I'm sorry I had to ask this one (didnt find any answer with the search tool)

Well, everywhere I see people talking about piano, they all say that learning alone will give terrible habits. Habits that you have to unlearn as soon as possible.

But I dont really understand what kind of habits could be that bad. I assume it's about fingering (especially because my fingering is kinda awkward), but, I dunno..

Could someone clearly explain why is it so important to have a teacher ? What is the risk ? (I mean precisely please)

I'm also teaching myself. Today we have the Internet, what better teacher! You can watch and learn through You Tube... And it's free!

Right! well i've had a teacher for 7-8 months, played quite long hours, he didn't pay attention to techniique, and we were "progressing" quickly ...
Guess what ... INJURY. My right hand aches even if i'm ot playing, i have a new teacher that has told me to restart from zero ... I now cannot play more tha an hour a day.
Piano can be very agressive with your hands if practiced intensely and without supervision. Take it slow, and if you can, get a teacher, and a good one at that.

I learn Joe Hisaishi - Spirited Away (Inochi no namae) myself without supervision and this is my first time start practice without knowing how to read notes. So far I almost completing master the score.

If you know how to play, research and overcome your technical difficulty, you are a teacher of your own learning.

Well, not trying to scare you, but the worst case scenario would be that you would be unable to play at all, and the problems could possibly impact other parts of your life - pain, repetitive stress injuries, carpal tunnel, and focal dystonia all come to mind.

As far as where the problems could occur: posture, tension, improper use of your body, rhythm problems, unevenness of tone, and fingering all come to mind. I'm sure the teachers can come up with a much longer list of problems that they have seen.

First, you can't see how you are playing. We are too focused on the process of playing to really pay attention, we don't know what clues to look for, and it takes someone watching us play to locate many of these problems.

Second, when you do develop a bad habit, it takes at least 10 times as long to fix the habit as it does to develop it in the first place.

I am learning without a teacher at the present, but as soon as I have the time and the money I am going to find a good teacher. To keep from learning any bad habits, I read all I can about technique, relaxation, posture, etc., and I pay very careful attention to these things when I practice.

But I know that I will avoid those habits and learn faster with the help of a good teacher. Most of us who really want to play well will benefit immensely from that second pair of eyes and ears.

Thanks to all

of course thanks dragonpiano for the precise answer (and kinda scary indeed, but that's how reality is)

well I'm already playing bwv999 at maximum bpm so I guess I might be in danger (and I play a lot)

I'll look for a teacher next september then.
I hope that the first 3 months of self-learning wont be that bad when I'll see the teacher

I don't think that it's necessarily BAD to learn without a teacher, especially if you already know how to read music and understand the fundamentals. However, I think that same thing that makes piano endlessly fascinating for every pianist is the very thing that makes first starting out on the piano very frustrating.

I think that a very good instructor can limit the overwhelming choices of what to learn first and speed your progress through those sometimes tedious fundamentals. I think that folks that learn well on their own are people who study/read a lot on the side already. Learning something new is frankly hard often frustrating work and working with a teacher helps alleviate unnecessary struggle.

IMHO most of us will not develop bad habits that will harm us that much. If it hurts, this is supposed to be fun - stop when it hurts.

No question one on one instruction will always be one of the better options. IF you can 1) find an instructor that is qualified and 2) will teach what you want to learn. A lot of things have changed in the last few years.

University classes are now offered via the Internet. An instructor's lectures are transmitted to several campuses via the Internet. Instructional DVD's and workbooks now make self study an economical option. One feature that is missing is instant feedback.

This forum allows the adult student the ability to discuss and receive feedback. Which is one of the fundamental wants in adult education.

Some of the Internet classes now offer forum discussion with the instructor dropping in with comments.

Times are changing ...........

Are you using a technique set of books? If so, there should be fingerings in there. I think if you've come up with your own fingerings for scales, you'll have an issue relearning that, but there are so many web sites with info on stuff like that. I do think that if you're learning on your own you need a good book or use a good web site.

The other important thing is to have good posture and hand position so you don't injure yourself.

I don't think you're going to harm yourself studying on your own. With a really good teacher, you'll make progress faster, but on the other hand, a bad teacher won't do much for you.

An inexpensive way to learn is with a college beginner keyboard class if your community college offers them, and most do. I know in our community we have a fee waiver for low income students or families and it costs nearly nothing.

There you could learn some of the basics, get a good piano book, and get some ideas. You'd probably get to play some simple pieces in a student recital too.

Otherwise, I do think that beginner piano lessons for an adult or older teen aren't critical as they are for a child.

thanks it is very instructive

actually I do not play any scale or exercises.. I go straight forward to the pieces I like (and that means Bach lol), and there is no fingering so I have to improvise (btw I know how to read a sheet, I was a drummer, its not the same thing but I can manage)

as I said in another topic, I have blisters on my fingers, so it appears Im the guy who will develop bad habits
and Im kinda curved on the keyboard

but ok I will definitely look for a teacher after the summer

I had lessons for 2 years in my mid-teens, and then didn't play for ~ 30 years. I've not had a teacher since then, but I've certainly been learning a lot.

I think the worst bad habit is tension (tenseness), which can lead to tendonitis/tennis elbow, or aches and pains in ones wrists, fingers, palm of the hand, etc. I will have to say, however, that my original teacher didn't address any of that stuff, so it didn't help. What *did* help is that I've played a lot of sports, and I dance, so I am physically aware of my body and how it works, and I know very well that tension inhibits speed, coordination, and, in the case of piano, musicality. So I do use this forum and other musicians as sources of information and models for how to play from a physical standpoint. I know the teachers here are pretty insistent that a good teacher will help to avoid that, but I frankly think that teachers who can help to avoid that are not in the majority. I may be flamed for that but I've had some "lessons" from teachers since I re-started and none of them said a word. And it's not because I was perfect.

So, I think the fingering, reading notes, good practice habits, listening, playing music you like, etc, *can* be learned without formal lessons, from a myriad of sources. And there are people here on these forums who are doing so. I think the body awareness is extremely important, but I think it can be learned from sources besides formal piano lessons, if one is responsible for ones self.

In the end, whether one learns with or without formal lessons comes down to personality, at least to me. For some of us a lot of the fun is in the discovery process as well as the playing, and we learn in a different way than formal lessons allow. For others, the base put down by formal lessons is what gives them the wings for later. For some, the progress markers they get from working toward specific formal goals, with or without a teacher, gives them great satisfaction. We're all different.

YMMV -

Cathy

I played for years as a kid, my first college major was music ed (which is about teaching classroom music not piano pedagogy, although piano was my main instrument)...I have returned to piano for over a year after 20 years of not playing. I play advanced level music. I play well enough that people have asked me to teach their kids (not meaning to sound immodest...I sound OK to the average person).

Not only would I not consider teaching others...I have a teacher and would not consider not having one. Once I decided to start playing again the first thing I did was find a good teacher.

Why? I can play better, learn music faster, and improve the music so much more with a teacher than without. I want someone who will watch me for bad habits that will limit or even damage my ability to play. I want someone who knows stuff I don't so I can improve my skills.

Some people will say they don't want a teacher because they "only want to play for fun"...well, I personally think that playing well is fun (about the most fun you can have with your clothes on), and not playing well is not fun at all.

Many of the errors concerning posture and technique are unknown by the student playing the piano.

And, even if known, which is unlikely, those errors are typically not noticed by the student as he or she plays.

I have posted before about how there are similarities between playing the piano and playing golf, in that you can have a perfect set of golf clubs, study books and videos on how to hold and swing those clubs, and still be off in some degree unknown and/or unnoticed by you so that your game is hindered, and you could possibly injure youself.

That is a major reason why a teacher, functioning as an outside observer who knows what to look for, is essential for good progress at the piano.

You cannot get a book or website to do that for you.

When I picked up piano, I considered self-teaching for a while but thankfully, someone referred me to a teacher and I'm glad I went that route. I knew the basics of music theory and I did have lessons for a very short while when I was younger so I didn't start from scratch, but having a teacher helped a lot. When you're starting out, your attention is centered on just playing the right notes so there so many things that you could miss that a teacher can point out and correct. Some things : correct rhythm? Correct counting? Correct accentation of the beat? Loud left hand? Unless one has been exposed to music and piano for most of his life, I doubt those are things that can be noticed and picked out easily.

But aside from that, one thing I like best with having a teacher is that it gives me discipline and momentum. Some method book pieces I would've given myself a pass still need polishing up for my teacher. I refine the piece more until I actually hear a semblance of musicality in my playing My weekly lessons give structure to my learning too : I set personal goals for the week, like polishing and getting a pass on X piece working on a new X piece at a performance level for my teacher, etc. It's nice having a critic to evaluate your playing. When I get a pass on a piece, it's only then that I can confidently say that I can play it decently

I sort of find self-teaching to be much more efficient, at least for me. Because of my distinctive learning methods, I have never been able to collaborate well with an instructor. My prior experiences with instructor have resulted in disinterest for playing as well as schooling in general.

I am currently in the process of teaching myself now that I have coextensive equipment. Eventually I probably have a professional evaluate me once I excel to a level worth judging for further suggestions.

In my opinion, you cannot pick up bad habits when teaching
yourself, because when you teach yourself, you will naturally
learn in the way that best suits your individual physiology
and psychology. Pianists pick up bad habits in formal
piano lessons, because when you take lessons, you will
have to learn in the teacher's way, which is his way
of playing, not yours. And when you try to do something
in someone else's way instead of your own way, that's
the worst kind of bad habit you can have.

I had nine yrs. of classical lessons as child from
5 reputable teachers, and during those 9 yrs. I
accummulated so many bad habits that eventually
I had to quit, because I could make no progress.
When I restarted as an adult 20 yrs. later, I found
that in order to progress I had to throw out
every last thing I was taught and develop a way
of playing that suited my own physiology and psychology.
Till this day I am ever vigilant of any previously learned
ways of playing showing up in my technique, and if
I detect any, they are immediately removed.

Do you know how to stand? How to sit? How to walk? Then OK, you can teach yourself.

I never had any injury problem until I started college. I had a pretty good teacher in high school and I improved pretty fast. I started having major tendonitis problem once I started college. Looking back I realized that those teachers were teaching bad habits and playing tense because a habit for me. It took years and years to undo the damage.

I looked for a classical piano teacher around the time I was finishing college. I didn't get to study with him for long because my tendonitis became really bad, but it was very invaluable.. he really showed me how to practice.

So in my opinion, a teacher can be very helpful if you can find a good one.. but you're better off studying on your own than having a bad teacher.

The bottom line is that no teacher is better than having a really bad one.

This is why so many people prefer to teach themselves. They have had horrendously bad experiences with totally incompetent teachers, some of whom are equally nasty.

On the other hand, I have never spoken to any pianist who was lucky enough to find a really good teacher who did not feel the teacher was of enormous benefit.

There is a famous saying: "A man who represents himself has a fool for a client."

If you choose to teach yourself piano if you have the money for lessons and the opportunity to study with a really good teacher, then you have a fool for student.

Hey Albany, good question. I find myself agreeing with just about every post so far, as the answers depend on your goals and desires.

If you want to play with technical precision and at the highest level possible with your skillset and talent, then a teacher is an absolute must, IMHO.

If your goal is to just have fun, play what you like from various styles and gendres, and are not concerned with "building a foundation for the next level", and you have common sense (stop if/when it hurts), and have a source for help once in a while, then self-teaching is certainly a viable option.

I happen to be self-teaching. I am not worried at all about posture and "correct hand position" as I do not care if I ever reach level whatever. I want to play what I like, and if I hit a barrier, then I ask for help here. I will never be asked to play on stage, and if by some error of the universe I were, I would politely decline. Not what interests me.

So, to answer your question, precicely, my opinion is there is very little danger in teaching yourself IF you understand you may have to relearn some things and you have enough self-control to stop if/when it hurts. A good teacher will help you learn "correctly" and you will more likely advance faster with help and guidance than without.

I like to say that learning a musical instrument without a teacher is like making love by yourself. It just misses the point.

But I won't say that, it gets folks riled up.

I don't believe that the importance of a teacher is limited to the question of bad or good habits.

It is above all a question of musicality.

What is written on a score is only the beginning. There is as much or more that is not written and that you will never start to approach or even imagine without a teacher.

This is not only true for a major work, but for the most simple and basic music as will.

The role of a teacher is above all to transmit a musical capital.

My take on this is that if you have never had lessons with a teacher, then you should probably try it. At least then you can form a more educated opinion whether lessons are for you.

In my case, I took lessons as a teenager and majored in music education in college, but my instrument was clarinet and I hoped to become a high school band director. Didn't work out.

Thirty-something years later I started piano again and took a few months of lessons before stopping. Why did I stop the lessons? I have enough confidence in my own abilities and judgment that I think I can progress well enough without a teacher. My goal is to play an hour a day after work to unwind, to learn some of the old standard classical works, to learn to play the blues, and to have fun. I think I can do that without a teacher's help. But if I did not have the musical background that I do, and the years of lessons as a teenager and young adult, I would not be able to make much progress on my own.

I have discovered (during my relatively short time playing the piano) that even playing a single note is an extremely complex task from a biomechanical perspective, there are simply so many ways to do it. You can alter the position of your arms and wrist. You can let your finger fall on the key or you can push the key etc. Poor technique may lead to sloppy playing or injuries.

I would recommend taking lessons to begin with from the best teacher possible to set you on the right track. After that... well Roger Federer doesn't even have a coach anymore!

Teacher or coach? Now that throws another light on the subject ...

I "learned" some hatha yoga from a number of books. When I got some live teaching/coaching I discovered that much of what I was doing needed correction.

I tried, and failed, several times to learn a new TaiChi form from books and videos. I failed - there was simply too much to think about to be able to observe myself working through the form while staying relaxed and breathing properly.

Maybe somebody can do it, but I, as an experienced performer, coach and teacher, am not capable of making a video that can give you everything I would provide you in a first lesson at the piano (or a 2nd or a 3rd, etc, for that matter). I don't think it's possible.

So - IMO - if you want to learn to play the piano properly, find a teacher and take some lessons. Learn how to sit at the piano, how to produce a musical sound with the least amount of tension. If you want to go off on your own after that, you'll have some chance of doing it without injuring yourself through improper technique.

Heck - even Mozart had lessons! Last time I checked, I thought he was probably more talented than all of us put together.

"Do you know how to stand? How to sit? How to walk? Then OK, you can teach yourself."

It's only because of my physical therapist that I know how to sit properly. But I cheat, and it shows in the small of my back every morning when I get out of bed. I developed BAD HABITS because I never understood my own basic body mechanics. Now, I might be different from other people, because I'm naturally very flexible. But I learned that only by injuring myself through long misuse of my back muscles.

Translate that to piano playing: If you have the discipline to teach yourself, you may do well. But if you develop problems, get a good teacher to help.

And as far as discipline: I took the summer off from lessons and have been doing some work on my own. I have learned that the weekly lessons require more of me than working on my own. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I were beyond the advanced beginner stage. Only you can know how you feel about your skills.

I completely agree with this. I am currently learning a very simple Scarlatti sonata and have only been playing 11 months. I watched Youtube videos of the performance, checked wikipedia and Google for baroque ornamentations and downloaded 2 different editions of the score. And still, within 10 minutes of talking, my teacher was able to convey so much more about the musical content and how to convey it with your playing that I felt borderline embarrassed by how much my playing was missing before that, even though I did pretty much everything that's printed in the score.

Also, the entire lesson, we devised ways of relaxing my playing to very substantially improve the tone I was producing. I just don't hear how "bad" my tones sound when playing since I'm so engrossed in the notes...

Of course, no one forces you to take a teacher, and you can greatly enjoy the experience without one.

I can think of one good reason to have a teacher - a second (and more experienced) set of ears.

Often times, a piece sounds perfect to me at home, only to find out the many shortcomings of it at my lesson. My ears have had a year of training. My teacher's have had 40 years. They can hear things in a way a beginner cannot.

Finally someone who knows that they don't know! And how do they know that?

The rub being ...

as you pointed out. And it's not as though it were easy to tell if you are totally inexperienced. Actually can an experienced person tell?

People ask this question all the time and get all kinds of answers because it is too general a question. It depends on what someone wants to learn to play. No concert pianist got there without a teacher. On the other hand, plenty of musicians like Billy Joel or David Nevue are self-taught. It's like asking could I be an Olympic class athelete without a teacher. No way. Do I need a teacher to do some jogging everyday for fun? Probably not. Will I get injuries if I'm not careful? Possibly.

I think the question "do I need a teacher" is missing the criteria "to what level?"

Do I need a teacher to learn to play at the intermediate level? No.

Do I need a teacher to learn to play at the advanced level? Depends on how talented you are.

Do I need a teacher to play at the concert pianist level? Always.

I wouldn't say it's bad to learn without a teacher. It is difficult though.

Maybe the question you should ask yourself is.....

What are the benefits of having a good teacher?

Then you have to decide if it's worth the cost. Some feel that it is and some clearly don't. Each to his own.

Regardless of level or type of music, I think a good teacher is better than no teacher. Is it essential? As others have said, it depends on your goals.

But to me studying with a good teacher is like learning to read music. Lots of musicians do and lots don't. But I doubt many who do regret it and I suspect many who don't wish they did.

I think that is why it's a good idea to go on recommendation if possible.

I'd want that recommendation to be qualified. If by a student I first want to know what that student's priorities are. If by a teacher or musician, possibly likewise.

If you were to recommend a teacher, what kind of information would you give the student in terms of why you are recommending this person? Would you first find out that student's priorities?

Yes, and to me, the cost where I live is about $2,000 a year for weekly half hour lessons, plus the commute and lesson time of 3 hours a week, the stress and anxeity of performing for the teacher each lesson, and criticism from the teacher and guilt on my part, etc. Balance that with how much benefit the teacher would provide and I am pretty clear it's not worth it. For me, the non-financial costs makes it not worth it for now. Especially there are periods when I simply have no time to practice for weeks, but I can't put the lessons on hold.

Lessons are like having a Netflix subscription, you are paying the same monthly payments whether or not you watch a new DVD. If there were such as thing as lessons on demand, then I would definitely go for it. Again, if playing the piano is a hobby, then it has to take a backseat to everything else going on in life like taking care of the kids, the job, professional certifications and exams, a second degree, etc.

Ideally, I would like to have 6 2-hour in person lessons a year. But who teaches like that?

Billy Joel did have lessons.

Billy Joel had more than just some lessons, which could mean he studied with the little old lady down the street: His father was a pianist, and his other teachers were all top level pros, including a Julliard Graduate.

From the Wikipedia article on Joel:

Joel's father was an accomplished classical pianist. Billy reluctantly began piano lessons at an early age, at his mother's insistence; his teachers included the noted American pianist Morton Estrin and musician/songwriter Timothy Ford. His interest in music, rather than sports, was a source of teasing and bullying in his early years. (He has said in interviews that his piano instructor also taught ballet. Her name was Frances Neiman, and she was a Juilliard trained musician.

My teacher and I meet about once a month for two hours. I've been playing for thirty six years, so while I don't need hand-holding, I do have questions at times and I welcome the feedback from a more experienced performer. Most teachers would be flexible with scheduling when working with advanced students because they know the student can work out many problems on their own; but for someone learning basic technique, this method might not yield great results.

Anything is worth a try, though. Perhaps you can find a good teacher to meet with occasionally. See if it makes a difference in your playing. I think each person needs to decide for himself what works best.

Hmm, I stand corrected. I always thought he was self-taught, which explained he style and skill, but now I don't know. If he was taught by top level pros, it's shocking his mediocre results. Perhaps this is an argument for not having a teacher. (kidding)

In an ideal world it would be great to find out what a student wanted from lessons and then recommend an appropriate teacher. It rarely happens though. Most people have no idea what their priorities are or if they have they are often misguided or totally unrealistic. Occasionally I get calls from people who are very clear about their wants and needs and I will refer them to another teacher if I feel that what I offer will not suit them. But most just want to learn to play the piano.

I too am a self taught player, I have been studying for the past six months and I have to say that I play quite well. But on the other hand I would love to have a teacher to help me with study techniques for learning the major and minor chords. I want to get a better understanding of "Music Theory" fully.

As for habits, I had a habit of writting in the letters above EVERY NOTE (this get's tiresome) which I was told via this forum is a terrible habit. So I have recently learned how to site read *still working on*

But much luck to you finding a inexpensive teacher.

Learning some music theory will help you in your piano studies more than a teacher at the beginning stage. There is so much information online, you really don't even need to purchase a method. You could run a search for free online beginner piano lessons, music theory, scales etc....

I think that's an eminently feasible model. Not all teachers would be willing to accept a student under those conditions, but some would. Essentially, what you're looking for is somebody who would be a coach or consultant rather than a traditional teacher. It will probably take a fair amount of calling around, but I bet you COULD find a teacher who is willing to work with you like that. Just be specific and upfront about what you want in your phone calls to prospective teachers.

When I started organ lessons, my general feeling was that this was just a hobby, and I was very busy with my job and limited on time. I set the parameters with my teacher that I would take lessons every two weeks. Unfortunately my progress was minimal, and my teacher grew frustrated with my lack of commitment. I'm glad he confronted me, and we determined that I should take every week, and I realized I needed to put more effort in preparing for these lessons. It paid off with my overall enjoyment of the instrument, and the ease in learning it brought to formerly challenging pieces.

There is another factor to this "what do I need a teacher for" discussion which runs almost constantly throughout these forums.

I currently have a student who was self-taught. He is middle age, and has progressed to being able to play at a basic simple rock piano level. He is knowledgeable about music, and plays the banjo quite well.

He now wants to go further, and play piano in a band, which he does with the banjo.

However, just about everything he does technique-wise at the piano is atrocious. His hands are like stiff claws...he can barely move one finger at a time without the entire hand becoming involved...he has no wrist flexibility as he plays, plus he cannot read notation.

If he had studied piano with a teacher, much of those problems would likely not be there (unless his teacher was totally horrendous).

So to those folks who just want to play the piano for your own enjoyment, and thus do not think that you need a teacher, fine.

But later on you might find that you want to do more, to go further, only to find that your playing is so hobbled that you cannot progress, but instead must go back and unlearn all those bad habits you taught yourself.

That is where my student is. He came for lessons so he could go further, but I cannot build upon the stiff and tense foundation he constructed...it must be torn down, and rebuilt from the ground up.

You're right. I should give it a try. I am in the camp that recognize the value of having a teacher but not being a child, just am too old to put up with too much. Paraphrasing Jack Nicholson liberally, "it's like dating. When I was young, I would do whatever it took to get a date. Now, if I had to put up with personalities, I am just as happy single." I think having a teacher is the same way, but of course, if I make the effort, I may find one that will be a mutual fit.

My teacher taught me how to do a slur yesterday. I cannot imagine teaching myself how to do it...there are just so many nuances necessary in doing a good slur. It's easier to do it wrong than right. I'm wondering how people who self-taught themselves ground up are able to judge if they're playing something correctly or not. How do you know if you're good at playing a piece? I thought I was doing well with a piece (correct notes, correct rhythm) until my teacher pointed out some things that aren't written in the method books. This has improved my musicality, I believe. Obviously there are a lot good self-taught players. They must have an INCREDIBLY GOOD ear.


It all boils down to preference and probably natural talent, but since I'm anal about a lot of things including piano (perfectionist, anyone? ), having a teacher suits me perfectly.

I've done it both ways, and here is my take on it:

http://clariniano.wordpress.com/2009/03/...with-a-teacher/

Meri

I believe Billy Joel took classical lessons. He's told the story of bullies beating he up as he went to and from lessons. But he said he had the last laugh and all the girls...

I posted this on this thread earlier about Joel:

Billy Joel had more than just some lessons, which could mean he studied with the little old lady down the street: His father was a pianist, and his other teachers were all top level pros, including a Julliard Graduate.

From the Wikipedia article on Joel:

Joel's father was an accomplished classical pianist. Billy reluctantly began piano lessons at an early age, at his mother's insistence; his teachers included the noted American pianist Morton Estrin and musician/songwriter Timothy Ford. His interest in music, rather than sports, was a source of teasing and bullying in his early years. (He has said in interviews that his piano instructor also taught ballet. Her name was Frances Neiman, and she was a Juilliard trained musician.

you don't need a teacher to learn some basic piano playing skills, you don't need a teacher to teach you scales and arpeggios, and you don't need a teacher to even gain some good techniques if you know where to find the guidance and resource to help yourself. nothing cannot be learned on your own. it's pretty much what i had done before i met my teacher. actually, the first time my teacher saw me playing, he's happy to see that i didn't really have some bad hand position or habits (except pedaling part) and a very little need to be corrected.

so, it all depends on individuals, and one who's self taught doesn't necessarily mean having worse techniques than the one who has a teacher. but once you reach a certain point, you would want to find a teacher for some guidance that you may have missed or don't know where to find. i did find myself longing for a teacher after a while when i didn't see myself improving anymore. so i finally found a teacher and had about 3 year lessons with him. a teacher does help, since he/she can show you something you don't really know or realize, and some technical details that you may never think of, no matter how many books you may have read about piano playing. and a teacher can tell you what you have done wrong in your playing which you yourself may never notice.

even though you would need a teacher sometimes, you don't need to take lessons forever. after a few year intensive lessons (depending on your goal), you may have learned enough to work on your own again, because a good teacher will teach you how to practice and work on pieces, rather than let you depend on him/her on everything. any professional pianists, once they graduated from school or started their own performing career, they no longer need to take regular lessons anymore, which is the same idea. but even a concert pianist would take occasional lessons or coaching lessons from some teacher, just to make sure their performing is on the right track. well, for most of us, playing piano as a hobby, whether we want a teacher or lessons again will depend on individual.

Signa...how is that supposed to happen? How and where do beginners find this "guidance and resource"? Isn't the "guidance and resource" you speak of actually a "teacher"?

And how would the beginner know that the "guidance and resource" was any good unless it was coming from a qualified teacher who could demonstrate their qualifications by actually playing the piano?

Please do not say they can get this "guidance and resource" from a book or video. Those resources, although potentially helpful, cannot observe and give feedback, which are essential in the first lessons, and thus are no subsititue for a real live teacher.

I believe a teacher is most important the first few months to get some basics down. Even scales and arpeggios are not as straight forward as you would like to believe.

Amen!

books and videos count for resources and guidance, which is not just an argument. of course, they are not equivalent to teachers, which i don't even argue about. but if you say only a teacher is necessary to playing piano and there are no other ways possible, then i would say you're wrong.

that's why i said it all depends on individuals, some may need a teacher to begin with and some don't. a plenty of beginners can learn scales and arpeggios on their own, the fingerings and playing techniques of which can be found in books and videos and many online resources. does a teacher help with scales or arpeggios or anything basic? absolutely. but is a teacher an absolute necessity for learning scales or arpeggios? NO, not always! that's my point!

How will you know if you're one of the lucky ones?

The group of you who think you can learn the piano without a teacher are thoroughly fooling yourselves. The only reason you shouldn't take lessons is if you don't really care to learn at all. That is he bottom line, it is completely essential, even if you only want to have basic piano skills.

Find a good teacher and let him know what you want out of your experience. I want to play around, have fun? I want to be a professional? a good teacher will help you get there. You'll move faster than you could ever imagine compared to working around and trying everything on your own. TRUST ME NO BOOK WILL REPLACE A HUMAN TEACHER, period.

It's not "bad" to learn without a teacher. Really depends on what you want to learn. Going the classical route? A teacher is probably best. Just want to have fun and play for pleasure? A teacher can be helpful but I wouldn't say mandatory for success.

i certainly didn't fool myself for 5 years learning on my own. who said that you can't do it? teachers are not essential to piano learning to some people, unless you're talking about the goal of becoming a concert pianist or a performing accompanist. not everyone has to learn to play with a teacher to begin with. but apparently some people do need a teacher in the process.

no one glove fits all, and so, don't make it sound like it's a "must". besides, we are not talking about concert pianist type of learning process, but adult beginners'.

+1

This subject comes up a lot in this forum, for obvious reasons. Many here are not in formal lessons (I don't use "self-teaching" exclusively, because we all learn from someone in some way besides just ourselves - books are written by someone, youtubes have someone playing, this forum - but many are very much self-taught, exploring the keyboard and hearing what sounds they want and how to put them together) and are enjoying everything we're doing. Many here have teachers and love that process.

I think it behooves us to not be dogmatic about the way that suits us, and to respect and appreciate what we all offer here.

JMHO, of course

Cathy

plus two, to 'no glove fits' all.

The only group more irritating than the self-taught 'don't need no stinkin' teacher' crowd is the group that dogmatically claims 'without a teacher, you can't learn and you'll probably have a serious injury.'

And, on a pedantic note, frequently what gets labelled 'teaching' in this context is what would elsewhere be called tutoring or coaching. That's worth keeping in mind, if you are an adult beginner with reasonable expectations but coming into the arena with a set of assumptions developed in a life well spent outside the musical sphere.

"Without a teacher you can't learn"...Good grief! That is quite an overreaction.

What most people have said is this:

1. You certainly can learn without a teacher; You can learn scales, arpeggios, pieces of music, etc. thru books, videos, You-tube, etc. That is NOT the issue.

What is the issue is that you will not know if you are also learning something that will limit you now and in the future. This is usually in the area of technique, which is how a person physically interacts with the instrument as they play.

As a beginner, by definition you do not know everything, so the possibility exists that you will learn hard-to-undo technique habits.

Plus, you cannot observe yourself as you play, so even if you knew what to look for, you could not see it. That is why even the great pianists go to master classes or have mentors to observe them.

2. "Probably have a serious injury"...well, truth be told, it could happen.

Not every self-taught person is injured by their playing, so "probably" is also an overreaction.

But poor technique at the piano can cause injury...just as poor technique at the computer keyboard can cause injuries such as carpal tunnel syndrome.

Is carpal tunnel syndrome serious? It is very painful and debilitating, often requires an operation to correct, and the operation is not guaranteed to be successful.

Is that serious? I think it is.

This is probably the most misunderstood concept. Whether you're going to be a concert pianist or just 'noodle around', the technique is the same.

Rocket88--

From your post, you appear to fall in my second catagory.

Stop mincing words and knock off the alarmist nonsense. Or else provide some evidence for the unqualified substance of your assertion, which is that is physically dangerous for an adult beginner to attempt to learn to play the piano on one's own.

You can hurt yourself getting out of bed in the morning. You can hurt yourself mowing the lawn. I guess you can hurt yourself playing the piano. I know you can hurt yourself moving a piano. I dunno anybody who claims you should take lessons in how to get out bed, mow the lawn, or move a piano (maybe hire that last one done!) Anybody else think playing the piano is so dangerous?

Depends on your definition of dangerous. But if it's art you're wishing to achieve, a teacher's the only route. It's a shame so much space is wasted on this debate. The real debate is how to find a good teacher - they're quite rare.

I agree with your first statement, but the veracity of your last statement depends on where you live. Over where I live, there are LOTS of excellent teachers. Lots. Quite difficult competing with them for the same pool of students.

But to answer the original post--If you wish to play anything more advanced than a Clementi Sonatina, you better find yourself a qualified teacher. Anything below that goal, you can suit yourself.

Furthermore, here are some common problems I've seen among the self-taught pianists:

1) They can't read music, or not quickly enough to sight read anything significant. Music theory is a foreign language to them.

2) Their rhythm is atrocious. Unless they can imitate a recording, you can throw rhythm out of the window. But even when a recording is available (or the piece is familiar to everyone) they still play with poor rhythm because of other technical problems that cause frequent hesitation.

3) They have no appreciation for good fingering. Trust me on this one: even students who have been taking lessons for years may or may not have good fingering habits, but self-taught pianists will use nonsense fingering, which leads to poor phrasing, wrong notes, unnecessary stretches (quite dangerous), and really bad music.

4) They just sound awful. I cannot tell you how many parties I've been to where random people just go up to the piano and play the first few bars of Fur Elise, and they play wrong notes, wrong fingering, and wrong rhythm!

Well, good thing is I can read music and having a good rythm (I was a drummer)
Also I'm a very sensitive person so I believe my interpretations are not awful

But I understood ur point, my goal is to play classical piano at a near-pro level,(let's say 10 years of learning, I'm actually 22), so I will need a teacher no doubt about it
I just need to find a good one then

Seneca, if its evidence you want, here are 2 places where you can look:

1. Use the search engine on these Piano World forums, and search for "pain". I got sixteen pages of posts, not all about pain and injury from playing the piano, but quite a bit is.

2. Google "ergomatic typing" or "carpal tunnel syndrome" or "typing injuries". It took just a few minutes to find the following:

Here is a small sample:

"A repetitive stress injury is an injury to the tendons, muscles, or soft tissue of the body caused by simple repetitive motions. Many people who use computers extensively experience repetitive stress injuries from typing, mousing, and having ergonomically unsound workstations. Typing injuries can become very serious, especially if they are not addressed. On a low level, typing injuries can cause people to be out of work for a period of time while they heal, but people can also be severely crippled if they do not address the issue. Fortunately, steps can be taken to prevent typing injuries, and to support your health in the long term."

form : http://www.wisegeek.com/can-typing-cause-repetitive-stress-injuries.htm

Typing at the computer keyboard, and playing the piano, are very similar, and doing them with improper technique can (can, not will) give similar results.

Keyboardklutz:

You say: "But if it's art you're wishing to achieve, a teacher's the only route."

May I ask your definition of "art?"

Seneca,

Also try a google search on terms like percent of musician playing with injuries. Considering the numbers that are quoted (89% comes up), it's a wonder that there are any musicians playing without injuries. Making music seems to be an inherently dangerous occupation, and that's not even counting the number of bar fights you will get caught in because of playing the theme song from Rawhide.

My sister (who has Fibromyalgia) received advice from her physical therapist on how to use a vacuum sweeper or lawnmower. My dad had to have instructions on getting out of bed because of back injuries. Getting instructions on the things you mention is not uncommon; unfortunately, it doesn't happen until someone is injured or has a serious illness.

I don't advocate that you must have a teacher or you will get hurt. My viewpoint is that there are many things that we cannot observe or identify in our playing without a teacher, that almost everyone can benefit from the right teacher, and that all the teachers on the forum comment on the bad habits of the self taught pianists. Why spend ten times as long fixing a mistake when you can avoid it in the first place.

Rich

Seneca, here is a link directly related to this topic:

http://musiced.about.com/od/beginnersguide/a/injuries.htm

Here is the first paragraph: (my emphasis)

Musicians, especially if you're a beginner, are prone to injuries. Injuries vary depending on the instrument you play and how you play it. If you are thinking of learning to play a musical instrument or if you're the parent of a budding musician, it is very important to know the common types of instrument-playing injuries and how to prevent them.

I'm glad I found this link...it will certainly help people make an informed decision.

This is what I'm for the most part teaching myself now, scales, chords and reading music. I'm also "noodling" a bit to get the satisfaction of playing something and improving my reading. I had a "Music For Elementary Teachers" class in college (years ago)so I have had some minimal instruction before I started on my own. As far as injuries, I already have carpel tunnel from cashiering years ago so as soon as I feel the first bit of burning and swelling I back off and figure out what I'm doing to cause it.

Unfortuneately being self taught is the only route available for some of us. I waited for too long until I could get a piano. I'm not going to let it collect dust until I can take formal lessons. I'd rather run the risk of developing bad habits than risk looking back years from now and thinking "I wish I had learned to play piano." I think that is the biggest danger of not being self taught.

What is called the Tao is not the real Tao.

And you need a teacher to teach you that?

Yeh, Lao Tzu.

...Rivers of sweat dripping from his furrowed brow, Bluekeys eyes the terrifying behemoth with dread. He moves a step closer, but jumps back as a fearsome growl rumbles from the bass section. "Just my footstep shaking the strings," he tells himself, but he isn't convinced. The pearly-smooth keys are so tempting, the thought of sweet melodies and vibrant rhythms so compelling. Dare he risk it? One wrong move, one improperly curved digit, one indolent slouch of the shoulders -- and he faces years of medical conditions with long unpronounceable names. Eternal agony! Total paralysis perhaps!

Bluekeys runs in horror from the diabolical contraption. I have no teacher.... I'm doomed! DOOMED!

[ Bluekeys runs in horror from the diabolical contraption. I have no teacher.... I'm doomed! DOOMED! ]



You're good, Bluekeys. I needed that today - thank you!

Barb

Hm. I've been part of the walking dead for nigh onto 20 years myself - and now I have company! Bwah-ha-ha-ha

Cathy

Surely having a teacher is better, but teachers aren't free. I could do some extra work on the side to earn money for lessons, aside from studying but I think ill pass. There's only so much hours in the day, and what would be left after work would be sleep and not all that much else, not much what you'd call a life.

So I think ill pass since I don't have the economy in my current situation, and rather focus on studies and enjoy my life besides that, with learning the piano one part of it. I'd rather learn by myself to play the piano, than never learning it or delay it for a few years. I'd rather not look back regretting in the past of things I didn't get to do, as you only live once.

Ill just live with the risks of higher risk of injury, not being able to sight read as well etc, and not getting to the highest level, cause that's not my goal and its highly unrealistic at this age as well, I should still be able to play beautiful music eventually.

Schumann on hearing Chopin play op 25 no 1.

I respectfully disagree. Get a good teacher no matter what level you want to achieve.

How do you know you're not fooling yourself? That's the whole point. I didn't mean it in an offensive way, but I do you think you're fooling yourself and in my opinion it is a must. You think you may be playing well, and actually, you may play fine/ok, but I assure you that you're missing basic things that a teacher will find on your first day that will multiply your skills greatly. It has nothing to do with being a concert pianist. Even if you only aspire to play for yourself, friends and/or family, its very important to get lessons from a qualified teacher.

As well, say one day you decide to get serious, you won't believe how much you'll have to relearn, having to start from scratch.

I never understand why people are so against getting a teacher, its like they are bent on proving something. Money is one thing, I can't give you money for a teacher, but if you have it, get one, even if you go once a month.

If you had gotten a teacher from the beginning, I bet you'd be beyond what you do now just after the first year, and more, I could bet on it.

I suppose a teacher is great support for the prevention of laziness and neglecting areas that need the most practice, that is if you are unable to train yourself from making these mistakes. The traditional way of playing has probably been tampered with way too much.

Good post Rico.

1. keyboardklutz: "...if it's art you're wishing to achieve, a teacher's the only route"

2. angelojf: "May I ask your definition of art?"

3. keyboardklutz: "What is called the Tao is not the real Tao."

keyboardklutz: I suggest that you be less obtuse. If it is your intention to argue that a teacher is the only way to achieve "art," I do not think your above reply will have all the self-taught players out there who wish to achieve "art" just rushing out there to get a teacher...

Why can't a self-learner at the piano achieve musical art? Is your definition of piano art just classical music? I do not think that Brian Wilson had piano lessons, and surely he has composed some of the most beautuful musical art that I have ever heard.

There seems to be an implicit assumption in this discussion that it's specifically about beginners learning with or without a teacher. That's logical in an Adult Beginners' Forum, but this place is for restarters, too, who may be well-grounded in the basics of playing from prior lessons in which they advanced securely beyond the beginner stage.

I have some questions for the teachers who are adamant that one must have a teacher: Are you referring to beginning players in particular or is that advice more general? How long do you think one must have a teacher? Do you agree that the goal of learning under a teacher is ultimately to be able to teach oneself?

Steven

[sighs heavily] I had pretty much sworn not to enter this thread, as this topic has come up in the past with much the same results: strong opinions held on all sides and few people changing their opinions.

But for what it's worth, here's my own take: (a) There are many routes to music and piano. (b) If you have a good teacher, you will have better technique, and you will make progress faster than if you're slogging it alone. (c) But if you're happy with your progress, as it is, without a teacher, then that's all that matters. Period.

I don't have a teacher for a mixture of the usual reasons, primarily time-related and the reality that few teachers would be comfortable with me setting the agenda for an "all Einaudi, all the time" curriculum. Am I as technically proficient a pianist as I could be? Hell no. Am I happy with my progress now? Yes. Am I comfortable with the apparent contradiction between those two assertions? Absolutely.

What I don't like to see on this forum are blanket statements that teachers are necessary or essential. Mostly because I don't think it's true, but also because I'd hate to see any newbie become discouraged or decide not to even try to play piano if they aren't taking formal lessons... I'd also hate to see any self-teachers conclude that they can't find support here. Because that's not the case.

Amen.

Cathy

I also really don't want to get involved here. But if anyone has an answer to SV's question, I would love to hear it!

If art is what you're trying to achieve, then trusting your intuition is the main point. Something that can't be taught but can be cultivated.

I asked those questions because I thought it was important to challenge the subtext of this discussion. The needs of beginners and returnees may be vastly different, after all, and the ABF is for both groups. I sensed that contributors here were referring to beginners in their comments, but it wasn't clear.

Those questions were, in fact, addressed and answered in this recent thread in the Pianist Corner:

Lessons for life -- or not?

Steven

I don't know that I'm adamant that everyone 'must' have a teacher (after all, what do I really care what others do if they're happy?) but I do believe if you really want to improve to the best of your ability, you need a teacher.

My own teacher is completing her PhD in piano performance, so not only did she have years of pre-college lessons, she has a BA in piano and an MA in piano pedagogy, is completing her PhD in piano, spent over a year in Europe between undergrad and grad school getting a performer's certificate from a conservatory there...***and SHE still has a teacher*** (who is a performing artist as well as a university instructor). If She feels that she gains a benefit from lessons, you can better believe I think it's a good bet that anyone posting in the adult beginners forum would too.

I'm a returning student who played to advanced levels up to a music ed degree in college (don't confuse this in any way with a 'piano performance' degree, though). After 20 years away from the piano there is no doubt that I needed a teacher to ensure that I was not only correcting bad habits from before but bad habits from how much I've forgotten in the intervening years.

There is a big difference between trying to be "all you can be" as a pianist (by which I just mean getting all you can out of the time you can spend at the piano) and doing the 'go it your own' route.

For me, I can't envision getting so advanced that I no longer see the need for a teacher, personally (I am never going to get to the point where my own teacher is, for example). But then I live in an urban area near a university with an excellent piano program, so I have multiple good options for advanced teachers.

For beginners...well honestly yes if I'm being truthful, I think it is the *most* essential for anyone, even someone who wants to go with out a teacher as soon as possible, to get some "how to correctly interact with the piano" beginner's lessons. So I guess I'm pretty opinionated about that but I believe it's an educated opinion. I certainly don't harass people on this forum who choose differently but if I am asked my opinion...then that's it. I think you do need a good teacher because I've seen so many bad examples of people who didn't have one.

And, yeah, that means a good teacher, which I realize can be hard to find for some folks...my own first 2 teachers were pretty bad, and basically the equivalent of self-teaching in terms of technique. But you shouldn't use the existence of bad teachers as proof that you don't need a teacher at all. You just don't need a bad teacher.

Edited to add: I think playing the piano WELL is Fun. Playing the piano poorly is not fun, it is frustrating and discouraging as well as being potentially physically damaging. This is what I tell people when they tell me they only want to "have fun" or want their kids to "just have fun". Having a good teacher means you play better and improve faster. That's fun in my book. If others disagree that's no skin off my nose. I have no business lecturing others about their decisions but at the same time I'm not interested in being lectured for my opinions on the subject.

This is the part I don't quite get:

I played soccer on an intramural team when I worked at a college - a faculty-staff team, in a recreational league, against college students. I'd never played soccer in my life. Not only did I not have a teacher, we didn't have practices. Probably half the team had fairly significant soccer experience, but we were decidedly not there for anything but exercise and fun.

Some kids, I hope, play soccer on the playground at school, or in a vacant lot, or in a park.

I ski-raced as an adult. I didn't start skiing until I was 23. I didn't take lessons right off the bat, I just went out with some friends and had them tell me how to slow down and turn using a snow plow, and then I did it. I did the same when I started skiing parallel. I started racing by just going thru the gates. We had a couple of seminars on how to read a course. Once in awhile we'd have a coach come and give us an all-day Saturday workshop. At 34 I went to national finals in my age bracket for NASTAR.

I played golf by playing in a company recreational league. I have zero idea what my handicap was.

I rock-climbed for several years. There were no lessons.

I played softball on a company team. Same with tennis. No lessons. Oh well.

All of these are sports in which one can be seriously injured. I sustained some of those injuries - knee ligaments, blood on the rocks, etc.

Piano, too, can lead to injuries, tho I didn't get a starter's case of carpal tunnel from piano, but from data entering inventory all day long at a job. Which job I quit because, quite frankly, piano was more important to me.

Out of those activities, ski racing and piano are probably the ones I was/am best at. I spent a lot of time - several nights a week, and every weekend - skiing. I spend a lot of time on piano. I play with a band, and we gig a dozen times a year.

So, for what I want to do, and for many others, on piano, why do some folks think piano should be so much more likely to be done with "bad" or "dangerous" habits than soccer, ski racing, tennis, golf, or playground baseball? I'm asking seriously. It is absolutely true that one can play a higher level of baseball if one plays in a league with good coaches, and a higher level of soccer if one plays club soccer, and have a lower handicap in golf if one spends time with the club pro, and same with tennis, and one can play at some level in piano if one has a "good" teacher (which, many times here, has been said to be hard to find) than perhaps I may ever reach. But why is it, by so many, ignored that a level of piano equivalent to intramural soccer, or park baseball, or weekend golf, is so satisfying to so many people. Are those folks simply not supposed to play piano, because it can be dangerous, or lead to bad habits? Those of us who gig a dozen times a year (some paid and some not) and learn in non-formal ways *have* reached a proficiency and level of satisfaction which is enormously rewarding. And I'd believe that of those "weekenders", too, for whom piano is a weekend hobby.

So I'm with Monica and ProdigalPianist. Why the lecturing about someone else's choice? I have nothing but admiration for those who are taking lessons, playing Chopin, going for grade levels, and getting great satisfaction from the challenges they get from formal lessons. I love their recital entries. I make it a point to listen to the Chopin recitals. It's not the way I do it, but I admire people who are doing it their way - whatever way it is. I am distinctly with the comment above that "no one needs no stinkin' teachers" is a silly stance.

I just don't understand the opposite view, either - that piano is somehow different from a myriad of other activities that people get immense satisfaction from at a myriad of different levels - that somehow piano has to be played at the same level as club soccer. Or that it's dangerous - more dangerous than recreational skiing? I don't think so.

So, I'll vote with a viewpoint I made in an earlier post. It behooves us to appreciate that all of us are different, and to not insist that our way is the only way for "everyone" to do it.

JMHO, of course.

Cathy

I actually mostly agree with you here (except I would avoid the word "essential"). I think it is terribly difficult for somebody to teach themselves piano completely from scratch. I started off with a background in accordion, which gave me a head start. I also had a piano teacher friend whom I consulted on maybe 3 occasions right after I got my piano. She immediately pointed out that I was sitting WAY too close to the piano; taught me what the pedals were for; showed me how to hold my hands in a relaxed position; how to roll my wrist when playing arpeggios; and a few other tidbits I didn't know from my accordion days. Having those pointers early on helped me immensely, and I don't know if I would've caught on by myself.

But for restarters, or people with the basics under their belt, I don't see any problem in going on one's own, and that's the population I had in mind when I wrote my earlier comments. To be honest, I don't really see any problem even in the complete newbie going on one's own, as long as the newbie understands the disadvantages involved. So maybe that's where I don't agree with you, because I do believe it's possible to have fun even when you play poorly.

And I can even conceive of situations where having a teacher is worse than going on one's own, and that's when you have a rigid and/or incompetent teacher who sucks the joy out of piano so that you end up quitting.

Now I'm wishing I had simply quoted this to begin with and said "+1". Cathy's nailed the main issue, in my opinion: recognition of the various paths one can take in the journey toward piano, and respect for people's autonomy in choosing the path that is right for them at the time.

Monica and I see eye-to-eye often See my "amen" above -

Cathy

I think there's a need for recognition of the various stages of proficiency different people are at on their journeys. It has obvious significance to the issues underlying this whole discussion.

Steven

Monica, Cathy, I join you both in a joyful AMEN! .... as I go rushing back to the piano.

Barb

I'm not.

Well, it looks like many of us here have managed to agree on a common-sense, respectful consensus on this.

Now, I hesitate to throw the cat among the pigeons, but what has previously struck me (and the reason I didn't want to join this thread) is the lack of respect sometimes shown on this matter.

Here's something that happened a little while ago, I will mention no names. Someone starts a thread, says that they have a piano and will start lessons in the future, but want to start playing now. What can they do? Well, several people reply, and I do too, and I suggest a way to begin to get come finger-co-ordination going, and to begin to train a musical ear. Somebody else posts that if the OP follows my suggestion, they will develop bad habits that will take months of practice to eradicate.

Perhaps I should also say that I am relatively new to the forum, and I don't know what kinds of topics come up all the time. Clearly I had hit a nerve in what I said.

I managed at the time not to respond in the anger I felt. But I can say now that I feel the post was sarcastic and disrespectful to me, as I had posted in good faith.

Now, I'm thick-skinned enough not to let something like this get to me. But I'm also amazed (as a newbie here) that people can get so het up about something like this. Someone else want to learn in a way that you don't think is right? Let them!

I've been finding this true myself. There's a certain amount of "clique-ish" and condescending behavior and it can be very frustrating.

Yes, het up about art. For some, what else is there? For others, hmm...

I didn't see that thread, and agree that your suggestions about finger coordination and ear training seem innocuous enough that the response you describe does sound like an overreaction.

There's a fine line, though, between safe (and even beneficial) activities for new players and problematic (or even hazardous) ones, and a novice won't know the difference. Neither will the piano neophyte (nor the newcomer to Piano World) be able to distinguish between the sound counsel that predominates here and the specious suggestions regularly dispensed by at least one member.

Advice is sometimes given from a position of ignorance, incompetence, dogma and even malice instead of knowledge, skillfulness, open-mindedness and goodwill. I'm sure some people take that for granted and read what's offered with the appropriate filter; others, whether susceptible to snake oil or just naïve, do not.

I surely understand that people should take responsibility for themselves and their decisions. I also understand that art and artistry really are worth getting het up about! Unfortunately, inexperience means vulnerability to danger and nonsense alike. I doubt that those with the benefit of experience wish to control anyone's choices by counseling caution; I think instead that they hope to prevent damage that can and should be avoided.

Steven

A really good mentor is invaluable, but it's much worse not to play at all. Never find excuses or reasons not to play.

Having had a chance to contemplate the issue even further and poke around in my brain as to why I really think beginners (especially beginners) truly need a good teacher/coach/mentor in regards to the 'physically interacting with the piano' issues...I guess it's this...

Due to poor instruction as a child, I know how frustrating it is to get to a certain level of playing (say, intermediate) and "hit a wall" so to speak. To have difficulties that it seems I should not be having...for things to be difficult or impossible that really should not be.

Then to have to relearn things and correct, not only bad habits, but improper technique, takes so much longer and is about as discouraging as anything I can think of regarding piano. To have played (or at least thought you were playing) intermediate music fairly well and to have to go back to the beginning and relearn basic skills is disheartening.

It can just ruin any pleasure you get from playing.

So, since the people who bother to come here and post (or who ask me in real life) are generally excited about piano and learning to play, I'd like to see them avoid that particular pitfall. When you are just starting, there's no way to know what is going to end up 'grabbing' you about piano and no way to really guess what your goals might be down the road.

Even if you start playing "just for fun" and think you'll never need to have 'this' skill or want to play 'that' kind of music...you might change your mind as you learn to play and get more involved with piano. So why not get the best start possible to be able to play the widest variety of music?

I have violin envy. I took some lessons in my early 20's. When I was looking for a teacher and told someone that I "only wanted to play bluegrass" that person (an accomplished violinist) answered "Find the best teacher you can. Learn the best technique you can. Then you can play ANYthing you want." I ended up loving classical strings music, which I NEVER expected to do. Too bad I can't play violin worth a darn.

I just started viola. It's an absolute joy transferring my knowledge of piano technique to strings. I find every few seconds re-adjusting my posture as the body tries to wriggle out of consciousness (become tense). Go back! Intonation is the ultimate teacher.

keyboardklutz: Viola? Cool... Do you have the capability of recording two tracks (one with you playing viola and one with you playing piano?) I bet hearing that back would be a great teacher as it gives you feedback as to how you'd sound playing a duet...good luck with the viola!

Not quite. The best intonation comes from hearing the note you are playing resonate with the open strings. Much of the time you tune to tone not pitch. Another instrument could well distract. But I shall be doing duets with others.

I have mixed emotions about this topic. I stated off with a teacher years ago. However, I find that today there are so many great resources available that I wonder if you need a teacher. We now have DVDs, MP3, YOU TUBE, etc... Also, if you are into learning some cool gospel, R&B, Soulful blues, good luck finding a teacher for that. At some point to play what you really like, you might be forced to teach yourself. Many great African American musicians are self-taught for this reason.

Can't agree more! A bad teacher is worse than no teacher but a good teacher is invaluable! I have made tremendous progress both technically and musically since switching to my current teacher a little more than a year ago. I consider myself very, very lucky in this regard.

I agree. A good teacher would watch your progress carefully. I learned more with my current instructor than on my own. And it all started in a group class which eventually lead to private instruction.

- Mark

I have taught myself in less than a year and am now learning to play the organ with a teacher. Even though a teacher is useful to correct errors and bad habits but after all, they cannot change them. They are there to give you guidence which, if you pay enough attention to spot it yourself, you correct yourself.

However, it does help to hear what things are meant to sound like and to be shown how the best way to play is. Teachers are also good for confidence boosting!

A teacher is not nessecary but is useful.

Here is an interesting quote on the topic taken from The Contemporary Keyboardist from an interview with Charlie Banacos: " I don't think that anyone really needs a teacher! That may sound like a strange thing for a teacher to state, but I really think that if a person wants to play, he'll learn by listening, imitating, and altering, and comparing, and creating. I think teachers have a purpose and that is basically to save the student a lot of time. For example, I can show someone something in five minutes that might take him five years to put together if he tried on his own. Literally."

My experience would concur with the quote.

John Novello's Contemporary Keyboard book is a great resource. I have also just picked up his contemporary etudes for my students. Lots of great sight reading in different styles at an intermediate level, a resource that I feel has merit. -I do not own shares in his company.

Hey...I thought you were against self-teaching due to the possible development of bad habits?

So, you know how to do these things?

I agree that it depends on the person, their goals, their enjoyment, and their physical feelings.

Here's the "just me" part:

I've been playing now for 4 years as an adult after 7-8 years of lessons as a child. I can't afford lessons, but if I could I would take them in a heartbeat. I have made very little progress since I got my piano. Why is that?

1. I don't have a weekly deliverable--needing to prepare for a lesson. So I often don't practice at all. A teacher would help me be more disciplined.

2. I tense up at passages that are difficult. I work them and work them, but I always mess up in the same places. I think it's like sports psychology--I think I'll fail, so I do. A teacher, I think could help me work through my brain.

3. After all this time, I still struggle with things like bringing out the melody. I sing alto, so I think part of this is because I LIKE hearing the harmony. But an objective, experienced listener could help me identify and correct.

4. My music director is a pianist, composer, and gives lessons. He plays all kinds of music from classical to jazz to show tunes, to folk. He's very positive and encouraging, and inspiring. I am not positive, encouraging and inspiring to myself. I would love to take lessons with him.

5. I like to play ragtime. My forearms literally ache after I play/practice. I gotta think I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking a teacher could help me.

6. Being in a teacher's studio would give me an opportunity to play live recitals and possibly duets, which I would really enjoy.

So for me, if I could afford it, there would be no question at all. None.

Ragtime takes a Chopin technique. I'm convinced Scott Joplin had a teacher who understood arm weight.

Keyboard Klutz...In one of my previous posts you told me off for not having a piano tutor. I was just curious as to your post in this thread....

I'm not really clear as to your point...and I'm not being rude here. Are you saying that it is important to have a tutor? I assume from your earlier post that maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

I'm saying how important to you is walking well? ...and for that most need a tutor. And how important to you is playing well? ...for which most would also need a tutor.

Aaahhh...I get you now. You were just a bit cryptic.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Hi, kbk!

Cathy

Maybe I should rebrand to keyboardcryptic!

For poor guys like me who cannot afford to hire a teacher, I rely on ebooks and video lessons on utube. I found a great free ebook on www.pianoencyclopedia.com. I also have a few 2nd hand books on piano. I is really hard to learn piano without out a teacher. Nobody can identify and correct the weaknesses and strengths of your playing.

I like! I like!

Cathy

And here's a link for the poor "guys" who cant afford to hire a walking tutor: http://www.wikihow.com/Walk-Like-a-Catwalk-Model

Undone