|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
79 members (AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, Abdulrohmanoman, accordeur, 19 invisible),
2,267
guests, and
433
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
4000 Post Club Member
|
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264 |
With sincere respect Damon,
At 50 years of age (excuse a look at your profile) you’re more than ready for anno Domini insight into the Brahms legacy ... only with the years does the majesty of Brahms works filter through ... with 20 years on you, soaking up the marvels of Johannes B , I continue to be completely stopped in my tracks by the breathtaking 4 Symphonies ... but this morning on our local ClassicFm radio channel the host played the slow movement to the Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto ... and so rightly mused "it is as if the world stood still".
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 959
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 959 |
2. The 'Brahms vs Wagner/Liszt' controversy was fed mainly by Wagner, who persisted in writing nasty articles about Brahms' music. Brahms was a bit mystified by this because he admired Wagner's work. There is even a story of him planning a trip to Bayreuth, but calling it off at the last minute because he was afraid Wagner would use Brahms' presence as an excuse for further attacks on Brahms' adherence to 'absolute music' (as distinct from 'tone poems'). Wagner would not have attacked Brahms as virulently as he did if he had not recognized a threat to his claim to be the preeminent composer of his day. (Wagner was notoriously a tad short on compassion, but rather long on ego.) There's no doubt that there were many polemic attacks from the side of Wagner. But note that Brahms, in 1860, was the first of four authors of a highly polemic "declaration" against the Neudeutsche Schule in a Berlin newspaper called Echo. The other party responded (smartly) with a witty parody of this declaration in the "Neue Zeitschrift für Musik". As a consequence there was a public perception of Brahms as conservative and aggressive. Apparently Brahms considered his prominent participation in this declaration as a big mistake and would never again want to be associated with a particular "school" afterwards.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I would suggest that much of Brahms' music seems to lack spontaneity; there is a well-crafted, almost studied feel to some of Brahms' piano works…. Bruce, could you elaborate? I don't understand how lack of spontaneity—an inherent characteristic of all non-improvised music—distinguishes Brahms's music in particular; it seems to me that your comments could apply equally to the music of most any great composer. Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093 |
Funnily, I'm listening to the Brahms symphony 2 as I write. The lady doth protest too much, methinks, incredibly written music, but so utterly dull and impotent. There is a certain smugness about Brahms which really puts me off. I really think you hit it on the head with your statement on Brahms. I do enjoy his works now more so then when I was a younger, but a lot of times it does seem dull. And the smugness you are talking about is definitely there. When he was told he was the next Beethoven he took it to seriously. I have played Brahms a lot, but every time his music feels like a chore except for op. 118 and the Piano concerto in D minor. I do enjoy his sonatas and wish I had time to learn one. Though I did not have the same reaction to other German romantic composers when I started listening to them more. I can't get enough of the music of Mendellssohn and Schumann!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I'm as perplexed by smugness as I am by lack of spontaneity, and equally uncertain how it is conveyed or revealed in music.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 204 |
Brahms is truly a great composer. His large scale orchestral works (such as his 4 symphonies, 2 piano concerti, violin concerto, and double concerto) are among the greatest works in their genres ever composed. His variations on a theme by Haydn are my favorite set of variations written for orchestra. Two other favorites of mine are his variations and fugue on a theme of Handel and his piano quintet in F minor.
Others have commented on several of his shorter works for piano as well as the sonatas. His larger works for piano such as the 2 piano concerti, variations and fugue on a theme by Handel, and sonatas are extremely difficult to play.
It is fairly common on this forum to find many critical remarks of the greatest composers who ever lived. Mozart’s music has been criticized as being too simplistic. Bach has been criticized as being boring. Liszt is often criticized as being superficial, etc. No matter how good your music is, there will be a vocal contingent critical of it. Perhaps this reflects the diversity of musical tastes that people have. Ultimately, the number (and particularly the high percentage; all of his symphonies and concerti are masterpieces. This is at least in part the result of how self critical Brahms was in the pieces he chose to publish) of large scale works Brahms wrote that have become part of the standard repertoire and the high regard that exists for these works speak for themselves.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093 |
I'm as perplexed by smugness as I am by lack of spontaneity, and equally uncertain how it is conveyed or revealed in music.
Steven Do you believe music can convey emotions such as love, loss, anger, sadness ect ect. Do you believe that music can convey things even about the composer? If so it is not much of a stretch to believe what I am saying, but to each his own. In the end we should continue to critique these master works. Not only will it lead to greater appreciation of some, but will lead to new discoveries as well. Jeffrey
Last edited by jdhampton924; 07/12/09 03:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,909
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,909 |
I'm as perplexed by smugness as I am by lack of spontaneity, and equally uncertain how it is conveyed or revealed in music.
Steven I am not sure why you should be perplexed by what others feel or hear in the music of Brahms, or, specifically by the "smugness" or "lack of spontaneity" that others have mentioned in his (piano) works. Are these not subjective reactions to his music, and do not many of us react differently to others to the same piece of music, the same work of literature, a given painting or sculpture? Little of what has been said so far has been totally objective - how objective can one be in talking about one's reactions to music - so it should be neither surprising nor perplexing that we all do not share the same reactions. As for elaborating on my feeling that the Brahms music I know often lacks a character that I called spontaneity - in response to Andromaque's questioning "lack of inspiration" - I don't have sufficient verbal skills to put that thought into more precise language; it's a feeling, a reaction to Brahms' music that I can't articulate. There's a certain gravitas, a seriousness, a complexity and a formality of structure that all perhaps stem, in part, from the relatively thick texture of his writing that precludes - for me - a sense of ... what's the right word? I'm at a loss for the precise expression, but "lack of spontaneity" is the closest I can come. Rather than adding more of what his music does not have, perhaps I could add that his music strikes me has having a strong "introspective" character. As I said before, however, for me that is not a criticism of Brahms, that's just what makes Brahms' music distinctively his own. There are soulful melodies, clever - often brilliant - interplays of voices, a rich harmonic palette and an often intriguing use of rhythmic patterns that distinguish the music of Brahms from that of other composers. Nor would I deny that he is one of "the greats." Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
Jeffrey,
Those are very interesting questions. My uncertainties about the answers, and my wish to understand the underlying issues better, makes we want to start a new thread about the topic of emotions in music.
Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
3000 Post Club Member
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886 |
what BruceD says..
I also could not find a precise term to describe my reaction(s) to some of Brahms' music. This is not to say that it is devoid of beauty and appeal. he is like a gorgeous sophisticated creature or painting that does not speak my language or, that does not convey a direction or resolution. A famous poem by Charles Baudelaire ends with a verse that describes my state of affairs after listening to a complex work by Brahms 'sometimes': La toile était levée et j'attendais encore Which translates a bit awkwardly into something like : the curtain had risen and I was still waiting. Music is subjective!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746
6000 Post Club Member
|
OP
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,746 |
With sincere respect Damon,
At 50 years of age (excuse a look at your profile) That's why it's there. you’re more than ready for anno Domini insight into the Brahms legacy ... only with the years does the majesty of Brahms works filter through ... with 20 years on you, soaking up the marvels of Johannes B , I continue to be completely stopped in my tracks by the breathtaking 4 Symphonies ... but this morning on our local ClassicFm radio channel the host played the slow movement to the Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto ... and so rightly mused "it is as if the world stood still". Purely happenstance that I was listening to that very piece while reading this forum. I don't remember the last time I was so emotionally moved by a piece of music. How music that I considered "aimless meandering" yesterday caused me to cry today is beyond my ability to explain.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 15
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 15 |
Though I did not have the same reaction to other German romantic composers when I started listening to them more. I can't get enough of the music of Mendellssohn and Schumann! it is a mistake to call Brahms a romantic, as he belongs to the Classical school. this does not mean however that he was not imaginative. and as we all know (or most of us), classicalism is an art that is (i) a formal discipline, (ii) model of excellence, supplemented by (iii) that which has to do with Greek or Latin antiquity; or as most people learn from basic music reference books, a form of art in which there is "control and balance" the classical composers work on a purely musical basis, while the romanticists include some external non-musical factor as the emotional basis of their work generally the mass believes any composer after Beethoven and before Wagner is "romantic". this is not true of course. the "progressives", or the majority of composers after Beethoven's death were all of the romantic persuasion, and this continued to be the case until Brahms appeared and returned to the apparently obsolete methods of Beethoven, producing "pure music"
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,565
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,565 |
it is a mistake to call Brahms a romantic, as he belongs to the Classical school. this does not mean however that he was not imaginative.
and as we all know (or most of us), classicalism is an art that is (i) a formal discipline, (ii) model of excellence, supplemented by (iii) that which has to do with Greek or Latin antiquity; or as most people learn from basic music reference books, a form of art in which there is "control and balance"
the classical composers work on a purely musical basis, while the romanticists include some external non-musical factor as the emotional basis of their work
generally the mass believes any composer after Beethoven and before Wagner is "romantic". this is not true of course. the "progressives", or the majority of composers after Beethoven's death were all of the romantic persuasion, and this continued to be the case until Brahms appeared and returned to the apparently obsolete methods of Beethoven, producing "pure music"
I always thought Romantic/Classical etc. dealt with the time period mostly but I understand what you're getting at. For fun there is this link which I found today: http://web.mit.edu/ckcheung/www/MusicalWritings_files/Brahms_NoteOnOp60_web_20041205.pdf
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163
6000 Post Club Member
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,163 |
I'm as perplexed by smugness as I am by lack of spontaneity, and equally uncertain how it is conveyed or revealed in music.
Steven I am not sure why you should be perplexed by what others feel or hear in the music of Brahms, or, specifically by the "smugness" or "lack of spontaneity" that others have mentioned in his (piano) works. Are these not subjective reactions to his music, and do not many of us react differently to others to the same piece of music, the same work of literature, a given painting or sculpture? Little of what has been said so far has been totally objective - how objective can one be in talking about one's reactions to music - so it should be neither surprising nor perplexing that we all do not share the same reactions…. Bruce, I think that my perplexed state is prosaic: I simply don't understand how something like smugness is conveyed or revealed or perceived in music. I can stretch my imagination to include a whole laundry list of attributes that people might find in, or feel from, music, and smugness is beyond my ken. So when I say I'm perplexed that someone finds smugness in music, that's my own subjective reaction to someone's subjective reaction. Obviously, people do react in a surprised and perplexed manner to something—however subjective we know it to be—that comes as a complete surprise. Thanks for clarifying about spontaneity, although it still eludes me—again, my subjective reaction—how any non-improvised music could be anything other than non-spontaneous. Perhaps it just attests to my own musical illiteracy and lack of sophistication that I would never in a million years characterize any classical music as smug or lacking in spontaneity. And just as there's nothing wrong with anyone holding that opinion, I can't see what's amiss with saying that I, personally and subjectively, find it unusual, surprising and perplexing. I don't quite get it.
The OP asked for opinions on the works of Brahms. Some people expressed their opinions and then others criticize them for voicing those opinions. Is this not an open forum for expressing opinions? Do all opinions have to agree, otherwise they are considered invalid?
Regards, So why do I feel that my opinion is somehow invalid? Is this not an open forum for expressing opinions about opinions as well? Steven
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
Quote by music critic Cecil Gray: "There is no great figure in the history of music who has not in some way or other contributed substantially to the enrichment and expansion of the art, with the possible exception of Brahms, and it it precisely for that reason that many people feel that he is not one of the first rank. He is, you might say, one who has received a vast inheritance which he has handed on to his successors undiminished, perhaps, but also unincreased. The history of music would be the same in all essentials if Brahms had never lived; one cannot say the same of any other great composer-- certainly least of all Bach."
I guess it depends on one's definition of a "great composer."
Certainly the same statement could be applied to other 19th century composers such as Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Liszt, Wagner, and (gasp) even Chopin. If any one of them had not lived, "the history of music would be the same in all essentials" - although we would have been deprived of amazing musical literature that has enriched our lives. They all built upon the legacies of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,806
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,806 |
I don't think the history of music would have been the same without Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Berlioz, Liszt, Wagner, or Chopin. Just because they may have built on the legacies of Bach, Beethoven etc. doesn't mean they didn't make major contributions to the history of Western music.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
Per Anne with Numbers: "......and this continued to be the case until Brahms appeared and returned to the apparently obsolete methods of Beethoven, producing "pure music."
Anne - All of the great "romantic" composers produced their fair share of "pure" music which followed "classical" forms.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 15
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 15 |
what forms are you talking about? the "sonata allegro" form is not a classical form, if that's what you're implying
whether or not those composers composed pieces in the classical style, which is extremely rare, they all belong to the romantic school as they composed strictly following the style of that "school". a school that lacked the powers to organize their ideas through the means of a nice sense of proportion, but composed by an intense desire to make their music intelligible by connecting it with the outside world. in fact to make in some sense a "criticism of life"
possibly why people think Brahms is "smug" is that his music is too "formal", his music is not driven by "emotions" but by music itself
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093
1000 Post Club Member
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,093 |
Though I did not have the same reaction to other German romantic composers when I started listening to them more. I can't get enough of the music of Mendellssohn and Schumann! it is a mistake to call Brahms a romantic, as he belongs to the Classical school. this does not mean however that he was not imaginative. By that line of thought, I would argue Mendelssohn is also from the classical school. I should clarify, when I refer to romantics, I am usually refering to a time period and not compositional style. I mean it would be a mistake to imply that he did not have imagination. Or that anyone from the classical school didn't. I mean we wouldn't say the same thing of Beethoven, Haydn or Mozart.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
Per Anne with Numbers: "what forms are you talking about? the "sonata allegro" form is not a classical form, if that's what you're implying"
whether or not those composers composed pieces in the classical style, which is extremely rare, they all belong to the romantic school as they composed strictly following the style of that "school". a school that lacked the powers to organize their ideas through the means of a nice sense of proportion, but composed by an intense desire to make their music intelligible by connecting it with the outside world. in fact to make in some sense a "criticism of life"
possibly why people think Brahms is "smug" is that his music is too "formal", his music is not driven by "emotions" but by music itself _____________________________________________________
I'm not sure I know how to respond to your broad generalizations - although I think I understand what you are trying to say. Just out of curiousity - why do you believe that the "sonata allegro" form was not a classical form?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|