I'm sorry I had to ask this one (didnt find any answer with the search tool)

Well, everywhere I see people talking about piano, they all say that learning alone will give terrible habits. Habits that you have to unlearn as soon as possible.

But I dont really understand what kind of habits could be that bad. I assume it's about fingering (especially because my fingering is kinda awkward), but, I dunno..

Could someone clearly explain why is it so important to have a teacher ? What is the risk ? (I mean precisely please)

I'm also teaching myself. Today we have the Internet, what better teacher! You can watch and learn through You Tube... And it's free!

Right! well i've had a teacher for 7-8 months, played quite long hours, he didn't pay attention to techniique, and we were "progressing" quickly ...
Guess what ... INJURY. My right hand aches even if i'm ot playing, i have a new teacher that has told me to restart from zero ... I now cannot play more tha an hour a day.
Piano can be very agressive with your hands if practiced intensely and without supervision. Take it slow, and if you can, get a teacher, and a good one at that.

I learn Joe Hisaishi - Spirited Away (Inochi no namae) myself without supervision and this is my first time start practice without knowing how to read notes. So far I almost completing master the score.

If you know how to play, research and overcome your technical difficulty, you are a teacher of your own learning.

Well, not trying to scare you, but the worst case scenario would be that you would be unable to play at all, and the problems could possibly impact other parts of your life - pain, repetitive stress injuries, carpal tunnel, and focal dystonia all come to mind.

As far as where the problems could occur: posture, tension, improper use of your body, rhythm problems, unevenness of tone, and fingering all come to mind. I'm sure the teachers can come up with a much longer list of problems that they have seen.

First, you can't see how you are playing. We are too focused on the process of playing to really pay attention, we don't know what clues to look for, and it takes someone watching us play to locate many of these problems.

Second, when you do develop a bad habit, it takes at least 10 times as long to fix the habit as it does to develop it in the first place.

I am learning without a teacher at the present, but as soon as I have the time and the money I am going to find a good teacher. To keep from learning any bad habits, I read all I can about technique, relaxation, posture, etc., and I pay very careful attention to these things when I practice.

But I know that I will avoid those habits and learn faster with the help of a good teacher. Most of us who really want to play well will benefit immensely from that second pair of eyes and ears.

Thanks to all

of course thanks dragonpiano for the precise answer (and kinda scary indeed, but that's how reality is)

well I'm already playing bwv999 at maximum bpm so I guess I might be in danger (and I play a lot)

I'll look for a teacher next september then.
I hope that the first 3 months of self-learning wont be that bad when I'll see the teacher

I don't think that it's necessarily BAD to learn without a teacher, especially if you already know how to read music and understand the fundamentals. However, I think that same thing that makes piano endlessly fascinating for every pianist is the very thing that makes first starting out on the piano very frustrating.

I think that a very good instructor can limit the overwhelming choices of what to learn first and speed your progress through those sometimes tedious fundamentals. I think that folks that learn well on their own are people who study/read a lot on the side already. Learning something new is frankly hard often frustrating work and working with a teacher helps alleviate unnecessary struggle.

IMHO most of us will not develop bad habits that will harm us that much. If it hurts, this is supposed to be fun - stop when it hurts.

No question one on one instruction will always be one of the better options. IF you can 1) find an instructor that is qualified and 2) will teach what you want to learn. A lot of things have changed in the last few years.

University classes are now offered via the Internet. An instructor's lectures are transmitted to several campuses via the Internet. Instructional DVD's and workbooks now make self study an economical option. One feature that is missing is instant feedback.

This forum allows the adult student the ability to discuss and receive feedback. Which is one of the fundamental wants in adult education.

Some of the Internet classes now offer forum discussion with the instructor dropping in with comments.

Times are changing ...........

Are you using a technique set of books? If so, there should be fingerings in there. I think if you've come up with your own fingerings for scales, you'll have an issue relearning that, but there are so many web sites with info on stuff like that. I do think that if you're learning on your own you need a good book or use a good web site.

The other important thing is to have good posture and hand position so you don't injure yourself.

I don't think you're going to harm yourself studying on your own. With a really good teacher, you'll make progress faster, but on the other hand, a bad teacher won't do much for you.

An inexpensive way to learn is with a college beginner keyboard class if your community college offers them, and most do. I know in our community we have a fee waiver for low income students or families and it costs nearly nothing.

There you could learn some of the basics, get a good piano book, and get some ideas. You'd probably get to play some simple pieces in a student recital too.

Otherwise, I do think that beginner piano lessons for an adult or older teen aren't critical as they are for a child.

thanks it is very instructive

actually I do not play any scale or exercises.. I go straight forward to the pieces I like (and that means Bach lol), and there is no fingering so I have to improvise (btw I know how to read a sheet, I was a drummer, its not the same thing but I can manage)

as I said in another topic, I have blisters on my fingers, so it appears Im the guy who will develop bad habits
and Im kinda curved on the keyboard

but ok I will definitely look for a teacher after the summer

I had lessons for 2 years in my mid-teens, and then didn't play for ~ 30 years. I've not had a teacher since then, but I've certainly been learning a lot.

I think the worst bad habit is tension (tenseness), which can lead to tendonitis/tennis elbow, or aches and pains in ones wrists, fingers, palm of the hand, etc. I will have to say, however, that my original teacher didn't address any of that stuff, so it didn't help. What *did* help is that I've played a lot of sports, and I dance, so I am physically aware of my body and how it works, and I know very well that tension inhibits speed, coordination, and, in the case of piano, musicality. So I do use this forum and other musicians as sources of information and models for how to play from a physical standpoint. I know the teachers here are pretty insistent that a good teacher will help to avoid that, but I frankly think that teachers who can help to avoid that are not in the majority. I may be flamed for that but I've had some "lessons" from teachers since I re-started and none of them said a word. And it's not because I was perfect.

So, I think the fingering, reading notes, good practice habits, listening, playing music you like, etc, *can* be learned without formal lessons, from a myriad of sources. And there are people here on these forums who are doing so. I think the body awareness is extremely important, but I think it can be learned from sources besides formal piano lessons, if one is responsible for ones self.

In the end, whether one learns with or without formal lessons comes down to personality, at least to me. For some of us a lot of the fun is in the discovery process as well as the playing, and we learn in a different way than formal lessons allow. For others, the base put down by formal lessons is what gives them the wings for later. For some, the progress markers they get from working toward specific formal goals, with or without a teacher, gives them great satisfaction. We're all different.

YMMV -

Cathy

I played for years as a kid, my first college major was music ed (which is about teaching classroom music not piano pedagogy, although piano was my main instrument)...I have returned to piano for over a year after 20 years of not playing. I play advanced level music. I play well enough that people have asked me to teach their kids (not meaning to sound immodest...I sound OK to the average person).

Not only would I not consider teaching others...I have a teacher and would not consider not having one. Once I decided to start playing again the first thing I did was find a good teacher.

Why? I can play better, learn music faster, and improve the music so much more with a teacher than without. I want someone who will watch me for bad habits that will limit or even damage my ability to play. I want someone who knows stuff I don't so I can improve my skills.

Some people will say they don't want a teacher because they "only want to play for fun"...well, I personally think that playing well is fun (about the most fun you can have with your clothes on), and not playing well is not fun at all.

Many of the errors concerning posture and technique are unknown by the student playing the piano.

And, even if known, which is unlikely, those errors are typically not noticed by the student as he or she plays.

I have posted before about how there are similarities between playing the piano and playing golf, in that you can have a perfect set of golf clubs, study books and videos on how to hold and swing those clubs, and still be off in some degree unknown and/or unnoticed by you so that your game is hindered, and you could possibly injure youself.

That is a major reason why a teacher, functioning as an outside observer who knows what to look for, is essential for good progress at the piano.

You cannot get a book or website to do that for you.

When I picked up piano, I considered self-teaching for a while but thankfully, someone referred me to a teacher and I'm glad I went that route. I knew the basics of music theory and I did have lessons for a very short while when I was younger so I didn't start from scratch, but having a teacher helped a lot. When you're starting out, your attention is centered on just playing the right notes so there so many things that you could miss that a teacher can point out and correct. Some things : correct rhythm? Correct counting? Correct accentation of the beat? Loud left hand? Unless one has been exposed to music and piano for most of his life, I doubt those are things that can be noticed and picked out easily.

But aside from that, one thing I like best with having a teacher is that it gives me discipline and momentum. Some method book pieces I would've given myself a pass still need polishing up for my teacher. I refine the piece more until I actually hear a semblance of musicality in my playing My weekly lessons give structure to my learning too : I set personal goals for the week, like polishing and getting a pass on X piece working on a new X piece at a performance level for my teacher, etc. It's nice having a critic to evaluate your playing. When I get a pass on a piece, it's only then that I can confidently say that I can play it decently

I sort of find self-teaching to be much more efficient, at least for me. Because of my distinctive learning methods, I have never been able to collaborate well with an instructor. My prior experiences with instructor have resulted in disinterest for playing as well as schooling in general.

I am currently in the process of teaching myself now that I have coextensive equipment. Eventually I probably have a professional evaluate me once I excel to a level worth judging for further suggestions.

In my opinion, you cannot pick up bad habits when teaching
yourself, because when you teach yourself, you will naturally
learn in the way that best suits your individual physiology
and psychology. Pianists pick up bad habits in formal
piano lessons, because when you take lessons, you will
have to learn in the teacher's way, which is his way
of playing, not yours. And when you try to do something
in someone else's way instead of your own way, that's
the worst kind of bad habit you can have.

I had nine yrs. of classical lessons as child from
5 reputable teachers, and during those 9 yrs. I
accummulated so many bad habits that eventually
I had to quit, because I could make no progress.
When I restarted as an adult 20 yrs. later, I found
that in order to progress I had to throw out
every last thing I was taught and develop a way
of playing that suited my own physiology and psychology.
Till this day I am ever vigilant of any previously learned
ways of playing showing up in my technique, and if
I detect any, they are immediately removed.

Do you know how to stand? How to sit? How to walk? Then OK, you can teach yourself.

I never had any injury problem until I started college. I had a pretty good teacher in high school and I improved pretty fast. I started having major tendonitis problem once I started college. Looking back I realized that those teachers were teaching bad habits and playing tense because a habit for me. It took years and years to undo the damage.

I looked for a classical piano teacher around the time I was finishing college. I didn't get to study with him for long because my tendonitis became really bad, but it was very invaluable.. he really showed me how to practice.

So in my opinion, a teacher can be very helpful if you can find a good one.. but you're better off studying on your own than having a bad teacher.

The bottom line is that no teacher is better than having a really bad one.

This is why so many people prefer to teach themselves. They have had horrendously bad experiences with totally incompetent teachers, some of whom are equally nasty.

On the other hand, I have never spoken to any pianist who was lucky enough to find a really good teacher who did not feel the teacher was of enormous benefit.

There is a famous saying: "A man who represents himself has a fool for a client."

If you choose to teach yourself piano if you have the money for lessons and the opportunity to study with a really good teacher, then you have a fool for student.

Hey Albany, good question. I find myself agreeing with just about every post so far, as the answers depend on your goals and desires.

If you want to play with technical precision and at the highest level possible with your skillset and talent, then a teacher is an absolute must, IMHO.

If your goal is to just have fun, play what you like from various styles and gendres, and are not concerned with "building a foundation for the next level", and you have common sense (stop if/when it hurts), and have a source for help once in a while, then self-teaching is certainly a viable option.

I happen to be self-teaching. I am not worried at all about posture and "correct hand position" as I do not care if I ever reach level whatever. I want to play what I like, and if I hit a barrier, then I ask for help here. I will never be asked to play on stage, and if by some error of the universe I were, I would politely decline. Not what interests me.

So, to answer your question, precicely, my opinion is there is very little danger in teaching yourself IF you understand you may have to relearn some things and you have enough self-control to stop if/when it hurts. A good teacher will help you learn "correctly" and you will more likely advance faster with help and guidance than without.

I like to say that learning a musical instrument without a teacher is like making love by yourself. It just misses the point.

But I won't say that, it gets folks riled up.

I don't believe that the importance of a teacher is limited to the question of bad or good habits.

It is above all a question of musicality.

What is written on a score is only the beginning. There is as much or more that is not written and that you will never start to approach or even imagine without a teacher.

This is not only true for a major work, but for the most simple and basic music as will.

The role of a teacher is above all to transmit a musical capital.

My take on this is that if you have never had lessons with a teacher, then you should probably try it. At least then you can form a more educated opinion whether lessons are for you.

In my case, I took lessons as a teenager and majored in music education in college, but my instrument was clarinet and I hoped to become a high school band director. Didn't work out.

Thirty-something years later I started piano again and took a few months of lessons before stopping. Why did I stop the lessons? I have enough confidence in my own abilities and judgment that I think I can progress well enough without a teacher. My goal is to play an hour a day after work to unwind, to learn some of the old standard classical works, to learn to play the blues, and to have fun. I think I can do that without a teacher's help. But if I did not have the musical background that I do, and the years of lessons as a teenager and young adult, I would not be able to make much progress on my own.

I have discovered (during my relatively short time playing the piano) that even playing a single note is an extremely complex task from a biomechanical perspective, there are simply so many ways to do it. You can alter the position of your arms and wrist. You can let your finger fall on the key or you can push the key etc. Poor technique may lead to sloppy playing or injuries.

I would recommend taking lessons to begin with from the best teacher possible to set you on the right track. After that... well Roger Federer doesn't even have a coach anymore!

Teacher or coach? Now that throws another light on the subject ...

I "learned" some hatha yoga from a number of books. When I got some live teaching/coaching I discovered that much of what I was doing needed correction.

I tried, and failed, several times to learn a new TaiChi form from books and videos. I failed - there was simply too much to think about to be able to observe myself working through the form while staying relaxed and breathing properly.

Maybe somebody can do it, but I, as an experienced performer, coach and teacher, am not capable of making a video that can give you everything I would provide you in a first lesson at the piano (or a 2nd or a 3rd, etc, for that matter). I don't think it's possible.

So - IMO - if you want to learn to play the piano properly, find a teacher and take some lessons. Learn how to sit at the piano, how to produce a musical sound with the least amount of tension. If you want to go off on your own after that, you'll have some chance of doing it without injuring yourself through improper technique.

Heck - even Mozart had lessons! Last time I checked, I thought he was probably more talented than all of us put together.

"Do you know how to stand? How to sit? How to walk? Then OK, you can teach yourself."

It's only because of my physical therapist that I know how to sit properly. But I cheat, and it shows in the small of my back every morning when I get out of bed. I developed BAD HABITS because I never understood my own basic body mechanics. Now, I might be different from other people, because I'm naturally very flexible. But I learned that only by injuring myself through long misuse of my back muscles.

Translate that to piano playing: If you have the discipline to teach yourself, you may do well. But if you develop problems, get a good teacher to help.

And as far as discipline: I took the summer off from lessons and have been doing some work on my own. I have learned that the weekly lessons require more of me than working on my own. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I were beyond the advanced beginner stage. Only you can know how you feel about your skills.

I completely agree with this. I am currently learning a very simple Scarlatti sonata and have only been playing 11 months. I watched Youtube videos of the performance, checked wikipedia and Google for baroque ornamentations and downloaded 2 different editions of the score. And still, within 10 minutes of talking, my teacher was able to convey so much more about the musical content and how to convey it with your playing that I felt borderline embarrassed by how much my playing was missing before that, even though I did pretty much everything that's printed in the score.

Also, the entire lesson, we devised ways of relaxing my playing to very substantially improve the tone I was producing. I just don't hear how "bad" my tones sound when playing since I'm so engrossed in the notes...

Of course, no one forces you to take a teacher, and you can greatly enjoy the experience without one.

I can think of one good reason to have a teacher - a second (and more experienced) set of ears.

Often times, a piece sounds perfect to me at home, only to find out the many shortcomings of it at my lesson. My ears have had a year of training. My teacher's have had 40 years. They can hear things in a way a beginner cannot.

Finally someone who knows that they don't know! And how do they know that?