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Joined: Jul 2009
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OP
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I am currently considering a 1972 Kawai 801 which is their furniture model upright similar to the current 508 or 607. The asking price is $1000. It has only one owner, tuned fairly regularly in the beginning and less later. Only tuned once in last 5 years. Cabinet is in great shape and I plan to have a tech look at it. Is this a fair price considering it checks out okay?
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Fair price. This piano is getting long in the tooth for and serious use down the road.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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Fair price. This piano is getting long in the tooth for and serious use down the road. What does this mean?
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Pianos do not last forever. Pianos do not improve with age. Certain catagories of pianos have a predictable useful musical life expectancies. At the age of 37 this piano will be in the last 15% of its useful musical life. The last part is never as satisfying as the first. Over its lifespan: Sustain will diminish Bass string tone will dull Tuning stability will become iratic Key mechanism will become inconsistant The decline of the musical and mechanical properties of a piano are gradual but inevitable. The Asian import pianos of this era were not quite as lasting as the domestic pianos of that day and prior.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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Wow, so this really goes against what I have been told by many. The consensus that I have gotten is that the Japanese made Yamahas and Kawais are the used pianos that are worth buying. I have also been told that pianos of this quality should have a lifespan of 80+ years with general routine maintenance. Is this just BS then?
The piano I am considering has only been practiced on by two children taking lessons and tuned occasionally with only one owner that has really taken care of it (cosmetically at least). It has definitely not seen many hours of play and the internal parts look practically brand new.
I will be using this piano for my own daughter to practice on as she will take lessons. I figure I can get what I need out of it, plus it really is nice looking piano if anything else. It just feels like a kick below the belt to hear it is in its last 15% of useful life...
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Well, you did ask.
If your tech inspection is favorable, it's a thousand bucks for the piano. Not so bad as deals go. If the inspection shows that expensive repairs are needed, you would want to consider it as a factor. That's all. It's piano realpolitik.
Many factors affect how pianos hold up besides how much they've been used, the conditions of environment especially.
I don't think anyone is trying to kick you where the sun don't shine. Eighty years would be surprising. Five to ten would be more realistic.
So, did you like this piano? You didn't say. Did your kids like it? Did it sound good to you, did the keys feel good and work well? Those are the big issues.
And yes, with good care you can keep them going longer than if they don't get it... just not forever.
Clef
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Well, you did ask.
If your tech inspection is favorable, it's a thousand bucks for the piano. Not so bad as deals go. If the inspection shows that expensive repairs are needed, you would want to consider it as a factor. That's all. It's piano realpolitik.
Many factors affect how pianos hold up besides how much they've been used, the conditions of environment especially.
I don't think anyone is trying to kick you where the sun don't shine. Eighty years would be surprising. Five to ten would be more realistic.
So, did you like this piano? You didn't say. Did your kids like it? Did it sound good to you, did the keys feel good and work well? Those are the big issues.
And yes, with good care you can keep them going longer than if they don't get it... just not forever. Five to ten years for the life of a piano? That hardly seems right, but what do I know. That means that the people I have been talking to are full of crap. I understand that it is important to have the piano in a favorable environment and keep it maintained, but I would hate to spend thousands of dollars on a brand new piano to have it last only 5-10 years. The poeple I have talked to make it sound as if 80 years is normal. On an aside, I see these pianos all the time on Craigslist, Yamaha U series over 50 years old $2000-3000 and Baldwin Acrosonic and Hamilton series 30-60 years old for $500-1500. Are these then pretty much, IN GENERAL, pointless to pursue?
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Five to ten more years--- not the total lifespan. I guess I said it wrong.
I suppose a reasonable guess about the total useful life expectancy for a mid-range upright would be as much as forty to fifty years, depending heavily on wear, care, environment, and initial build quality. I believe Marty explained what happens as they wear out--- as any mechanical device will.
There does come a point where keeping them going costs more than a new instrument would. It happened with my washing machine.
Clef
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If there is not much wear on the hammers and each note works good and you got it for $800, you probably would have minimal trouble and not lose much when you get rid of it. I bought a Yamaha 1967 M1 for $1200 and sold it for $1500 and it's action was perfect in 2005.
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"The consensus that I have gotten is that the Japanese made Yamahas and Kawais are the used pianos that are worth buying." They are, just not so old.
"I have also been told that pianos of this quality should have a lifespan of 80+ years with general routine maintenance." The first Kawai pianos came to the U.S. sometime in 1963. Nobody in the U.S. can possibly know the condition of an 80 year old console Kawai until 2043. You were given poor advice about the life expectancy.
How much and how hard a piano is played is only part of the wear equation. There is 20 tons (40,000 pounds) of pressure trying to tear itself appart 24/7 whether played or not.
If you are only "considering" the purchase of this piano, don't feel "kicked" about anything. Keep shopping. If you have already purchased this piano, the time to ask for advice is before you buy.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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How much and how hard a piano is played is only part of the wear equation. There is 20 tons (40,000 pounds) of pressure trying to tear itself appart 24/7 whether played or not. The only part that carries that much tension is the metal plate, and it is certainly capable of doing it for any length of time, provided it was cast properly in the first place.
Semipro Tech
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In this scenario I would have to agree with Jeff Clef as for assessing the preowned cond.of this piano contingent on it's environmental/climatic conditions where it resided and it's alleged low milage. Japanese manufactured Kawai ARE better than anything out of the defunct North Carolina factory. The issue here is the 37 years.If they didn't leave it on the back porch or garage for an extended period of time,hey! $800-1000 is quite fair. I think when persons allege a piano will last 80 years,I think they are refering to if all 88 keys still play. I think what Marty is proposing is that of a musical instrument. The old turn of the century klunker American made uprts. are still going strong as in all 88 keys still sounding at least most of them(keys that is)
Last edited by pianobroker; 07/07/09 12:53 PM.
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BDB,
The tension in a piano is carried primarily by the plate, but the back construction also holds the plate rigid. There is a collective down-bearing pressure on the soundboard trying to push it flat 24/7. The bridges bear tension down and the bridge pins bear tension side to side. The tuning pins are pulled forward and down against the pin block. Each time the piano is tuned the tuning pin holes are reamed slightly. The keybed is supported only on the ends and tends to sag in the middle. The time/wear equation is much more complext than the support of the plate alone. I believe you have over simplified it.
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Absolutely, Marty. Not to forget the strings that lose their "speaking" efficiency with age, the wear and deterioration of the hammers and action. It's a sad, but familiar story with aging pianos. Kind regards, Robert.
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The curse of Apollo. I thought this conversation sounded familiar somehow--- and not just from a nearly-identical one on another current thread.
Wow, it explains everything. (I'm smiling--- nothing explains everything.)
From Wiki (quoting partly from Klein), and Bulfinch's Mythology:
"Cassandra was a daughter of Priam, the King of Troy. Struck by her beauty, Apollo provided her with the gift of prophecy, but" ...when she offended him by refusing his romantic advances... "he placed a curse.. that none would believe her warnings. Cassandra was left with the knowledge of future events, but could neither alter these events nor convince others..."
And there's more:
"Cassandra's need to point out moral infringements and subsequent social consequences is driven by what Klein calls "the destructive influences of the cruel super-ego," which is represented... by the god Apollo.[3] Klein's use of the metaphor centers on the moral nature of certain predictions, which tends to evoke in others "a refusal to believe what at the same time they know to be true, and expresses the universal tendency toward denial, [with] denial being a potent defence against persecutory anxiety and guilt.""
Warren Buffet's warning regarding the stock market "bubble," sure to do what all bubbles do sooner or later, was cited as an example. There were plenty who scoffed.
Oh, I should shut up. People with more patience can answer these questions better.
Clef
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Jeff, I don't believe the sun is over the yardarm until after 4PM. Your post came in at 3:59. Shame on you for dipping into the grog before time!
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop. Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
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