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#123216 - 08/29/06 04:16 PM Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
I tried doing a google search but can't find the Renner website. I know Mason Hamlin and Estonia use these hammers and was under the impression that many of the top European makers also use them.

One of the reasons I'm curious is that the tech in a high end piano store told me today that they were poor hammers. I believe the store uses mostly Steinway hammers although it is not Steinway Hall.

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#123217 - 08/29/06 04:20 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
You couldn't have tried very hard.

http://www.rennerusa.com/

Yes, Renner blues are very poor hammers. \:D
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#123218 - 08/29/06 04:26 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
I found the renner usa site but I didn't see any information about Renner blues. I couldn't find the European Renner site which is the one that may have info about their hammers.

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#123219 - 08/29/06 04:31 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17701
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Thanks for posting that link, gryphon. When you click a few times to get to the description of the hammers, they have a diagram of three different types of Renner blue premium hammers (standard molding, longer molding, and universal molding). I didn't realize these different types exist, and now I'm curious as to which are on my piano. Very interesting!
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#123220 - 08/29/06 04:33 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17701
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#123221 - 08/29/06 04:44 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Thanks but I'm still trying to find out which pianos use these blues.

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#123222 - 08/29/06 04:52 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Renner doesn't state which pianos use which hammers. Sometimes that changes. Hammers are selected not only by price but by suitability for the particular application (scale design, etc.)

Just because piano A uses one hammer and piano B uses another in no way implies one is inferior to the other.

Your first clue should have been the salesweasel implying that anything other than Steinway hammers are junk.

Ask him if NY Steinways and Hamburg Steinways use the same hammers. I don't think they do.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#123223 - 08/29/06 05:00 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
_________________________
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Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
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#123224 - 08/29/06 06:20 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by CTPianotech:


[/b]


Or write, apparently.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#123225 - 08/29/06 07:10 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
I initially wrote that Steinway Hamburg uses renner hammers. It then occured to me that I didn't know this for certain, so right away I deleted the contents of the post, until I could do a little check to confirm.

In any case, Steinway Hamburg, does use renner hammers, but to their own specs. They do not use renner blues.

Steinway NY, ofcourse, uses their own hammer.

Rich
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
Ritmuller/Pearl River

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#123226 - 08/29/06 07:37 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by CTPianotech:
In any case, Steinway Hamburg, does use renner hammers, but to their own specs. They do not use renner blues.

Steinway NY, ofcourse, uses their own hammer.
[/b]
Which, of course, contradicts Steinway claim that lacquering soft hammers is the only way to achieve the "Steinway sound".

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#123227 - 08/29/06 08:21 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
CTPianotech Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 1473
Loc: CT
The Steinway folks describe it as the 'NY Steinway sound'
_________________________
Rich Lindahl
Piano Restorations in Central CT
D-C installations, Player-Piano installations/service
Ritmuller/Pearl River

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#123228 - 08/29/06 08:28 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
Oh. I didn't know they put in a "NY" qualifier. I won't forget it now. Thanks.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#123229 - 08/29/06 09:02 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Knabe uses them too.
That's three...
_________________________
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers


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#123230 - 08/29/06 09:12 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Climber Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 224
Loc: Colorado

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#123231 - 08/29/06 09:50 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Niles Duncan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Pasadena, CA
From an old RennerUSA catalog from 1994: "The Premium Blue hammer is a special execution designed and produced for North America, and are ideal for every high quality piano, European or American, particularly the great vintage American pianos produced in the past... represent a careful recreation of the great hammers originally used by American piano makers early in this century."

The Premium Blue hammer as far as I know was created in the early 1990s at the behest of Lloyd Meyer, a former president of Steinway during the CBS era, who at that time started and owns RennerUSA, a company that imports and markets Renner parts in North America, as a hammer to be marketed to rebuilders for use on Steinways and other vintage American pianos.

Whether they actually "represent a careful recreation of the great hammers originally used by American piano makers" is a matter for debate. Many rebuilders swear by them, others swear at them. They are a modern hard, hot pressed hammer and while they may be a very nice hammer for some European pianos, I hardly think of them as having much in common with the vintage American hammers they were originally touted as being a replacement for.

Niles Duncan
Piano technician/rebuilder, Pasadena, CA
www.pianosource.com

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#123232 - 08/29/06 10:12 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
RachFan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1316
Loc: Maine, U.S.
Unfortunately, Baldwin specifies Renner Blues now, which, in my opinion, are too bright and rob these fine pianos of their intended sound. Hopefully, the restoration project on my own Baldwin Model L will get underway soon. The replacement hammers will be Ronsen Wurzen, not Renner Blues.

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#123233 - 08/30/06 05:40 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Does anyone know which hammers are used on Bechstein, Bluthner, Boesendorfer, Fazioli, Steingraeber, Sauter, Foester, Grotrian etc.?

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#123234 - 08/30/06 07:29 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I have heard several recordings that used the Ari Isaac "Cadenza" hammers, and they sounded great.

http://www.pin.ca/ari/voice.htm

GP

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#123235 - 08/30/06 08:03 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
My Pramberger JP-185 has blues.
_________________________
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====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#123236 - 08/30/06 08:06 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
I heartily agree with Nile's statements above regarding Renner Blues and American Pianos. The remanufacture of my Mason CC2 included Renner Premium Blues, which produced a harsh, strident sound that I was really uncomfortable with. No amount of voicing could create what I was after, so I hung a set of Abel Select Series instead. I cannot praise these hammers, and what they have done for the sound of this magnificent instrument, enough!!! They produce a rich, lush, "growly" sound right out of the box. The treble is clean, yet complex, and every note is clearly discernible, yet laden with gorgeous overtones......things I NEVER heard with the Renners.......and I did not have to do a single thing in the way of voicing them. They are even, balanced and smooth across the entire length of the keyboard, even at the breaks! Can you tell I am pleased? \:D
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#123237 - 08/30/06 08:47 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17701
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
So tell us, CC2, do you like your new hammers? \:D

This is a very interesting thread. I loved the sound on my M&H with renner blues when I bought my piano. I like it even better after voicing it this summer. Would I be even happier if I were to change to Abels? CC2 has me thinking. But how could I tell? I'm guessing that it would be a considerable expense to try to experiment. I'd hate to order in a set of hammers, change them in, and then say "naw, I think I liked it better the other way."
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#123238 - 08/30/06 08:53 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
ChrisKeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1267
Loc: Dallas, TX
CC2, My own Baldwin L was refurbished about three years ago with Abel hammers, and I couldn't be more pleased with them. At my request my tech has voiced them here and there, but never as an entire set because it has not been necessary. One of the pleasant surprises to me has been the clarity and quality of the upper registers.

RachFan: It will be interesting to hear your evaluation of your L after the Ronsen Wurzen hammers have settled in. If I *ever* get the spare change, I'll make a professional recording on my L and send you a sample. Perhaps you can do likewise with your L.

Chris

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#123239 - 08/30/06 09:51 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
Does anyone know which hammers are used on Bechstein, Bluthner, Boesendorfer, Fazioli, Steingraeber, Sauter, Foester, Grotrian etc.? [/b]
I was told by James Reeder (he is the importer of Bluthners for USA) that new Bluthners have Abels.
I was told by someone else that you can order Bluthners in any of three hammer felt hardnesses, and that mine has the softest.
My tech says they are pretty hard.

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#123240 - 08/30/06 10:09 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Starting Over Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 1290
Loc: Toronto
Yikes Monica, don't even think about it! From what you've written about it, I'd say you love your piano the way it is.
_________________________
Buy some good stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't buy it.
Will Rogers


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#123241 - 08/30/06 11:18 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
When I had new hammers put on my (American) Falcone, the tech chose Abel over Renner. I was shocked at how little voicing needed to be done. I really liked the way the piano sounded in the bass and tenor - no more harsh sound. I wasn't too happy with the higher treble. But I think a little voicing would have solved that problem.

That said, I definitely do not think (as if I know) that Abels would work on a Bosendorfer. Which is probably why they use Renners.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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#123242 - 08/30/06 11:54 AM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Derick,
I agree that the Renners probably are more suitable for the Bosie, but these Abel Selects are really incredible on the M&H, given what I was looking to achieve.

Monica,
If you did change them out, and didn't like them, you could just rehang the Renners, as long as you purchased the Abel Selects already hung on the shanks and flanges. Granted, it is an expensive experiment, but given my own results, one I would endorse without hesitation. By the way, this "Select" series hammer is markedly different, in several ways from Abel's "regular" line. They are wider, and beefier than the others. The felt is different as well.....lots of resiliency.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

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#123243 - 08/30/06 12:36 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
I wonder if the Abel Selects are heavier than the Renner hammers? It's an important question for anyone thinking of going from one to the other.

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#123244 - 08/30/06 12:45 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:

Just because piano A uses one hammer and piano B uses another in no way implies one is inferior to the other.

Your first clue should have been the salesweasel implying that anything other than Steinway hammers are junk.
[/b]
The point is that if many highly regarded piano manufacturers use Renner blues it would imply they can't be as bad as the tech felt they were. And the person who said they so bad was not a sales weasel but a very highly regarded tech who had no reason to lie(although he could be wrong!) because it was already clear that I could not afford any pianos in the store(all were above $40,000).

So far it seems (if people are correct) that Mason Hamlin, Estonia, Baldwin, and Boeseondorfer use Renner blues. Any others to add to the list?

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#123245 - 08/30/06 01:10 PM Re: Which pianos use Renner blue hammers?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17701
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Mason & Hamlin used Renner blues at least until recently. But this summer they changed their action manufacturer (they now call it an M&H /Wessell, Nickel & Gross action), and I don't know if that includes a change in the hammers or not.

Starting Over, you're right; I love my piano and see no need to change my hammers. But I gotta admit to having my curiosity piqued by all these glowing references to the Abel Selects. And I will try to remember that when it comes time to replace my hammers. Considering my piano is only a year old, AND I love the sound, it makes no sense to replace the hammers at this time.
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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