The Fine list (that is not mfr.'s list) for 45" CW 1500 satin ebony, new, is 10,700; applying a hypothetical 30% negotiated discount yields 7490, so 6550 might be an ok, but not spectacular deal. That does not include sales tax, or any surcharge for especially-distant delivery.

You didn't tell us how old this piano is, but it's a little scratched up and it's not new (I could say no better for myself, though). And we don't know if it has the Renner action, or the Chinese. Either is acceptable if you like the touch; the Renner costs more.

Anyway, it's a used piano, and we always suggest that a tech (paid for by you and not the seller) inspect first for condition. They can also tell you the current market value. A scratched case might mean almost nothing--- some trivial mishap--- or some more serious mishandling. You should find out.

The Walters are well spoken of. Why you would weep, I can't explain; many people wait until they find a mouse nest to shed actual tears, but this sounds different. (If you haven't gotten in the habit of opening them up and looking inside the case (at least the top), it can be very revealing.)

How did your husband like it?

Very sensible to sleep on it, think it over. Spend a hundred bucks on a tech inspection if you think it's for you.

My dealer tried to sell me a Walter grand, but I bought the Kawai RX5 sitting next to it. The underside wasn't finished as beautifully as the Walter's case (yes, I was down on the floor looking), but it sounded better to me... more punch in the treble, a grumbly sound in the bass, and a nice midrange (where a lot of pianos fall short). And the touch felt nicer to me.

But, that's me. You have to believe your own ears and fingers, and inner feeling.

Thank you!

The piano is new, just shopworn from what I have been told. Is the satin prone to that? I am not sure about the action, though I did look inside, I didn't think to ask teh renner/china question. Duh. Good news = no mice

I would love someone to check the serial # to check out how long this thing has been with them. If it's real shop worn and a few years old, do we assume it's been rented and deserves a little discount?

The price is with shipping, but tax is $0 at sale since it's out of state. Sales/use is paid in VT, so that improves things a little I think? (He is calling it $6300 + $350 for delivery three hours away)

Thank you again!

Oh yeah, also, hubby did really like.

welcome home, LVP,

I'm sorry your day was so emotionally draining. I think it's miles and some frustration. Forgive me for smiling, but I know exactly where you are.

Walter pianos are nice, aren't they? I just listened to two 1520's on YouTube. It's incredible how much sound they get out of a 45" piano. The only list of Walter serial numbers I found ends in 2002, but extrapolating from that, it looks like the one you saw was built around 2004. Pianoworks in Atlanta has a 5 year old Walter 1500 for $5400. $6650 sounds a little much to me, but I'm in a different market. $600 more for a new one sounds like a better deal, but it's still $600 more. Don't know about the finish durability. The marred finish would bother me. OCD.

I still can't find a recording of a Knabe upright. I just looked on YouTube again and couldn't find anything. I did find a super recording of "I'll Be Home For Christmas" on a Knabe grand. What a fine sounding instrument! I'll have to think about moving the dining table out. If you're up for one more road trip.......

Sleep on it. Talk to St. Husband. Maybe even take a week off. And smile.

Charles

According to Blue Book of Pianos, the piano you're interested is newer than 2002. Not a real big help, but I don't have my copy of the Pierce Piano Atlas handy - maybe someone else here does and can get closer. Alternatively, you could call -- (574)266-0615 -- or e-mail Walter Pianos directly - I'm sure they can tell you exactly how old that instrument is. Most posters here seem to like Walters, and they seem to be respected as well-made pianos. Good luck - and keep us posted!

lvp, it's wonderful that you found a piano that spoke to you. Trust your instincts.

I guess I have a slightly different opinion of the price than Jeff. Conventional wisdom is to try to negotiate on a final price 25-30% off Fine's estimates. The deal offered is considerably more than 30% off, so I think it's much better than an "okay" deal and may well be on its way to a spectacular deal. It also wasn't at all clear to me that the piano was "used." It sounded like it has just been on the dealer's floor, in which case it is still a new piano. Of course, it's worth checking with the dealer and verifying it's history.

As for satin polishes, I love the satin polish on my M&H. I think they look more dignified than an ebony gloss, but it's a matter of personal preference. But, yeah, they do show marks and scratches fairly easily. The good news is that slight marks are pretty easy to remove. My piano had a whole bunch of slight scratches on the music desk when I was shopping, and I asked the dealer about them. He buffed them out in less than five minutes. (Though you would want to make sure you knew what you were doing before trying to fix them yourself.)

Of course, I put new scratches on it almost immediately. These days I just consider them like I do my wrinkles... signs of a long and happy life.

Thanks Monica!

How do you polish the marks out?

PS, love your blog! I have a much younger sibling your son could relate to!

Liza

Thanks, lvp! I'm woefully behind on the blogs and need to update them.

My dealer used a special grade of steel wool and just buffed the scratches very very lightly. I would be too nervous to try this myself, as I gather it is easy to miscalculate and go right through the finish, which would be a hideous mistake. But it could be worth your effort to ask the dealer if he could fix those blemishes in the finish as a condition of the sale.

p.s. Fingerprints are easy to get rid of; a microfiber cloth moistened with warm water will do the trick in most cases.

"New" makes it a different story, price-wise. It's not so unusual for dealers to have them on the floor for a few years. One that's been rented out cannot be sold as new; they are used in fact. Sometimes dealers loan pianos out to music festivals, yet are allowed to sell them as new--- a gray area.

People specialize in this finish work; it will not be that much money to set some small blemishes right. You wouldn't want to do it yourself. It will have some effect on the resale value, which the quoted price, no doubt, reflects.

Delivery sounds reasonable for the distance. So, what you were quoted includes everything... not so bad. Includes the maker's warranty for the original buyer, another plus. And no mouse nests. And you love it.

While you're contacting the maker tomorrow, you could ask them about the action. They used to use Langer actions in the uprights, as they owned the company outright. Once Walter sold Langer off, they moved production to China. It would be interesting to know, and they would probably find it interesting to tell you.

There was a post today that mentioned some scaling issues across the tenor break, but you can read that one for yourself. It is not an unusual issue for pianos, especially smaller ones. The person who posted still liked the instrument quite well.

Thank you! I will find out about the action tomorrow. Good thing they are one time zone away. If I don't stop thinking about pianos during work hours I may not be able to pay the bill when the piano is delivered! Must get some billable hours in......

I'll let you all know about the action!

Also, Clef, do you think this in any way a bad choice for my musical taste? You play jazz, right? I tried throwing this question out there on the non-classical threads, but the response has been largely 'buy a digital' which is a total non-starter with me. I wonder if I would want something different if I had been playing for a few years. I guess that could be inevitable, but I don't have plans to trade up real soon if I commit to this price point!

I called Walter and got rushed off the phone! What? Not what I expected.

They told me it was 'new' but don't have records of what the action was, so now I have to wait for the dealer to call me back after their vacation (maybe one of their teachers will get my message and call back sooner.) I couldn't even ask what year it was, and the guy was clearly trying to get me off the phone (other line was ringing in the background)I understand not having time on a Monday morning, but I was expecting more information and better customer service. I threw all my questions at him anyhow but I could tell he wanted to hang up. Jeez, just tell a girl you have to call back!

Anyhow, I am still action-information-free. And a little sad that I didn't get the famous white glove Walter customer service.

:P

"They told me it was 'new' but don't have records of what the action was"

Sorry, I don't believe it for a minute.

"I couldn't even ask what year it was, and the guy was clearly trying to get me off the phone"

Have your husband call.

"do you think this in any way a bad choice for my musical taste? ...on the non-classical threads, the response has been largely 'buy a digital'..."

I guess the answer is, sleep on it another night; ask your intuition. If I had this question, I think I would want to audition the instrument further and be sure for myself. No piano is perfect, but this one did make you weep--- ask your intuition about that too, while it's there.

You did not want a digital, so that disposes of that question. Maybe the person at Walter just spilled his coffee over the desk as you were calling, or--- who knows. Try them again. You have a right to the answers before you buy, your questions are quite reasonable. The marque is well-considered because they do try to do a good job of designing and building instruments, and they've been in the business a long time... so there's some real interest and some dedication there. It may or may not be right for you, but it is not junk. Many people are happy with them.

Possibly a brief e-mail to them might allow them to answer you more fully, and at a time that's convenient for them... and that might let you put it aside and get those billable hours in.

I know! What is that about? Probably stressed and busy and not having time to deal with the phone. I laughed when you said to have my husband call. I am not officially buying a used car Maybe I'll just email them from HIS email address.

Thanks again! I talked to another Walter dealer today who is more interested in doing really substantial prep, and I am thinking that all of this might have just been meant to lead me to a store that I liked better. We'll see, a bit more homework first.

Thank you again! I'll try the email tack while on lunch. Blessedly getting some hours in today... Think how hard that will be with a piano actually in the house! Hah!

Hi, LVP,

You sound more "up" today than you did after the NY trip.

I just reread the thread. It sounds like the Walter 1500 is probably "it," but you're still dragging your feet just a little bit. That sounds normal to me: it's a good idea, too. When you do "jump," you'll be confident in your choice. Don't buy just to end the process. Be sure it's the one you love. Personally, I'd go for the new Walter over the not-quite-new one for $600 difference. I'm not sure if the ones I saw had the Renner action or the Langer. I'm not sure that I could tell the difference.

You probably saw the thread discussing this. There was no real concensus, just opinion. My opinion is that Charles Walter tries hard to make quality instruments and if the Langer action feels right to me, I would buy it and save the $1200. Just my opinion. If you haven't seen that thread, it's "Charles Walter Uprights with Chinese Action?" It's currently on the first page of the forum.

Now, take a deep breath and enjoy the ride.

Charles

Thank you, I did see the thread. You are right, not a lot of consensus, but still great timing for me. We thought the action on this baby was sweet...it was amazing how quietly you could play thing thing (and vice versa!) Now I am even more curious to hear what the heck it is. Unfortunately, tune in next week for the answer. If it's Chinese, I'll be impressed.

Just to add another layer, my piano teacher said that there is a 1913 Mason & Hamlin D that he adores that I would probably like out there in the world (again, another full day trip). It's beautiful and priced right, so I think I'll check that out while I am waiting for the CW dealer to get back. I hadn't thought about a restored piano, but my teacher thought the sound was what resonates with me, and they have a warranty...so why not explore a bit more?

You are right Charles, I do feel better now. Probably since I am honing in on the right thing. Oh, and the awesome Billy Joel/Elton John tickets I scored last night.

Thanks for your continued support!

A Mason & Hamlin upright! That'd be sweet. I've liked the few Mason & Hamlins I've seen. You know all the standard advice about older uprights.

You and I seem to like the same piano sounds. I like standards, old jazz, hymns, things like that. Until I decided to start lessons again, all I did was beat out parts for choir. I think I sounded better next to the old Whitney spinet than I do next to the new piano, although the Kawai now needs its "free" tuning. It's doing some odd harmonizing. I'll call Jerry in about two weeks.

Jerry has a concert coming up soon and is getting ready now. It's a four grand piano thing. I know two of the pianists. One's my church's pianist and one is my dealer/tech. The other two are a college professor and ________. Fill in blank. I forgot. They did a similar concert a few months ago. Full house, good reviews. I didn't go because the weather was absolutely awful. Thunderstorms, hail, tornado warnings. I stayed home with the cat. I'm not sure if I'm going to this one, either. My mother's in the hospital right now and I'm not sure what's happening near term.

Anyway, I've rambled enough for now. When's the Billy Joel/Elton John concert? Two great talents. It'll be excellent.

Charles

That'll do it every time! Saw them in Cleveland, great show!

Ah, I understand how life tends to get in the way of music. Too true- hope you can make, it sounds awesome!

Our concert is on the 18th, so I don't have to wait too long! I am trying to get my husband to catch up on his Elton so he'll enjoy it as much as me! I love them both in equal measure, the hubs is a totally Billy Joel fan. It promised to be awesome, I can't wait! I am trying to hold off buying tickets for the week after too (we are located halfway between the two shows they are playing that week, each are three hours away..)

We are planning on seeing the Mason and Hamlin soon so we can make a decision pronto. I need to get this in my house, I just can't take it anymore. I know I shouldn't rush, but I think I have narrowed it down to choices that are good, great, and fantastic. Not a bad place to be! Everyone keeps saying that one will just 'follow me home'. Having had dogs before, I understand this completely. I suspect the M&H will try really hard to get in my trunk! It has the perk of coming with a strong recommendation from someone who knows my taste in sound, and it's beautiful...

We'll see....

So, quick update....

Availed myself of the Larry Fine 'call me and ask me your piano questions service'. Great service, very nice to vet my final contenders with him! I am a total information junkie and so love going above and beyond on research, but think that it was still worth the money even for those who might not be so info-crazy. His knowledge filled in some gaps for me and helped me feel better about making a decision without weeks and weeks more filled with road trips. He had some great info that is allowing me to pass on the 118 without driving to see it, particularly, that I will share for general edification (I hope this is fine with Fine!) The 118 S (as opposed to the E) is meant to compete with the UST-8 and has some weird/jarring sound issues when it goes out of tune, which some people interpret as it going out of tune more often. It doesn't, it just sounds weirder and worse when it does. If it had been an E (which is a higher end model, comparable with what I didn't ask... oops ), then I would go see it, but now I think that I can skip it. Tuning stability is important for me. So, that was good to know, it's not in the same class as what I seem most attracted to.

Of course in 45 minutes we covered a ton more stuff, but I won't bore you with more. I just thought it would be nice to update you all about the difference between the S and E which none of us knew.

Also, I think we are are going with the Walter. Gotta confirm tonight with the husband. Mmm. Had more dreams about playing last night, really want this thing home with me. Did I mention that I have been playing something random when test driving these? Apparently, there is a really short melody in my head that I know how to play. I keep playing it over and over. It's probably something I watched my Dad play 1000 times! Can't wait to piddle around more and see if I can remember the rest.

Charles

Update:

So, had to work all week in DC pulling super long days, so I was forced on a bit of a piano hunting vacation. Meanwhile, this week the Walter dealer returned from vacation, and has called me daily, almost always in the middle of the day when I am in a huge meeting and couldn't possibly answer the phone. I can't stand dealing with him, and am seriously thinking that the Walter should come from another store. He is really ticking me off- I told him I was on a business trip and yet he still is calling at really bad times. Yikes, back off! He did get really defensive when I asked about the action- I guess he did tell us when we were at the shop, but I missed it. It is 'Walter' action (read=chinese) though I must say, the action was awesome. I would be curious to feel the Renner, because the chinese was great! It wouldn't put me off at all. But I wish this guy would stop piano-stalking me.

Anyhow, I waiting to pull the trigger until my last two clients pay up (I like to buy things in cash..) so that I can decide if this dealer is ok to deal with. A cooling off period feels like a good thing since I am going to have this for a very long time. There is another dealer that I could use who is an RPT, but his price is higher. Thoughts?

Since I was in DC and flying out of BWI, I decided to stop by the famous Rick Jones warehouse. It was a lot of fun, I have to admit! There were a lot of Yamaha's that were closer to my original price point that were nicely voiced, and not so jarring. Tuning helps! Also, he marks the untuned pianos pretty clearly, so that was nice. I spent about an hour there, Rick gave me his full attention and a small concert on many pianos- it was awesome! The Yamaha touch is great, and there were a few pianos that I could see buying, but I am still less than in love with them than I would like to be. I also tried a May Berlin (pretty sound, awful touch) AND the Boston 118S! That was cool, since that was the one in Massachusettes that I let go of without seeing it after talking to Larry Fine. Ok, I hated the touch. The sound was good, but after the Walter, the touch just paled in comparison. Two hurrahs for Larry! So glad I didn't go with that one, or drive four hours to see it and hate it. There were a bunch of Kawai's that were nice as well, but I think the new k3 would be the route is we didn't buy the Walter. And why do they all have to be glossy? It's tempting though, b/c the prices are really good and some of them sounded really, really nice. Crying nice? No. But much better than I have heard otherwise. And could get us something in our budget. I have to share this- when I was all set, Rick offered to give me a ride (I had taken a cab from the bus station which goes to the airport). I thought he meant back to the bus station two miles away, but he drove me all the way to BWI thirty miles away! Talk about above and beyond. Seriously great guy.

I have all of you to thank for encouraging me to play around in the Shimmel room. Woah- playing really nice pianos puts it all in perspective! Wish I was a doctor, I'd buy a Shimmel upright. Unbelievable. Too bad I am not loaded. Who has $78k for a piano?

If you were hating your dealer, would you pay more for a better relationship? Or is that dumb? Also, I have emailed Walter, and called two more times and gotten no answer. That is part of my hesitation and why I am 'cooling off' before I buy it. What if I was having a real problem with the piano? One of the times I called Walter someone actually picked up the phone and hung up without answering. I understand it might be a bad week (new staff covering vacations, or something) but frankly, I needed a little more good feeling before shelling out double my original maximum.

Funny, seems I have found my piano, but still can't buy it! Larry's book says to buy from someone you can trust- how much does this really matter? If that is important, that means I order a Walter from someone else or I buy the Kawai.

Hope you are all well!

Welcome back. We missed you.

It sounds like you've got it sorted out. If you buy new, go with the dealer you trust to take care of any little problems that might crop up. Hopefully, there won't be any. Having the factory blow me off would tick me off, but I think the relationship with the dealer is more important. A Charles Walter 1500 or a Kawai K-3: two good choices.

I'm jealous; I want to go to Rick Jones's. That sounds like a great time. Maybe I should take the hyperactive cousin to D.C. Do you think he could stand a few hours piano shopping? Was there an arcade room to store the kid in? While I was shopping, I saw Schimmels next to Bosendorfers, Steinways (rebuilt,) Knabes, and...? Too long ago; I forgot. I really liked the Schimmels!! Nice.

Enjoy the concert tomorrow!

Charles

Thanks! So, Rick's warehouse is only two miles ($11 cab fare) from the Greenbelt metro station, so it's really easy to get to. They will even come get you! However, it is in the middle of nowhere tucked in behind a strip mall type shopping area. He said there was an REI a few miles away, so that could be a good place to drop the kid (okay, only half serious, how old is he again?) The shop is wall to wall to wall pianos. Seriously, it's almost hard to walk around. No real places to hang out for the innocent bystander, though it's such a nice place, I bet they would help you make the most of your time, even if it was super limited. Oh, there is a break room with a tv...maybe that is quasi public, cause they keep it open (it's by the front door) and they offered me a drink as soon as I showed up. Might ask about that!

It's too bad he doesn't have any used Walters- I would have walked out with one! Stuck it in my carry on

Hope Billy and Elton are having a nice relaxing day so that tomorrow is one of their best! Yeahhhhhhh!!!! Can't wait!

Well, you've answered your own questions, and that's the way it ought to be. Thanks to you, I went out and played the Walter 1500 and really liked it; I can see why you do.

Let's see: you're not crazy about the pressure from the dealer, the case is marred, and it has the lesser-quality action. Well. There you are. As a rule, they're as nice as they're going to be while they're wooing you (although mine is still very nice to me--- but I liked them in the first place).

Your more important working relationship will be with your piano tech. That's the person who will stick up for you with the maker and local seller if there are warranty issues. Anyway, the warranty on a new piano comes from the maker.

Your treatment from the home office is greatly disappointing. Someone posted about visiting the factory (maybe a year ago) and said they couldn't have been nicer.

I think if it were me, I'd find a seller I felt more comfortable with, who had the instrument with the features I wanted, in perfect condition. Prepped before delivery, better yet. Ask for the moon---why not. Get it in the contract, too.

Thanks for checking back in. Was the concert good?

Rick is a dealer for Hailun.

Any chance to try their 47" H1 or 50" H5 models?

Norbert

Wow!!!!!

Not sure how I missed this thread. Mind you I was out of town when it started.

I just read the whole thing. Sorry I didn't have an opportunity to answer some of your questions from earlier.

First of all I am surprised the factory was less than stellar in helping you with your questions. I have never heard of any customers being rushed off the phone before.

Second the Walters are most likely away right now at the PTG conference in Grand Rapids Michigan and just before they take the show on the road, I'm sure Charles, Kevin, Hope, Kevin Junior, Rachel & Richard and under some pressure getting everything ready.

Third thing we always rub out a satin cabinet before it leaves our floor. There is often little marks created by being around the public. It is a very easy thing to do and takes me about 20 minutes to make the cabinet look perfect.

Even though the Walters prep their pianos better than some. We still spend at least a day, tweaking them. Grands get more time. The felts do settle and rubbing out the strings is a big benefit.
We place every piano on a key pounder before our prep to make sure they are ready for the final set up.

I can't comment on the "Walter action" as I only order them with the Renner.

Trust your dealer even though you may pay more. You may also be getting more.
Purchasing a piano from a qualified technician has it's benefits.

Hope it works out, the Walter is a great piano.

I have just read the whole thing as well. What a great thread, one of the best shopping stories I have read in a while! I can really feel how much this means to you.

We don't seem to have Walter's over in the UK which is a shame. I have never played one so I can't offer much advice there. But I couldn't agree more about the Boston 126. I don't care what anyone says about Boston, the 126 is one of the sweetest uprights I have ever tried. If you were this side of the pond I could point you in the direction of a couple of used ones I have noticed. There will be one out there if you search hard enough and take your time. There should also be some used Schimmels knocking around. I have one which I bought from a private seller 9 years ago and I still love it.

Don't let the search get you down. Enjoy it and keep us informed.

Alas, no! A shame, I don't think I saw any on the floor- though I might have missed them. I was trying to focus on things clearly in my price range since I only had an hour. If they are much pricier (?) I would have zoomed by. I am not sure what sucked me into the $20k Shimmel upright, but it was fun to covet for a few seconds before running back to the 30 year old Yamahas!

Thanks! Glad to hear it's fun for you all to join me on the ride. Posting a zillion questions like this is a totally selfish act, and I have been really appreciative of all of the fantastic advice and support I have gotten along the way! It is really huge for me and I am glad to know that it isn't a total bore. I keep thinking, 'OMG, just buy a piano, these poor people are really probably done hearing about this nonsense and your vacillating." It makes me so happy to hear it's delivered a bit more entertainment than that! I feel less guilty! And it seems that piano people everywhere really really like to talk about pianos-that has been an awesome discovery! My husband is a little jealous- he said his cycling forums aren't nearly as good

Off to Billy Joel in a few minutes! Promise to keep you informed of the next steps...

Best,

Liza

Thank you for this! This shop was going to do only a tuning, and my gut said it needed more PLUS the case to be buffed out! I have convinced hubs to visit the other Walter dealer on the way back from said Joel/John concert, so I think we are closing in- I felt that dealer was a better fit. We'll see how he can do on price- hope it's not tons and tons more. Oh, that reminds me, better make an appointment, it will be Sunday. Glad I logged on or I would have forgotten that. So helpful!

Have a great weekend everyone!