise using it. what do you think of its strengths and weaknesses relative to a lot of the other stuff on the market. i rememeber thinking about it a couple years ago and then moving on to samples instead. now, i am back to looking at it as i've given up on samples.... i like the demos i hear on their site, although they all sound somewhat thin and distant- now that may just be the way they were recorded. the idea of a sampled sound being modelled sort of makes intuitive sense to me. i imagine your experience has been....good?

FWIW I've tried the demo version of TruePianos and I think it sounds excellent. I also have Pianoteq, and it's nice to hear all the extra detail in the sound from TruePianos. The main thing lacking in the demo instrument (Diamond, from memory) is that soft notes don't have a soft enough timbre for my taste - Pianoteq is more expressive. Didn't notice any "distant" character in TruePianos, in fact it has a lovely wide stereo image which to me makes it sound very close, and that's something I seek.

Greg.

Well, the demos on the Truepianos site are pretty terrible. With these software pianos, you really have to play them yourself to see if you like them or not. Based on the demos alone, I would not have purchased Truepianos I think. It was only after trying the demo version that I started appreciating it.

I think their Diamond module captures the sound of a concert piano quite well. (I'm not saying "Steinway", because the Steinways I've listened to first hand had a very metallic, grating sound. Maybe that's helpful if you have to compete with an orchestra, but not so good for solo work.) The other modules are more for Jazz/Pop mixes, etc. But at least the four modules really have a distinct sound to them.

And whenever I think Truepianos sounds fake, I simply fire up the Pianoteq 3 demo and I'm instantly cured.

that is good to hear, Martin. i will load it and then go over to the thread that discusses proper recording techniques!....

So, Martin, the real question... are you truly satisfied with what you are using? or is it just basically the best of a bad lot.... i would have to say that ultimately i would like to bet on Pianoteq as the winner. i really like the vpiano from my sit-downs with it, but as i first said that may be my fingers talking cuz it was great fun to play. My wallet is screaming at me to stay away from that jezebel....and I am also scared to death that their support for an owner will be completely non-existent... but i am really intrigued with the "process" that seems to be pianoteq. the guy who runs it is amazing- people start a thread and complain about something and he's on there in a day with a fix. that is pretty damn unbelievable for software people. if you listen to a couple of the demos now available with the new "rock add-on", there are some really nice sounding recordings there. i call it a process because it seems to be that you subscribe to it, and then go along for the ride. nothing constant but evolution and change. I hope they ukltimately get it right, because the people running it really seem to have their act together...

I talked to Roland Support today, and their tech said Roland uses just one set of powered monitors in their V-Piano demo room.

However, he said you can add another set of monitors, and use the "Ambiance" control to increase the depth/width of the piano's sound stage.

He said in a fixed situation a high-quality set of near-field monitors, at ear height, 1-3 meters away, works best. While the Roland KC 880 stereo keyboard amplifier (or two) works great in a live setting, it is not the best in a home/studio setting since it is usually placed on the floor.

I've heard great things about the French Focal Twin6 Be (street price: around $1,600 each) powered near/mid field monitors and its smaller sibling, the Focal Solo6 Be (street price: $1,200 each) speakers. While this sounds like a lot of money for keyboard speakers, they can also be used in a home/project studio for tracking, mixdowns, etc. The compact speakers have a true 40HZ to 40kHz (!!!) frequency response, so they should be able to reproduce all of claimed the aural nuances of the V-Piano very nicely.

I think in general neither Pianoteq nor Truepianos nor the V-Piano are quite there yet in terms of the sound. But I don't want to use a PC with a multi-GB sampled piano, because then I'd have the fan noise from the PC. (Not to mention that the whole concept of having to boot your piano before playing is a bit silly in itself.) The playability of either PT or TP vs samples makes it worth it I think and makes it easier to overlook some defects in the sound, which exist of course.

The whole concept of an entirely modeled piano is intriguing (although it appears Roland cheated a bit there in the case of their V-Piano). PT/V-Piano look like they will be the future eventually. Physical modeling is almost there, so hopefully it's not "almost there" the way clean energy from nuclear fusion has supposedly been almost there for decades. I.e., some technologies seem to take a long time to bridge that final gap between "it almost works" to "it works." Perhaps physical piano modeling needs a few more years to mature.

Both PT and TP are supposed to get major updates later this year, so then it will be interesting to see who can claim the bigger improvements.

I must say that one of the things that turned me off of PT (apart from the sound itself) was their crippled demo. You play a piece, and then suddenly you hit one of the dead black keys! This open display of mistrust is not a good way to make your potential customers purchase your products. Maybe that is something the 'amazing Pianoteq forum guy' should consider fixing...

What does this mean?

Martin, I do like the fact that Pianoteq doesn't put an expiration on the demo. it gives you a chance to spend a month or more playing with it. sometimes when you walk away from these programs for a couple weeks it helps clear you head when you use them again. your point about booting up a PC to play the piano is on the money. i hate doing it. my dell starts to sound like a steel mill after a while, i can almost hear trolls inside singing work songs. i think that is why i am enamored with v-piano, i really liked turning it on with one button, giving it a second to load up (yes, you have to do that) and then playing unecumbered by countless umbilical cords. which is an exaggeration, because you still got to run speakers. but i still like the concept of integrated software and hardware, (although i am very appreciative of the problems that brings on when something breaks down). it may be all in my mind, but i think even the slightest bit of latency is noticeable in the brain, ear, and finger connectivity of a player. the samples all seem to be all plagued to some degree with it. i guess not with pianoteq, and i definitely didn't notice any with the vpiano.

It means you've never read the first post of this thread.

Sorry, couldn't resist the "Ghostbusters" reference.

AFAIK, the PT demo is limited to 30 days, the TP demo to 40 days. So "a month or more" wouldn't work for PT. But like I said, I'd rather have a 14-day demo version of PT if at least all keys were playable. Their current demo is a joke.

One thing I love in PT (vs TP) is the recording feature. I hope they integrate something similar in Truepianos! Because Audacity always crashes when you try to run it at the same time as TP, so I haven't been able to record anything from TP. That's a big oversight!

Latency with sample libraries might be an issue if they have to be streamed from the hard drive (e.g., the 21-layer Ivory). Truepianos uses samples, but I think they all fit in memory, so it should not be a cause of latency. If everything is set up correct with TP or PT, latency should be so low that the responsiveness is similar to a real grand -- even if it's hard to believe, given how many steps it takes to create the sound.

Excuse me? Actually I HAVE read the first comment, and the entire thread, in actual fact. Please don't attempt to speak for me, and suggest what I have or have not done.

I would like the comment explained, other than what was presented in the first post of this thread. I'm seeking some validation of the OPINION that was expressed, and am not quick to accept it, and quote it, as fact.

Lawrence

I think you refer to v2 which was limited to 45 days back then.

I think the way the PianoTeq demo works is very fair. If no black keys were disabled, noone would buy the retail version... afaik it has no time limit like 30 days apart from the forced restart every 20 mins.

i loaded up the truepianos demo, i can see where it could be really useful for live playing. but i think it would be very weak to record off. and man, the octave that starts one full octave above middle C- what is going on there? it sounds really distorted to me. all i have for demo is the diamond module. has anyone else noticed that?