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#1198084 - 05/12/09 05:45 PM Steingraeber 170
Basil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
I happened to notice that Steingraeber has brought out a 170cm
baby grand:

Steingraeber Grands

in addition to their 168cm model.

Anyone seen one? Would assume is intended as a replacement for the 168 (described as its predecessor) but the 168 is still listed. Any discernable improvements?

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#1198112 - 05/12/09 06:33 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Basil]
Norbert Online   content
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Loc: Surrey, B.C.
I'll be in factory in a few weeks and will let you know when back.

Steingraebers are always a total joy to admire and play for anyone...

Norbert thumb
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#1198230 - 05/12/09 11:39 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Norbert]
Gary at Encore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 250
Loc: Dallas, TX
There is no difference. Brian Gotchell, the importer, tells me that they are one and the same piano. The piano is really 170cm with the lid overhang, so Udo Steingraeber has decided to change the model number to A170. However, the A170 can now be bought with the Phoenix system and also the new carbon fibre soundboard, if one wants the most amazing new technology. One of these with the Phoenix system arrived at our store today. Come on by and play it. Man, we are excited. yippie
_________________________
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#1198649 - 05/13/09 05:19 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Gary at Encore]
Rich D. Online   content
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Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1218
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
So by adding the new 212 is Steingraeber also discontinuing the 205?

Rich
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Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

"Life is like a piano....what you get out of it depends on how you play it"
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#1198752 - 05/13/09 09:06 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Rich D.]
gutenberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
Oboy, maybe the 168, without Phoenix etc., will now be on close-out sale. No, probably not. The 168 I once played was more than the equal (balance, color, action) of any under 6' 4" piano I have played.

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#1198804 - 05/13/09 10:20 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Gary at Encore]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Quote:
The piano is really 170cm with the lid overhang, so Udo Steingraeber has decided to change the model number to A170.


I would like to hope there is a bit more than merely re-measuring and renaming the 168 as this would simply be a marketing ploy in the hope people will think one inch makes all the difference.

If so we should all perhaps purchase one of thos very afordable laser measuring devices, carefully check the lenght of our grand and see if we cannot win an inch or a fraction of an inch.

schwammerl.

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#1198893 - 05/14/09 02:03 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: schwammerl]
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
Carbon fibre soundboard???? Does it sound like a piano? After this invention it will only be the voicing that differs pianos from their brothers and sisters of the same family.

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#1198906 - 05/14/09 03:01 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Jan-Erik]
mjs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: München, Germany
Current Steingraeber models:
E-272
D-232
C-212 (replacing the 205)
A-170 (rebranded 168 - as far as I understood, the piano had grown a bit over the years and they never adapted the model name)

All pianos optionally with Phoenix system, the 170 optionally with carbon fibre sound board. Standard model is still (and will remain) conventional bridge pins and a spruce sound board. Apparently, the carbon fibre sound board sounds rather good - somewhat different from a spruce one, but still like a piano. Mostly recommended for environments with extreme humidity swings. Just like the Phoenix system, the carbon fibre sound board goes back to Richard Dain of Hurstwood Farm in Kent.

Markus
_________________________
Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord

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#1199004 - 05/14/09 09:35 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: mjs]
Wilhelm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 79
Originally Posted By: mjs
Current Steingraeber models:
E-272
D-232
C-212 (replacing the 205)
A-170 (rebranded 168 - as far as I understood, the piano had grown a bit over the years and they never adapted the model name)

All pianos optionally with Phoenix system, the 170 optionally with carbon fibre sound board. Standard model is still (and will remain) conventional bridge pins and a spruce sound board. Apparently, the carbon fibre sound board sounds rather good - somewhat different from a spruce one, but still like a piano. Mostly recommended for environments with extreme humidity swings. Just like the Phoenix system, the carbon fibre sound board goes back to Richard Dain of Hurstwood Farm in Kent.

Markus


@mjs:
Why did you prefer a D-232 "standard" model (http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/18493/Searchpage/8/Main/1385/Words/Steingraeber/Search/true/Re:%20Concert%20and%20Piano%20Party%20in.html#Post18493) over the Phoenix* variant with carbon soundboard? Did you ever have the oppurtunity to compare a STEINGRAEBER "standard" grand side-by-side with a Phoenix model in Bayreuth?

Best regards
Wilhelm

*) ... http://www.steingraeber.de/files/Kohlefaser.pdf: "Carbon fibre is climate resistant, extremely dynamic and almost permanently stable. This wood substitute is ideal in extreme climates, e.g., on board ships or in the desert. Richard Dain developed the raw material, Steingraeber & Sons the processing technology and acoustic installation with three options: pure carbon fibre, acoustically altered, or laminated maple (on both sides or only on the upper one). Available for all Phoenix grand pianos and models with classical bridge: A-170, C-212, D-232."




Edited by Wilhelm6 (05/14/09 09:38 AM)

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#1199051 - 05/14/09 11:19 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Wilhelm6]
mjs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: München, Germany
I never played the 232 "standard" next to a Phoenix model. However, I played the 205 "standard" and 205 Phoenix side by side. There is a previous thread of mine (shopping thread) where there are a few comments of mine regarding the tonal differences.
Another, quite important, factor was that when I selected the piano, there was a choice between two standard 232s, one of which was available on short notice. A Phoenix probably would have put me on the waiting list.

I haven't played a carbon fibre model myself, I have seen the carbon fibre soundboard, though.

Also, these additional options would have pushed the price beyond what I was prepared to pay, so it would have meant the shorter piano.
_________________________
Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord

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#1199117 - 05/14/09 01:25 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: mjs]
Wilhelm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 79
Thanks a bunch for your informative reply. I confess that I already was reading the marked thread as well as your thread about your visit to the STEINGRAEBER manufacture, but obviously not thorough enough. Your report on your playing experience regarding the special characteristics of the STEINGRAEBER-Phoenix system at "Hurstwood Farm Piano" was the most differentiated I could read so far. May be that we sometimes have the opportunity to compare the sound characteristics of the so far three variants of composite soundboards (pure carbon vs. carbon with a single sided veneer layer vs. double sided veneer layered carbon) in "standard" STEINGRAEBER grands, too.

Wilhelm

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#1200266 - 05/16/09 05:20 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Gary at Encore]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Nice! I was at Hurstwood Piano Farm in March and got to play all the Phoenix instruments that were in stock (and Stuart & Sons), including a 168 with CF soundboard. As far as I'm concerned, they're the best pianos in the world... And Hurstwood Farm is such a gem. I was at a loss for words.

Also, I read on your site that you carry Charles Walter pianos with the smaller keyboards... and that the factory installs these. I've been trying to find one of these keyboards in Chicago, but none seem to exist. Think I'd be able to see one at their factory in Indiana?






Edited by beethoven986 (05/16/09 05:21 AM)
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#1200283 - 05/16/09 06:15 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: beethoven986]
Wilhelm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 79
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Nice! I was at Hurstwood Piano Farm in March and got to play all the Phoenix instruments that were in stock (and Stuart & Sons), including a 168 with CF soundboard*. As far as I'm concerned, they're the best pianos in the world... And Hurstwood Farm is such a gem. I was at a loss for words.

Also, I read on your site that you carry Charles Walter pianos with the smaller keyboards**... and that the factory installs these. I've been trying to find one of these keyboards in Chicago, but none seem to exist. Think I'd be able to see one at their factory in Indiana?


Which of the three available versions*** of the CF soundboard did you try out? Did you conceive differences between the STEINGRAEBER 168 Phoenix with the standard soundboard (spruce) vs. STEINGRAEBER 168 Phoenix with the CF soundboard? Would you like to share your experiences with the Phoenix models vs. the standard models (STEINGRAEBER 168, 205, 232, 272)? Did you have the opportunity to play on the BÖSENDORFER Imperial Phoenix at Hurstwood Farm Pianos, too? What are your impressions of the STUART grands?

Wilhelm


* ... http://www.piano-klavier.eu/content/view/231/474/lang,de/


** ... http://www.steinbuhler.com/index.html


*** ... http://www.steingraeber.de/files/Kohlefaser.pdf: "Carbon fibre is climate resistant, extremely dynamic and almost permanently stable. This wood substitute is ideal in extreme climates, e.g., on board ships or in the desert. Richard Dain developed the raw material, Steingraeber & Sons the processing technology and acoustic installation with three options: pure carbon fibre, acoustically altered, or laminated maple (on both sides or only on the upper one). Available for all Phoenix grand pianos and models with classical bridge: A-170, C-212, D-232."

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#1200325 - 05/16/09 09:04 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Wilhelm6]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
There was one Steingraeber with a CF soundboard, a model 168, laminated on the top only. The difference between the standard Phoenix and the CF Phoenix was minimal; both sound different from a regular piano, but in a good way, and I definitely got the impression that it was a larger piano than it actually was. The half-blow pedal mechanism was a nice touch, too. Compared to the standard models, I prefer the Phoenix, but the standard Steingraeber is nothing to laugh at. Oh, and I played all models (168, 205, 232, 272) in Phoenix version. There is also R&D work for a completely carbon-fiber piano under way at Hurstwood.

Yes, I played the Imperial Phoenix... loved it.

The Stuart pianos are equally good. Some will prefer the Steingraeber-Phoenix and others will prefer the Stuart. I appreciate (and love) them both... they're way ahead of anyone else. Though, I am anxious to see what David Klavins is up to.

Also, thanks for the link to DSkeyboards, though I was already aware of the website. The problem is that I don't want to go to Pennsylvania to try one.
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#1200340 - 05/16/09 10:12 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: beethoven986]
Wilhelm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 79
Thank you for your remarks.
How would you describe the differences in touch an tone between the four different sized STEINGRAEBER grands (168 vs. 205 vs. 232 vs. 272)?
In addition, how would you describe the differences in touch and tone between E-272 vs. Imperial?
Did you get some more in-depth information about Dan´s ambitious composite piano project (http://www.hurstwoodfarmpianos.co.uk/news.php?news_id=22), which size(s) and when they plan to come out to the public?

Best regards
Wilhelm

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#1200345 - 05/16/09 10:24 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: schwammerl]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: schwammerl
Quote:
The piano is really 170cm with the lid overhang, so Udo Steingraeber has decided to change the model number to A170.


I would like to hope there is a bit more than merely re-measuring and renaming the 168 as this would simply be a marketing ploy in the hope people will think one inch makes all the dif ference.


If this is a marketing ploy it's really serious grin sleep and I will never play a Steingraeber again or accept one even if offered for free! I wonder if this will be front page news on the NY Times. Steingraebergate!

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#1200446 - 05/16/09 02:07 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Wilhelm6]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Steingraeber pianos are remarkably consistent instruments, especially in terms of their action. On the light side, like most European instruments, which is what I prefer. There are various recordings of the Steingraeber-Phoenix, which would be better for you than me describing its sound. However, I will say that it is powerful, has long sustain, and pure sound.

Imperial plays like an Imperial, sounds like a Phoenix.

The CF piano is in the R&D phase, and probably at least a year away. I believe that Dain wants to make it a concert grand, other than that, I don't know about sizes.
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#1200663 - 05/16/09 10:08 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: beethoven986]
Gary at Encore Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 250
Loc: Dallas, TX
Since beethoven986 has asked about the DS Steinbuhler smaller keyboards. I will start a thread on these in a couple of weeks.
Meanwhile, for your info: We are waiting upon our first pianos from Charles R Walters which have the smaller keyboards. They will come in 7/8 amd 15/16 of normal size. We have been promised them by June 1. We will be the only store in the US to have them for two years as we prove the market for these. You will be able to try them out at our store. Also we are planning on having them at some national conferences. One will be in Chicago at the end of July. We will have them at the National Conference on Keyboard Pedogogy. http://www.francesclarkcenter.org/NationalConference.html Dr. Carol Leone will be having a seminar on Wednesday and will be covering the great detail of study on these smaller keyboards that has been going on at several universities.
Thanks for the interest.
_________________________
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#1200688 - 05/16/09 11:02 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Gary at Encore]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Thank you! As it turns out, that conference is being held about five miles from my house, so that's convenient. I imagine that I'd have to register for this conference, though... small price to pay, I guess. Anyway, I hope it catches on; I've been interested in these keyboards for years, and often wonder why everyone puts up with over-sized keys.

Nicholas
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#1211641 - 06/04/09 11:43 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: beethoven986]
Andreas@vienna Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 1
Hi,

I've bought a Steingraeber A-170 recently. It is an amazing grand. Forget the "baby". It is the best instrument you can buy in the category up to 200cm. Not because Steingraeber says so, but because this was my impression after comparing it with Boesendorfers, Bluethners and Steinways up to 215. In terms of volume, tone and dynamics it outperforms all the instruments of equal or slightly bigger size, and it is on an equal footing with top level instruments between 200 and 220cm. Sure, it has shorter bass strings and therefore especially in the lowest octave you notice that it lacks the length, and hence the intensity of a larger instrument. However, this lowest octave is not that of a "baby grand". It is powerful and if you strike the note you have the impression you crack a walnut. The sound is very crisp, but it is less intensive than the lowest notes of a 215 Boesi.
In general the sound is marvelously balanced and very plastic. Its tone is probably not as warm as a that of a Boesendorfer or Bluethner, more like that of a Steinway, but unlike all others this instrument just sings. Marvellous for romantic and modern repertoire. Play for instance Chopin or Debussy on it. You will love it.
But careful this is a pure bread. It is not easy to play because its clarity unveils every little mistake mercilessly. You have really to work hard on your play and on your dynamics.
I have had occassion to play on two Boesendorfer Imperials (one from 1923, the other from 1955) and even with respect to these instruments the A-170 compares well in terms of plasticity of the sound and the play. Of course in terms of volume there are worlds in between.
Overall it is clear that the A-170 is not conceived by Steingraeber as a "baby grand" for your living room, but as a full fledged professional concert instrument for small halls.
So it cost close to 50k €, but it was definitely worth all that money.

best,
Andrea

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#1211689 - 06/04/09 01:51 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Andreas@vienna]
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Andreas,

Nice description of the Steingraeber 170; an extremely nice instrument indeed.

Where you say "you really have to wotk hard on youy play and dynanics is where is found the Bösendorfer CS 200 easier to controll [the dynamics].

This is why I would hesitate putting the Steingraeber in my living room; too powerfull and somewhat more difficult to controll in the ppp playing; but that is just a metter of taste.

Anyhow I can just dream of an instrument like these.

BTW, where are you located? Austria?

schwammerl.

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#1211747 - 06/04/09 03:38 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: schwammerl]
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Actually, the Steingraebers I've played are very easy to control at low volume - better than nearly any other piano. That is one of their strengths - a very broad dynamic range - very musical piano.

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#1216923 - 06/13/09 05:16 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: kluurs]
plumpfingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Anyone know where I might be able to try a Steingraeber in NY City? I would love to try one, especially a 7 or 9 foot one. I'd like to compare the sound to my Steinway D.

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#1216937 - 06/13/09 06:03 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: plumpfingers]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: plumpfingers
Anyone know where I might be able to try a Steingraeber in NY City? I would love to try one, especially a 7 or 9 foot one. I'd like to compare the sound to my Steinway D.


I believe Faust Harrison carries them. I would call ahead to make sure.

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#1217862 - 06/16/09 12:57 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: pianoloverus]
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1700
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Posted by plumfingers:

Quote:
Anyone know where I might be able to try a Steingraeber in NY City? I would love to try one, especially a 7 or 9 foot one. I'd like to compare the sound to my Steinway D.


plumfingers,

Here at Allegro Pianos, we are the exclusive authorized dealer for Steingraeber Pianos in NYC, New York state and New England.

You are most welcome to try these at our Stamford,CT showroom, about 45 minutes by either car or train from midtown Manhattan.
We currently have the grand pianos models 168, 170, 205 (6'9), 212 (7'), and 232 (7'7), and the upright models 130 and 138...but please call ahead and let me know if you decide to visit.

We usually carry also the model 272 concert grand, but one had been sold recently, and its replacement has yet to arrive.
The recent vintage Steinway D that we got as a trade towards this Steingraeber is now taking the very same spot reserved for the 272 in our recital space (until the new 272's arrival)...alongside a Bosendorfer Imperial and a Bluthner concert grand.
Thanks,

Ori
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Restored Steinway pianos.

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#1217908 - 06/16/09 03:24 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Ori]
mjs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/07
Posts: 365
Loc: München, Germany
@schwammerl: I think the volume produced by the Steingraeber instruments (although potentially phenomenal) is not really a problem, even in a smallish room. Our D-232 is in a room of something like 25 sqm, 2.5m high ceilings, and is just marvellous. Yes, playing it is a bit like listening to music vie headphones, it is very direct, but that isn't a problem. I do have to say, though, that one reason of choosing the D-232 over the 205 (the C-212 wasn't out then) was a somewhat more intimate sound. Playing piano and pianissimo and even softer is definitely possible (as is making the house shake), so it really depends on the player. One thing I have noticed is that in the past 9 months the instrument has improved considerably in the evenness of the action with parts settling, felts compressing, etc., making ppp-playing even easier.

If you have a chance to be in Munich then, you can hear it in a recital on the 18th of July ...

Markus
_________________________
Steingraeber D-232 # 45 777
Neupert Telemann harpsichord

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#1218211 - 06/16/09 04:54 PM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: Ori]
plumpfingers Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 160
Loc: Northern California
Thanks Ori. I will call ahead when I can get out to Stamford to try the Steingraeber--possibly in the next week.

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#1227240 - 07/05/09 04:03 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: schwammerl]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
Steingraebers are very well mannered instruments... very easy to control. If anything, the Phoenix version, with its half-blow pedal, is one of the easiest pianos to play ppp. The only other pianos that have this (that I know of) are Stuart & Sons and Fazioli (fourth pedal not standard).
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#1227242 - 07/05/09 05:21 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: beethoven986]
CJM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 140
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Steingraebers are very well mannered instruments... very easy to control. If anything, the Phoenix version, with its half-blow pedal, is one of the easiest pianos to play ppp. The only other pianos that have this (that I know of) are Stuart & Sons and Fazioli (fourth pedal not standard).

The Stuart does not have a half-blow pedal, but has two separate soft pedals (dolce and una corda) each of which have separate and distinct tonal and volume characteristics, but most importantly and quite uniquely may be used separately or in tandem. The Steingraeber half-blow pedal is nowhere near as flexible nor as effective in practice as the Stuart arrangement. The Fazioli fourth pedal (when installed and only on their 3.1m piano as I understand it) is placed in such a position that the una corda pedal cannot be used at the same time - it's either one or the other.

Regards
Chris


Edited by CJM (07/05/09 05:23 AM)
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#1227255 - 07/05/09 06:51 AM Re: Steingraeber 170 [Re: CJM]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3297
The Stuart's fourth pedal brings the hammers closer to the strings... it is a half-blow pedal (or dolce pedal). And then, of course, the una corda pedal is the third pedal.

The Steingraeber-Phoenix does combine the two pedals in one via an ingenious adaptation of a bicycle hydraulic thing. The reason for this is to keep the pedal number at three (apparently, four pedals is disorienting to some people). It may not be as flexible, in that one can't use both soft pedals at the same time, but 99% of people probably wouldn't miss that... I didn't take advantage of that when I played the Stuart, and didn't mind the setup on the Steingraeber-Phoenix.

Fazioli's fourth pedal is offset to the left... there's a picture of it on the company's website. I imagine that it would be rather cumbersome to use both soft pedals with this arrangement, as you said, but again I don't think most people would care to use them simultaneously.

And as it turns out, the fourth pedal is standard of the 308, but can be added to all other models for an extra 10,400 dollars (according to Larry Fine).

Bed time smile
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Casio PX 850
by ryand90
04/19/14 07:41 PM
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04/19/14 07:34 PM
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give up on old acoustics and buy a digital?
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I think I have a problem
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