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#1229775 - 07/10/09 09:24 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: pianoloverus]
Musictuary Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Aurora, Illinois, USA
Another point that I think that needs to be considered is that the type of teacher who would charge $100 an hour may not be the typical teacher who gives weekly lessons but may be the type of teacher who based upon his/her expertise would give an occasional lesson to advanced students.

John VDB alluded to this point in an earlier posting.

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#1229814 - 07/10/09 11:01 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: Musictuary]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7345
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I sense an underlying murmur of disapproval for teachers receiving $100 per hour or more. I wonder how many have calculated what a classroom teacher or college professor receives per teaching hour, say an individual with 20 or more years of experience. Note, not what they get paid per hour of work, but per hour of teaching. Obviously, these are generally group lesson situations, so the cost is shared by many.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1229858 - 07/11/09 12:26 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: pianoloverus]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
I would have thoughtthat teachers that teach with a fee of $100 or more per hour would not promote needing to see a student so regularly. See I would think that sort of teacher would teach teachers or concert artists and really advanced pianists. My piano teacher tells me that some truly advanced pianists come to see him for 'coaching' rather than really being 'taught'. It's a bit of guidance and motivation to prepare for a concert.
_________________________
http://colouredsilence.wordpress.com/


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#1229950 - 07/11/09 08:31 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: John v.d.Brook]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4977
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
lilylady, the responses, which for the most part skirt the questions you originally asked, got me to wondering why you asked them in the first place?


Out of curiosity John.

I would like to have some coaching lessons, and wondered what the going rate was for concert pianists/teachers, college profs, around the country might be.

That brought my wandering mind to who charges what, and how do they come to charge that. Who has had these kinds of lessons and did they get out of it what they had expected?

Ideally, I would love to have 2 hours of coaching at a time slot and for several units. I learn a lot from reading here on PW, listening and watching youtubes for comparisons in interpretations, but it isn't the same as a lesson.

As mentioned above, with my piddly income, I shouldn't be entertaining the idea, but I think I would like to travel to someone whom I admire and have a couple of lessons. When if not now? Heck getting a new shower could wait a bit, couldn't it? And I have now lived beyond half my life and try to put that into some perspective as well. But it really is a lot of money!

I wanted to know what other fellow teachers/players thought about high fees and who and how much they would agree to pay for such lessons.

Never have I thought that a teacher didn't deserve to get paid $100, $150. Just wondered who and why some could charge that (in a positive way).

And I thought it might be an interesting topic that others might want to hear about, and share their experiences.
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#1229959 - 07/11/09 08:55 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: lilylady]
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2893
Loc: UK.
I think you need to find the teacher first and then worry about the cost later.

You might be surprised. As a general rule better teachers will command higher fees but it's not always that way. I managed to find exactly the situation you are looking for a few years back. The lady I took lessons with was fantastic. She had a terrific reputation and had spent a lifetime teaching advanced students. Every time I went I would be there for over 2 hours at the end of which she would ask me what I thought I should pay! Now she was easily worth $100 an hour which is around what I paid her. It was a lot of money but then I would only go once a month or even 6 weeks.

The biggest problem is finding a teacher like this. You may not have that many options. That's why I think you should start making enquiries and tracking them down. Once you find them the cost might be of secondary importance.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#1229962 - 07/11/09 08:56 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: lilylady]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7345
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Well, I'd go for it. For those who are newer to the forum, I'll rehash what Jane Tan did. One of our Seattle teachers had studied a pedagogy program with her down in Arizona, and wanted to continue, so at the MNTA convention a few years back, she enticed Jane to do a class, in which each student would get an hour private lesson, but others could observe, as everyone's problems are different, and we could learn how a really top teacher coped with a different variety of student issues.


Eventually, 16 of us signed up at $1,800 for 12 lessons, once a month. Of course, this "tuition" also covered Jane's hotel and travel expenses, and Steinway footed the bill for the classroom location.

Now, there are several "concert artist" level teachers living and working in Seattle, and I've given some thought to doing just what you're thinking of. Perhaps monthly "sessions" for a year with each of them, just to glean some different perspectives and ideas.

By the way, I had a class with Seymour Bernstein as part of Jane's program, and he was beyond amazing. He lives in your part of the country. You might check him out and see if he's still teaching (I'll bet he is).

Best of luck - you'll be so happy you did this.

John
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1229982 - 07/11/09 09:34 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: John v.d.Brook]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4977
Loc: boston north
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
By the way, I had a class with Seymour Bernstein as part of Jane's program, and he was beyond amazing. He lives in your part of the country. You might check him out and see if he's still teaching (I'll bet he is).
John


I had not heard of SB before.

I checked out a couple of websites. He has a studio in NYC. (5 hrs away)


http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/music/piano/people/faculty/bernstein

https://www.burtnco.com/Bernstein.a5w

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2493/is_6_54/ai_n13825592/

What is your teaching philosophy?

To make people feel good about themselves by helping them express their deepest emotions through music. It's a process of integrating feeling, thinking, sensory perception and physical coordination--all the requirements of a healthy, well-adjusted person. That's why productive practicing can lead towards an integration of the whole person.
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#1229986 - 07/11/09 09:44 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: lilylady]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Lilylady
You might consider reading Seymour Bernstein's books, not in lieu of a class of course. But I find them very interesting. His latest book "Monsters and Angels" offers fascinating details about life as a student, performer, teacher and many interesting teaching tips. It is a great read.
Another of his good books is "In your own two hands" (self-discovery through music). This book if more focused on technique, interpetaion and growth of a pianist while the first one is more biographical.

http://www.seymourbernstein.com/publications.html

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#1229990 - 07/11/09 09:52 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keyboardklutz]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
Believe it or not, when I taught in Japan, they told me I HAD to charge at least $250 per hour, otherwise, they would think I was not a good teacher. I was shocked--I wanted to charge $75. When I studied with Adele Marcus, she charged $65, then $75, and when I was at Juilliard, in 1980s, her private fee was $125.
I am now touring, teaching, recording, and consider myself in synch (or much less expensive) with my colleagues who also teach privately, in universities and in master classes. Having studied with Adele Marcus, and getting the results when people come to me as teachers, students, professional pianists looking to enhance their performance(s), I tried to find a fee that is acceptable for my level in the industry, and came up with the comparable rate, if not lower. I am always open to people studying with me sporadically, for whatever reasons. Everyone comes with a different reason and purpose for their lessons. The Skype fee is considered worldwide acceptable for what I offer.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1230044 - 07/11/09 01:13 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: John v.d.Brook]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
By the way, I had a class with Seymour Bernstein as part of Jane's program, and he was beyond amazing. He lives in your part of the country.


My favorite SB quote from a master class: "You're not walking to your execution!" He said it with a deadpan expression. I don't think the kids got it, though. Otherwise, he was very inspirational and compassionate as a teacher.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1230065 - 07/11/09 02:11 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: AZNpiano]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7345
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
That's a hoot! I don't believe he has a mean bone in his body. He is the definition of gentleness.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1230388 - 07/12/09 11:41 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: John v.d.Brook]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
Believe it or not, tennis teachers are commanding well over $100 per hour--it all depends on what you are looking for, and how well you know and respect the teacher you are seeking their advice from. It has always been a personal decision, and some teachers say what they need to in 5 minutes, others in 5 days. That is something each student needs to explore on their own and ask those who have studied with the person they are considering. What I loved about Adele Marcus is that she nailed the problems quickly and fixed them. That is my credo. I can tell in two measures what is going on--even online.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1230398 - 07/12/09 12:03 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13774
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Same with Golf pros.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1230543 - 07/12/09 05:55 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: Kreisler]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
I have colleagues charging MUCH more than $100 or $125--I think those who want to have some lessons with people like myself, should check around and see what other teachers are charging. You will be quite surprised. I've heard of as much as $750--indeed. I would never do such a thing.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1230779 - 07/13/09 07:13 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 4977
Loc: boston north
Jeffrey also freely gives tips and advice here on PW in the Pianist's Corner and on his Blog and website.

Surely a teacher/performer who enjoys music and what he is doing.

Thanks Jeffrey!
_________________________
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."

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#1230849 - 07/13/09 10:38 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
Seeker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 360
Loc: Rockville, MD
Originally Posted By: JBiegel
======SNIP===== When I studied with Adele Marcus, she charged $65, then $75, and when I was at Juilliard, in 1980s, her private fee was $125.====SNIP====
I tried to find a fee that is acceptable for my level in the industry, and came up with the comparable rate, if not lower. I am always open to people studying with me sporadically, for whatever reasons. Everyone comes with a different reason and purpose for their lessons. The Skype fee is considered worldwide acceptable for what I offer.

Hey Jeff - Please don't apologize for your rates! I don't know your work personally, but from what I've read about you, the accolades I've seen, considering your pianistic pedigree, your performing career and teaching expertise, your time is worth at LEAST $125/hr.

Consider this: According to WikiAnswers, In 2007, $1.00 from 1980 is worth:

$2.52 using the Consumer Price Index
$2.22 using the GDP deflator
$3.07 using the value of consumer bundle
$2.43 using the unskilled wage
$3.74 using the nominal GDP per capita
$4.95 using the relative share of GDP

Using those numbers, if you were charging what Adele charged you, ***adjusted for inflation***, you should be charging somewhere between $350 and $400 an hour to be compensated at the same rate!

Bottom line - you're worth it.
=====================================================
Regarding the OP's original question - what makes a (great) teacher worth the money, at least in my opinion, is a combination of things: how they play the piano (influenced in great part by their "pedigree", i.e., those with whom they have studied), their ability and experience as performers (though it can be argued that one can be a great teacher without being a great performer), and most important, how effective they are as a teacher FOR YOU - something I believe can only be determined by a trial lesson.
==================================================
And a final thought on fees and pricing: In my own case I have a set of "usual and customary rates" for my services as an accompanist, coach, teacher or performer. But I also have an "exception policy" where I will offer scholarships, discounted fees, deferred fees, or even work "pro bono" depending on a particular set of circumstances. I'd do what I need to do to pay for a least a single session full price before broaching any issues of financial need with a teacher; it's more respectful that way. But if you've got the passion, the need and the talent, you might be surprised how many people would be willing to meet you part way on the financial thing.
_________________________
Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")

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#1231218 - 07/14/09 12:30 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keyboardklutz]
Roxy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Whittier, Calif
Well all of you sound like "hobby teachers" to me. I just read an ad from Ontario Canada. We are just not real teachers here in the U.S. This teacher in Canada is charging $500. an hour over the phone for a lesson. Where have we gone wrong? And those of us that can't teach one lesson and have the student understand and play the piano in that hour are only "hobby teachers". If you want the teacher to come to you, he/she will come to you for 5- 2 hour lessons for only $8,000.00 Such a deal. Of course you must practice 8 hours a day while taking, to make the lessons of the most benefit. How anyone has 10 hours a day to devote to the lesson and practice time both, I haven't quite figured out yet, but then what do I know, my lessons haven't reached the $500 mark yet. Just thought all you teachers out there might need something to strive for, why think $100 when you can think $500? Hope you enjoyed reading about this ad as much as I did. From one "hobby teacher" to another.

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#1231245 - 07/14/09 01:47 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: John v.d.Brook]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
I sense an underlying murmur of disapproval for teachers receiving $100 per hour or more. I wonder how many have calculated what a classroom teacher or college professor receives per teaching hour, say an individual with 20 or more years of experience. Note, not what they get paid per hour of work, but per hour of teaching. Obviously, these are generally group lesson situations, so the cost is shared by many.
No murmuring here, that's a perfecly acceptable price for a good teacher. It's just the Skype thing - how ever good the intentions, I can't see the student getting their money's worth.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1231260 - 07/14/09 02:32 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keyboardklutz]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4776
Loc: South Florida
If you have a really good video set up, both ways, and microphones are set up so that the sound is reasonably good, the big disadvantage I see to not "being there" is that you can't guide anything physically.

It's also very hard to see, either way, from a variety of angles.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#1231292 - 07/14/09 07:14 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: Gary D.]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Lilylady,

I don't think it's uncommon at all. And yes, I think it's based on accomplishments. It's usually the best tool to measure someone's talent, his accomplishments.

So if the teacher has taught in a prestigious school of music for 20 years, and performed either with celebrities, or he is a celebrity on his own, then you can expect to pay big bucks. Because he's showing both skills in teaching and performing. And usually students seek them out rather than the other way around.

It would often be non-recurring lessons. Just a matter of getting on one's calendar. For example, Oscar Peterson used to teach private lessons. Many people would easily blow a couple thousand for an hour with him.

As for the "Skype thing", it's hard to figure the "money's worth" part of the equation, because it's only music after all. But I do the "Skype thing", and I really like it. I used to drive miles to get to a variety of teachers, in the middle of the week because I have kids keeping me busy nights & weekends. That time is time I do not charge to my own client, and I charge a lot.
So cost wise, the drive alone gets me my money back, probably 6 times over.
Having said that, I also enjoy the lessons a lot. But I do not consider myself a total beginner, we don't do finger position, posture and all that. Also, it's jazz, so it's a lot of theory, talk, analysis.
My son wanted to do it with her cello teacher who left town, but that would absolutely not work.
For piano students doing non-classical music, it's quite good.

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#1231758 - 07/15/09 12:37 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: knotty]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
Keyboardklutz and Gary--I can see your point--especially if you have teachers who are not quite equipped to understand how to fix things physically--look it, if a good teacher can see and fix problems in the flesh, they should be able to do it over Skype. I used to have great phone lessons with Adele Marcus, and have given many too. You just have to do your research and make sure the teacher is good no matter what. If you know what you're doing, you know what you're doing. I'm certainly not defending myself as a teacher, but in the future, more teachers will do this. Technology moves on and we move with it. But with this, we must know what we are dealing with. Do your research.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1231771 - 07/15/09 01:24 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
There are a million and one things that need doing to ensure an effortless technique. Lesson after lesson some students never get it. Interpretation you could certainly manage over the net but the rest?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1231844 - 07/15/09 07:58 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keyboardklutz]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
In the You Tube video demo of Skype teaching, I helped Matt with the thirds in the LH of Beethoven Opus 10, no. 3. I would feel very comfortable fixing technical challenges in the same way. I taught a Singaporean pianist online how to do the diminished seventh stretching exercises, as well as to Matt and his teacher. Be it in a studio or online, anything can be taught if it is done correctly. The apparatus changes, but the lesson remains the same.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1231887 - 07/15/09 10:13 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1439
Loc: Australia
As a Skype user, I find the recent posts interesting.
It is relatively easy to use multiple cameras with Skype.
I use two, for guitar lessons, so that I can focus on each hand (by switching between the two). Together with a little remote control for zooming, pretty well all aspects can be covered.

Once the initial feeling of the Skype experience being a relatively hi-tech way of communicating, has worn off, it is more like teaching someone with a pane of glass between teacher and student.

It takes a little while to get used to, and for both parties to feel at ease, but a valuable tool, nonetheless.

Edited to add:
I would have no hesitation, in paying the going rate for advanced tuition, or instuction in a particular technique, using Skype, or any other method.





Edited by R0B (07/15/09 10:25 AM)
_________________________
Rob

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#1231953 - 07/15/09 12:16 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: JBiegel
Be it in a studio or online, anything can be taught if it is done correctly. The apparatus changes, but the lesson remains the same.
Sorry, no way I can go with that one.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1232256 - 07/15/09 10:58 PM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keyboardklutz]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
You don't know until you try.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#1232311 - 07/16/09 02:26 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
cruiser Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1171
Loc: Cornwall, England
Originally Posted By: JBiegel
You don't know until you try.


kbk, how about giving it a try with me?! ...once I've discovered what 'Skype' is, of course! smile

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#1232360 - 07/16/09 07:48 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: JBiegel]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11648
Loc: Canada
Jeffrey, would you ever deal with beginners? In the physical part of instruction you would need not only see the person, but different angles, and perhaps have them see you too? I've been told of masterclasses that involved a sophisticated set of cameras operated over a distance by remote control. The teacher could swivel or zoom the camera in the students' classroom, while the same could be done with the camera at the teacher's premises. The screen would have picture-in-picture (which Skype also gives). But if you have only a videocam, then you have it fixed at one angle and distance. I imagine that for beginners you'd have to see the person from head to toe and for them to do likewise (?)


Edited by keystring (07/16/09 07:50 AM)

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#1232367 - 07/16/09 07:58 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: keystring]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13774
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I haven't tried it, but I'm guessing that Skype would work well for older beginners. For children, however, distance learning hasn't proven particularly successful - it's difficult to keep them engaged without a physical presence.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1232371 - 07/16/09 08:17 AM Re: I wonder WHO can charge $100 plus an hour [Re: Kreisler]
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
If the webcam is situated to see you sit at the piano where I can see your posture, hand position etc, it is best. In my humble opinion, playing around with the cameras and zooming etc, is a time taker, and I don't need to zoom in on anything to see what I need to see and fix what needs to be fixed. I believe the attention should not be on the cameras, the zooming or the technology. It should be treated as though it is a regular lesson, using the technology to make it happen. No ribbons and bows, just keep it simple. When you start zooming and doing things that focus on the video, it takes away from the flow of the lesson. It should seem as though there is no Skype, no webcam etc. Just headphones and a laptop with Skype. Yes, I could teach a beginner this way.


Edited by JBiegel (07/16/09 08:17 AM)
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