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#1225333 - 06/30/09 10:09 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: mkorman]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Originally Posted By: mkorman
Originally Posted By: JerryS88

One very effective way of practicing this Etude is to transform it into a holding exercise by holding the thumb and 2nd fingers for the duration of each quarter note while 3,4, and 5 play the upper notes, letting go of the 2nd only where holding it for the entire beat is not possible. Holding exercises are the most effective for developing finger independence.


Could you please explain how that exercise is supposed to accomplish finger independence?


Sure. In holding exercises, by holding down one or more fingers while you play the others, you automatically subtract forearm rotation, arm weight and arm movements in general from the equation. By doing so you are left with the ability to articulate only with the fingers. Now, keep in mind this is only being recommended as a preparatory exercise to develop your finger articulation, in this case of the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers. When you actually play the piece you will be free to play with a combination of finger articulation and arm movements, although in an etude like this one that goes at a very fast clip I believe finger articulation will play the larger role. Mostly you'll use your arm movement to position the hand in the most comfortable position for each chord and of course to "glide" the hand left and right as it moves up and down the keyboard.

You may want to investigate Dohnanyi's holding exercises to work on your 4th and 5th finger independence and power. The first 11 of his exercises use many varied holding combinations that give each finger a good workout. I found them to be tremendously helpful. Be aware, however, that this type of work should be done slowly, i.e. in small doses over a long period of time, with constant vigilance to avoid harmful strain. Keep in mind that just because you are holding one or more fingers down while you play holding exercises, that does not mean that your hand, wrist, and arm should be stiff - quite the contrary - it's important to relax them as much as is possible as you do these exercises.

As others have mentioned, the upper line of this etude should be practiced alone (actually it is essential), perhaps even as a first step. Another excellent way of developing finger independence and power is to play an etude like this and accent one finger throughout. So, for instance, practice the upper line accenting the 4th finger throughout whenever it plays. This can be done with each finger, one at a time. You will soon discover which of your fingers need the most work. It may be a surprise. In addition to my weak 4th fingers, I discovered I had "lazy" 2nd fingers.

One more tip. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you identify and mark the different sections in this etude. Several of them repeat. When I practice an etude like this I skip over repeated sections - otherwise I will wind up practicing those passages twice or even three times as much as others, with uneven results.

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#1225385 - 07/01/09 12:52 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: JerryS88]
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3436
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
And when we're done with all that practicing, will we still get here:

Wilhelm Backhaus

or here:

Lazar Berman

or here:

Vadim Rudenko?
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#1225479 - 07/01/09 08:43 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: Palindrome]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Originally Posted By: Palindrome
And when we're done with all that practicing, will we still get here:

Wilhelm Backhaus

or here:

Lazar Berman

or here:

Vadim Rudenko?


I wish! But then for me piano is my avocation, not my vocation, so I didn't get to practice 8 hours a day since childhood, not to mention that my early technical training sucked and I'm having to develop all this finger independence at the ripe old age of 50. Still, after about 6 months of on and off practice I can play it pretty comfortably at a respectable 120-126 to a quarter note (dang the first beat of bar 26!). I'm pleased with that for now and expect to improve with more practice.

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#1226909 - 07/04/09 05:12 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: mkorman]
Quite a Delight Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 97




Educational footage.
_________________________
Simply rather marvellous.

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#1226958 - 07/04/09 10:43 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: Quite a Delight]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Wow - Instructive, indeed - Look at those fingers move! I downloaded the Tsvetkov and played it back one frame at a time to check out his fingering - from the general lack of in and out arm movements I suspected there was either some redistribution or dropping of notes going on. In just a few key places I was right. He starts the etude on the 2nd finger, which means he takes the middle C with the left hand. In measure 4 he takes the D#, E and D on beats 2, 3 and 4 with the left hand. In measure 20 he leaves out the Ab on beat 3 and in measure 22 leaves out the thumb G - I've seen other pianists do that and it really helps. I am most grateful for being able to see what he does on the first beat of measure 26 - my nemesis! He plays it with 2-4 and then continues 5-4-5. I never thought of that - what a great solution! In measure 30 he uses 3-4-3-4 3-4-3-4 instead of the 3-4-3-4 5-4-3-4 - a little awkward for me actually. And finally, in measures 32-35 he uses 4-5-3-5 on all those cascading figures instead of Chopin's 4-5-4-5. I guess a lot of this could be considered "cheating," but on the other hand these are just a few places - you still need an awesome technique to play it at this speed.

In general I find it instructive to see how steadily and smoothly the arm is moved from left to right with a complete absence of sudden in and out movements where the thumb goes from playing white to black keys, and also how active the thumb appears to be, being lifted and articulated on its own - almost as though the pianist is consciously keeping any forearm rotation from aiding in its articulation. One can see it being lifted in several section especially when viewed in slow motion. This has me thinking about coming up with some new preparatory studies to work on the thumb articulation.

Thanks for posting these videos!

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#1226991 - 07/04/09 12:34 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: JerryS88]
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3436
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Thank you, Jerry, for spending the time to do such a careful analysis. I'll probably never play this piece (for me it holds the same fascination a flame has for a moth, but I think I can keep myself away from it), but this should be tremendously helpful to anyone who wants to play it at this terrific speed.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#1227018 - 07/04/09 01:44 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: Palindrome]
sotto voce Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 5831
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Those fingerings can be found in various editions of this etude. It's always a good idea to compare and contrast among several.

Steven
_________________________
Ambitious autodidact and amateur moving music from
over my head to under my fingers:

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46 & Fantaisie Op. 49
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1227274 - 07/05/09 08:13 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: sotto voce]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
Those fingerings can be found in various editions of this etude. It's always a good idea to compare and contrast among several.

Steven


I agree with you, Steven, but a few of the fingerings are ones I've not seen in any of the four editions I have, and this is the first time I've seen that 2-4 fingering for measure 26. One or two of his redistributions are also unusual, and none of my editions suggest the dropping of any notes.

The more I reflect back on the video one thing that really strikes me is the way the thumb is played. It seems as though the pianist is stretching the thumb forward, as if to minimize the discrepency in length between it and the other fingers, which would also contribute to minimizing in and out arm movements. I remember having the same impression watching another video of someone playing this etude. I've already thought up two thumb studies based on the Etude - I'll try them out when I return from vacation next week before posting.

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#1227296 - 07/05/09 10:19 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: JerryS88]
sotto voce Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 5831
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I am perplexed right now that none of the seven editions I have (Cortot, Esteban, Friedheim, Klindworth, Mikuli, Mirovitch, Paderewski, Sternberg) gives 4-5-4-5 for the first group of bar 26; they all indicate 5-5-4-5. I feel that I must have gotten it somewhere, as my inability to implement clever fingering solutions on my own is the very reason I consult those of master editors!

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, fingering is everything in this etude. There are many choices in many places (not including redistribution or dropping of notes, of course), and yet discussions of the piece often seem to take for granted that fingering is straightforward. In my experience, it's anything but.

Steven
_________________________
Ambitious autodidact and amateur moving music from
over my head to under my fingers:

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46 & Fantaisie Op. 49
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1227395 - 07/05/09 03:25 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: JerryS88]
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3436
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: JerryS88
...One or two of his redistributions are also unusual, and none of my editions suggest the dropping of any notes....


Sometimes, a composer will write something impossible that will require dropping some notes (I think I remember Brendan posting a measure or two from Stravinsky's Petrouchka piano transcription that seemed to fall in that category), but it seems proscribed on moral [?!] grounds to omit notes in a technical study. Redistribution would seem a lesser sin. I guess. I'll admit to some confusion here.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#1227575 - 07/05/09 11:31 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: Palindrome]
wr Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 1895
Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Originally Posted By: JerryS88
...One or two of his redistributions are also unusual, and none of my editions suggest the dropping of any notes....


Sometimes, a composer will write something impossible that will require dropping some notes (I think I remember Brendan posting a measure or two from Stravinsky's Petrouchka piano transcription that seemed to fall in that category), but it seems proscribed on moral [?!] grounds to omit notes in a technical study. Redistribution would seem a lesser sin. I guess. I'll admit to some confusion here.


Don't you see that if it is a technical study, it simply makes no sense to omit notes? What would the point of a study be, if not to play the notes as written? I think that redistribution is not necessarily a lesser issue coming from the technical aspect, but on musical grounds, it is not as potentially damaging to the piece.

However, some of this does depend just a little on the composer and how reliable and knowledgeable you think they are in technical matters. Chopin seems to have be quite fastidious about what he was doing in his etudes, and I'd be very reluctant to change anything, if only because I might be missing out on learning what he had to teach. Scriabin, on the other hand, well, I don't know...his etudes can be wonderful music, but I don't completely trust him on the technical end of things and might be more willing to change something because of that.

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#1227804 - 07/06/09 04:12 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: wr]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Palindrome
Originally Posted By: JerryS88
...One or two of his redistributions are also unusual, and none of my editions suggest the dropping of any notes....


Sometimes, a composer will write something impossible that will require dropping some notes (I think I remember Brendan posting a measure or two from Stravinsky's Petrouchka piano transcription that seemed to fall in that category), but it seems proscribed on moral [?!] grounds to omit notes in a technical study. Redistribution would seem a lesser sin. I guess. I'll admit to some confusion here.


Don't you see that if it is a technical study, it simply makes no sense to omit notes? What would the point of a study be, if not to play the notes as written? I think that redistribution is not necessarily a lesser issue coming from the technical aspect, but on musical grounds, it is not as potentially damaging to the piece.

However, some of this does depend just a little on the composer and how reliable and knowledgeable you think they are in technical matters. Chopin seems to have be quite fastidious about what he was doing in his etudes, and I'd be very reluctant to change anything, if only because I might be missing out on learning what he had to teach. Scriabin, on the other hand, well, I don't know...his etudes can be wonderful music, but I don't completely trust him on the technical end of things and might be more willing to change something because of that.


In general I agree with you, wr - the purpose of an etude is to tackle difficulties. My analysis was more to point out what modifications this pianist made, not necessarily to advocate their use. On the other hand, the changes are few enough that I think it would be a stretch to imply that they defeat entirely the purpose and benefit of this etude. I'm not sure which, if any, I might choose to employ myself - very few if any, I think, and I'm glad I started out learning the etude without any simplifications. I have to add, though, that all three of these strategies, clever fingering, judicious redistributing, and yes, even knowing when to drop a note or two with minimal musical impact, are valuable skills for a pianist when faced with forbidding technical challenges, perhaps more justifyable in repertoire than in etudes. Concerning the dropped notes, there are only 2 in the entire piece (ms. 22, 24).

I left out one more modification he makes. On the first beat of bar 8 he plays the G# with the left hand, avoiding a very awkward right hand position on the 1st inversion E major chord. I don't remember if he drops the lower E in the left hand or manages to include it - that would be a big stretch [actually I just looked at it again, and I don't see how he could play the G# with the LH thumb while playing an octave E below - I think he must have dropped the lower E (will have to look at it again when I get home from vacation) - dropped note number 3].

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#1229194 - 07/09/09 11:26 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: sotto voce]
Damon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 520
Loc: St. Peters, Missouri USA
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I am perplexed right now that none of the seven editions I have (Cortot, Esteban, Friedheim, Klindworth, Mikuli, Mirovitch, Paderewski, Sternberg) gives 4-5-4-5 for the first group of bar 26; they all indicate 5-5-4-5. I feel that I must have gotten it somewhere, as my inability to implement clever fingering solutions on my own is the very reason I consult those of master editors!


Seven editions! You must have quite a library, if the remainder is equally multifarious. I just started this etude and immediately changed bar 26 to 4-5-4-5 just because I don't like sliding off keys.
_________________________
Damon

I've been Horowitzianed!

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#1229214 - 07/10/09 12:06 AM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: Damon]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
I am perplexed right now that none of the seven editions I have (Cortot, Esteban, Friedheim, Klindworth, Mikuli, Mirovitch, Paderewski, Sternberg) gives 4-5-4-5 for the first group of bar 26; they all indicate 5-5-4-5. I feel that I must have gotten it somewhere, as my inability to implement clever fingering solutions on my own is the very reason I consult those of master editors!


Seven editions! You must have quite a library, if the remainder is equally multifarious. I just started this etude and immediately changed bar 26 to 4-5-4-5 just because I don't like sliding off keys.



When I get home from vacation I'll see about scanning and posting Tsvetkov's fingerings (I wrote them in lightly on my Cortot score) - then sotto voce will have eight!

Incidentally, I was wrong about what he does in the left hand on the first beat in measure 8. He leaves out the E above middle C, not the lower E, thus he plays a 10th, low E-G#, which allows him to play only the top two notes of the 1st inversion E Major chord in the RH, using 1-3. This is one modification I am considering using - playing that G# B E with fingers 1-2-3 is just such a stretch.

This week I made a significant breakthrough on the etude by making a conscious effort to lift the 4th finger, while keeping it curved, each time before it plays. I know that sounds counterintuitive, to lift fingers in an etude that goes so fast, but it really helps articulate the 4th cleanly, especially in what is for me the stickiest section of the etude, measures 25-29. I lift it exageratedly when practicing at slow and moderate tempo. At performance tempo the amount of lift will naturally be reduced.

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#1231151 - 07/13/09 09:30 PM Re: Chopin Op. 10 No. 2 [Re: JerryS88]
JerryS88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 532
Loc: Ringwood, NJ
As promised, Tsvetkov's fingering, including redistribution and omitted notes (once again - not advocating anything, just reporting). Hope it's OK to post this. I wrote them in my Cortot score but erased all of Cortot's fingerings except for last three measures where Tsvetkov uses same fingerings with noted exceptions:




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